save the whales, SAVE YOUR MOTOR
03-04-10, 07:00 AM
#276
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
This is an elegant solution and better than the RA adapter. That adapter was a headache due to interference with the stock twins oil return line. But for this you would need to mill a groove for another o-ring corresponding to the one on the OMP or you're going to get oil leaks.
Pomamferrari, the way the oil system is designed is that it oil pressure lubricates the pump's drive shaft plain bearing surface and the spill-off fills the small reservoir on the OMP's face.
There is no real pressure on the reservoir. Mine operates with a tight fit on the OMP’s boss and a very light coat of 515 Loctite gasket eliminator.
Barry
I saw one solution where a guy did something like this but with a second o-ring to prevent oil leaks.
Pomamferrari, the way the oil system is designed is that it oil pressure lubricates the pump's drive shaft plain bearing surface and the spill-off fills the small reservoir on the OMP's face.
There is no real pressure on the reservoir. Mine operates with a tight fit on the OMP’s boss and a very light coat of 515 Loctite gasket eliminator.
Barry
I saw one solution where a guy did something like this but with a second o-ring to prevent oil leaks.
03-04-10, 07:24 AM
#277
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
I have two issues with this:
1) where to put the reservoir
Trout2 is putting his behind the power steering pump frame. Mine is above my turbo intake (see previous thumbnail).
2) what happens when your pump fails and you're not aware of it, or a line gets pinched or fails....bye bye motor
I agree that premix is safer and simpler. Especially for racers where you are max output all the time it is easy to mix for that.
But for street cars, how much carbon build-up would you expect running those dog rich ratios for safety?
When Howard makes his 200 mph attempt he surely will be richer than 256:1 or 128:1. Probably more like 50:1. The OMP does this already. But only when you need it.
again, there is a reason all two stroke racers delete pumps like this and pre-mix: zero possibility of failure...is it really worth saving 15 seconds at the pump? keeping it simple always wins in terms of reliability
1) where to put the reservoir
Trout2 is putting his behind the power steering pump frame. Mine is above my turbo intake (see previous thumbnail).
2) what happens when your pump fails and you're not aware of it, or a line gets pinched or fails....bye bye motor
I agree that premix is safer and simpler. Especially for racers where you are max output all the time it is easy to mix for that.
But for street cars, how much carbon build-up would you expect running those dog rich ratios for safety?
When Howard makes his 200 mph attempt he surely will be richer than 256:1 or 128:1. Probably more like 50:1. The OMP does this already. But only when you need it.
again, there is a reason all two stroke racers delete pumps like this and pre-mix: zero possibility of failure...is it really worth saving 15 seconds at the pump? keeping it simple always wins in terms of reliability
Barry
03-04-10, 07:36 AM
#278
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
There was a good question asked in single turbo that was regarding fuel cut and premixing tuning with the PFC. No answers :-(
I don't think this is much of a problem because there is no load on the seals, the time is short, so the residual oil will handle this easily.
That's my concern re: premix. Someone brought it up and it nags on me.
I don't think this is much of a problem because there is no load on the seals, the time is short, so the residual oil will handle this easily.
That's my concern re: premix. Someone brought it up and it nags on me.
Barry
03-04-10, 09:42 AM
#279
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At 50:1 I really have to believe you would see plug fouling and/or high rpm power loss. This isn't a two stroke engine, that is a ton of extra oil, and it's just not necessary to lube these tiny seals. Again, Idemitsu reports racers running 400:1, and yes that's on a roadcourse, full throttle.
03-04-10, 09:48 AM
#280
Racecar - Formula 2000
At 50:1 I really have to believe you would see plug fouling and/or rpm power loss. This isn't a two stroke engine, that is a ton of extra oil, and it's just not necessary to lube these tiny seals. Again, Idemitsu reports racers running 400:1, and yes that's on a roadcourse, full throttle.
03-04-10, 12:41 PM
#281
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
At 50:1 I really have to believe you would see plug fouling and/or high rpm power loss. This isn't a two stroke engine, that is a ton of extra oil, and it's just not necessary to lube these tiny seals. Again, Idemitsu reports racers running 400:1, and yes that's on a roadcourse, full throttle.
If it burns well in a motorcycle 2 stroke engine it will do the same in a rotary.
"This isn't a two stroke engine, that is a ton of extra oil, and it's just not necessary to lube these tiny seals. Again, Idemitsu reports racers running 400:1, and yes that's on a roadcourse, full throttle."
Howard's straight will be a little longer than a road course, maybe 10x. Recheck Mazda's tests on the preceding page for amounts of oil.
Barry
03-04-10, 04:06 PM
#282
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Howard's straight will be a little longer than a road course, maybe 10x.
03-04-10, 04:44 PM
#284
It's not a 4-stroke. Nor is it a 2-stroke. It would be a 1-stroke if stroke we're even relevant.
the problem is that the lubicative effect of premix is dependant upon how much 2 -cycle is in it and how much of it makes it to the friction surface. Not the number and/or size of the friction surfaces.
It's really not.
50:1 isnt much oil.
super rich meaning what? sounds like random speculation to me.
you have yet to display any of this abundant evidence and have still yet to state how many miles you've put on your "case study" in those five years...which is 1000x more relevant than the period of time youve owned it.
All the oil needs to do in a rotary is lubricate a few tiny seals, with very small surface areas.
It's apples and oranges.
You don't need much oil to do the job
200:1 is PLENTY, and, in my opinion 400:1 is adequate for the street.
We need more science here, and less random speculation.
The fact is running super-rich pre-mix ratios robs power
and there is abundant evidence 1/2 oz per gallon works perfectly well. I've been running that ratio for five years and I drive the car hard.
03-04-10, 08:36 PM
#287
I just installed the OMP block off plate. Jesus Christ....Way harder than I thought it was going to be.. The plugs are so hard to get to..you have to take off the UIM,and Primary fuel injectors, and its still hard as hell to get to them... Oil is leaking out of where my OMP used to be after installing the block off plate...I guess its just the remaining oil that was left in there, most of it was black....I'm glad I did it, BUT GEEZ WHAT A PITA...
Max
Max
03-04-10, 10:49 PM
#291
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It's not speculation when you have case study after case study (after case study) that clearly demonstrates 1/2 oz per gallon is more than adequate.
03-04-10, 11:43 PM
#293
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Why on earth you would anyone use pre-mix AND four cycle dino juice is truly beyond comprehension. Defeats the entire purpose, you may as well not even bother with pre-mix at all.
Last edited by no_more_rice; 03-04-10 at 11:47 PM.
03-04-10, 11:45 PM
#294
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03-04-10, 11:51 PM
#295
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Mazda decided that the pumped up twin turbo FD motor needed a bit more lube. i guarantee you every Mazda engineer wanted to put a tank in the engine compartment that would be filled with 2 cycle ashless oil. it was no doubt decided that this would not be a highly popular task for buyers... and many would just not fill the tank. the answer was to draw crankcase oil. four cycle oil is not suited for combustion chambers as it leave significant residue, carbon, that when combined w the overly rich fuel mixture just gums up the motor.
you have two options:
rework the pump so it draws 2 cycle oil from a custom tank (Rotary Aviation sells such a mod).
or remove the EOP and mix 1/2 oz per gallon w your gasoline... 1 oz when you are tracking or are on the dyno.
presto... your rotor will look like this
you have two options:
rework the pump so it draws 2 cycle oil from a custom tank (Rotary Aviation sells such a mod).
or remove the EOP and mix 1/2 oz per gallon w your gasoline... 1 oz when you are tracking or are on the dyno.
presto... your rotor will look like this
03-05-10, 12:42 AM
#296
2) not many many many case studies
3) you have posted nothing relevant to back up your claims
4) you have provided no information refuting any of my assertions
5) yes, it is very hard to reason with people like you
There have so far been zero (count 'em!) ZERO long term, high mileage case studies. You just keep spouting off at the mouth about how hard you drive your car and how you've been pre-mixing for 5 years(Still without a mileage count because it's low, too low to matter). It's also up for debate how much of howard's experience is due to water injection.
Premixing is probably great for race cars that aren't expected to last, or dyno queens that see 15,000 miles between tear downs. You want to keep your housings? You should probably run 2-cycle though the OMP.
03-05-10, 03:30 AM
#297
Turd Ferguson
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Any 2-stroke oil would be fine. As long as it is ashless. A lot folks run other oils than the Idemitsu. I've run the Castrol 2-Stroke oil for a 2 years. Zero problems with plugs. Was a daily driver. It's currently down for non-engine repairs.
03-05-10, 07:14 AM
#298
I just installed the OMP block off plate. Jesus Christ....Way harder than I thought it was going to be.. The plugs are so hard to get to..you have to take off the UIM,and Primary fuel injectors, and its still hard as hell to get to them... Oil is leaking out of where my OMP used to be after installing the block off plate...I guess its just the remaining oil that was left in there, most of it was black....I'm glad I did it, BUT GEEZ WHAT A PITA...
Max
Max
Yet you just used someone that is doing just that as an arguement in a previous post.
03-05-10, 07:51 AM
#299
1) not a case study
2) not many many many case studies
3) you have posted nothing relevant to back up your claims
4) you have provided no information refuting any of my assertions
5) yes, it is very hard to reason with people like you
there have so far been zero (count 'em!) zero long term, high mileage case studies. You just keep spouting off at the mouth about how hard you drive your car and how you've been pre-mixing for 5 years(still without a mileage count because it's low, too low to matter). it's also up for debate how much of howard's experience is due to water injection.
premixing is probably great for race cars that aren't expected to last, or dyno queens that see 15,000 miles between tear downs. You want to keep your housings? You should probably run 2-cycle though the omp.
2) not many many many case studies
3) you have posted nothing relevant to back up your claims
4) you have provided no information refuting any of my assertions
5) yes, it is very hard to reason with people like you
there have so far been zero (count 'em!) zero long term, high mileage case studies. You just keep spouting off at the mouth about how hard you drive your car and how you've been pre-mixing for 5 years(still without a mileage count because it's low, too low to matter). it's also up for debate how much of howard's experience is due to water injection.
premixing is probably great for race cars that aren't expected to last, or dyno queens that see 15,000 miles between tear downs. You want to keep your housings? You should probably run 2-cycle though the omp.
03-05-10, 08:20 AM
#300
Let's see if its case study or speculation...
From Amsoil
As you could see 1:100 is max dilution with their synthetic oil.
Now lets look at how the famous Idemitsu 2 cycle oil for the rotary was tested when their patient was placed..
If I'm reading correctly, they used ratio of 1:20 (oil to gas)!
All I can say is, there is no real world testing to show just pre-mix alone will make your engine last longer.. There are way too many variables and not enough real world testing (Yes, real world as in high rpm, low rpm, low load, high load, decel, idling, cold, hot, extended driving, high mile drives, etc. etc.) of just pre-mix.
Last edited by Herblenny; 03-05-10 at 08:23 AM.