Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I've had a chance to talk to the head of SpeedSource team about premix (which they use castrol 2 cycle at 1oz per gallon of fuel) but they do not recommend on street driven car.

wolf_9782

what do you mean? are you trying to say that its not recommended to premix 1oz per gallon on a street driven car? did he say what ratio to use off the track? thanks.

btw, i used to only use 1/2 oz per gallon on the street and 1oz per on the dyno/hard driving. now i just use 1oz per all around. car was running great before i had to bring it down for modification.

jeff p

can we run two cycle oil in the crank case and leave the omp in place so the system only uses two cycle only period.. just a thought?...will the two cycle oil lube the engine properly or not??..

Jeff

Sandrock

iTrader: (26)

I use Amsoil Dominator Race Spec Oil in my Dry Sump OMP system..

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

No. It wouldn't be able to lubricate the e-shaft and bits as effectively as they would require (not to mention tubros moving parts).

The 2-stroke should only be used in a diluted gasoline mixture (meaning OMP injection or premix)

no_more_rice

Five years and counting for me with Amsoil Interceptor 1/2 oz/gal - motor is tip-top

I'll let you guys know how it looks in another 10 years when I tear her down

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

OK. So I just read through this entire thing over the course of a couple of days. And I don't think there's anything else to add really. I went from being totally for deleting the OMP and pre mix only, to doing both. But my real question is one that has been brough up a couple of times but there hasn't been much talk about it.

On engine braking decel, the fuel injectors aren't firing which means in a 100% pre mix only car, there's no lube for the seals. Now, does the OMP inject oil at all times? Even under engine decel?

I saw where someone (think it was howard. I'm not trolling back through to find the post) said the OMP DOESN'T inject oil under decel which would make that point moot. But it seems very odd if that's the case to have a period of time with no lubrication application.

Anyone know FOR SURE?

no_more_rice

Under decel the engine is not under load, and it's a very brief of time anyway. Remember, the surface area of these seals is TINY relative to the surface area being lubricated in a two stroke via pre-mix. As the Idemitsu rep told me " it doesn't take much".

Far too much random paranoia and speculation on this subject, but the case histories like mine speak for themselves. I'm confident I could pre-mix at 400:1even at the track, and see no additional wear, especially with an high quality synthetic like Amsoil Dominator or Interceptor.

Someone close this thread, it's been beat to death.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

For the last time: Surface area has nothing to do with anything. The lubricative properties of the lubricant ON THAT SURFACE AREA has everything to do with it.

Lesser premix ratio's dont lubricate as well

1 second is a long time a 7,xxx or whatever RPM's without lubrication(read that "turn entry")

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Here is an email I received from Dr. Francesco Iannetti when asked about using Pre-Mix Only on street car.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

virtually all the motors i disassemble are non premix running the EOP. the primary reason they are not running is interior carbon.

while i respect the good Doctor's opinion unfortunately reality must intercede here. pumping dirty carboned up 4 cycle oil into our combustion chambers is not the best option.

if you like your EOP, do the 2 cycle conversion. that works for me.

i prefer nothing but 2 cycle oil in my combustion chambers and around the apex, oil, corner and side seals. as previously posted, in 2008 i pulled my perfectly good 500 hp motor that i had built 4 years prior just to do forensics. i wanted to measure all wear metrics.

the motor had been gaining compression over the 4 years and showed the highest compression just before i pulled it.

the apex seal to groove clearance was between 2 and 3 thou which was exactly as built. the side seals were 3 thou which is up from 2 thou. the apex seal crowns were perfectly rounded as new. there was no carbon build up anywhere, just a dusting.

my motor had been smiling thru 6 dyno sessions averaging 5 hours each with over 25 4th gear pulls for each session. probably 500 third gear pulls on the roads.

yes i run methanol and no doubt the motor has greatly benefited from it.
methanol is a super solvent so if my lube in the upper part of the motor was insufficient the apex seals crowns would be flatted on the leading shoulder. they were not.

without exception every motor i have disassembled that had the EOP removed and replaced w premix showed no premature seal wear.

while theory is helpful, and i theorize lots, when it comes to building motors i am a pragmatist. if it works, it is in my motors.

premix has worked for me since 1983. BTW, my Roger Mandeville and Daryl Drummond built GT3 motors were nothing but premix. during my 35 minute SCCA races, due to the porting, i never ran less than 7000 rpm and shifted at 10,000 rpm.

this has been a long, but IMO, helpful thread. there have been lots of points of view here. i truly believe that the primary culprit is the sourcing for lube by the EOP. i am pretty sure Mazda didn't want to ask people to premix and didn't want to add a proper 2 cycle oil reservoir as they didn't feel people would keep it filled so they gritted their teeth and used the oil sump.

so i don't have a problem w the pump per se, just the lube source.

my recommendation is to either fixture in a 2 cycle tank or junk the pump and premix. 1/2 oz for normal driving and 1 oz for heavy lifting, my mix since 1983.

and for sure, throw some AI at your FD.

howard

no_more_rice

I don't see how you can ask for a better testimony than this

ditto

good advice

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

I'm a professional driver about a year away from getting my BS in ME. I've got enough reading comprehension to see the crap you post for the bullshit it is.
You still havent given us the mileage on your 5 year rebuild. What is it? Like 10,000miles?

You still fail to understand the lubricative properties of a fuel-mix based oiling system, and how a ratio of 256:1 has the same lubricative properties as gasoline that aren't sufficient to lubricate anything more than a door hinge.

Did I mention that the oil is atomized in the fuel, and that most of it is combusted before it lands on and; thereby, lubricates anything?
I think I did.
Because, that's how your fuel system is designed to work. Atomize the fuel in the intake charge and keep it there until it's burnt. Not to deposite it neatly on the housing walls for the purpose of apex seal lubrication, you dolt.

The OMP is roughly 1000x better at lubricating the apex seals when not broken and injecting clean oil. It's doing the job it was designed for, not some sidework bullshit. Supplemental premixing sounds like a great idea, if that's all it's for. But, a purely fuel-mix lubrication system has serious drawbacks that qualify it only for racing and low mileage rebuild situations.

You're so off base.

no_more_rice

About 30k, previously stated

Bah, not this bs again. Cite a source or pack your toys and ride your trike back hom to mom, son.

Like a broken record, but you're still dead wrong. Again, provide a peer reviewed source or hit the road.

LOL. How thick of a moron are you? Do you exist only to hear yourself spout nonsense like this? Have you read ANYTHING Howard has posted about using pre-mix in his 500 hp car or Roger Mandeville racing with pre-mix only? Seriously, go lock yourself in a rubber room and listen to your windbag nonsense all day but to everyone else it's lalalalalalalalala.....

So it works well for racing but not for the street? Again, your retarded anti-logic continues to astound me, you're simply obtuse beyond meaure.

Understatement of the decade.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Wow, you're really breaking records and setting the bar there. Another 5 years and you'll be able to claim your rebuild lasted as long as a stocker. Really great job. Dumbass.

Why should I have to bother? Are you unable to recognize that a 0.4% difference by volume will have no net effect on the lubricative properties of gasoline. Are you bad at math, too? You might as well not run premix at all.

Are you unable to understand the purpose of injectors and diffusers? Do you not recognize that the point of a fuel injector is to optimize the burn of whatever it injects, and 2-cycle oil is designed to burn. Fuel injection lubrication is a byproduct of the system. Fuel and premix happen to land on the housing walls by chance, not by design. You do know how engines work, right?

Are you too stupid to understand that these are low mileage rebuild situations? Next youll tell me that the world was created by an omnipotent being in 7 days. Pure ignorance.

It's really great at eliminating a point of failure(the OMP). It's not so good at effectively lubricating the seals when the fuel injectors arent firing. It also tends to foul spark plugs when an effectively oil-rich mixture is run. An infant could understand that. You obviously have a learning disability. That explains your belief in fairy tales.

I know. We all know, YZF. There's no need to explain.

By the way, I put the important parts in bold so you can have some one read the words to you. Maybe your pastor can spoon feed you technical information, too.

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

These are very good points. Now understand, I don't have a side on this issue. I'm actually in here trying to do some research for my friend's FD I'm building. Mine's getting an LS1 so I could care less personally. While I agree with these thoughts here, it leads me to this question. So if Howard is running say 1 oz per gallon as he probably is.

(which leads me to another thought while I'm typing this... What happens if you're car is only street driven and yet you beat on it regularly? Half the time you're under vacuum and need it NOT to foul plugs which it would be inclined to do under cruising- so you run 1/2 oz. But what about the 1-4th gear pulls on the way to the gym the same day? Now are you not injecting enough oil to lubriacte things? And PLEASE don't say "Yall are beating this to death yada yada yada" Because proper lubrication is not something you overlook if you care about your engine.)

Back to the first point-Howard running 1 oz per gallon. If this ratio is still too low to not be completely atomized, how are his engines not locking up for lack of oil lubrication? I understand the 13b is a wet sump for the shaft bearings and such and I will openly admit I'm a noob at a decent amount of the inner workings of the rotary, so answer me this question. BESIDES the OMP, is there anything else lubricating the apex seals? Or is the wet sump tasked only with lubricating the shaft bearings? If it's the sole job of the OMP to lubricate the apex seals, and 1 oz is still too low to not be burnt by the flame front straight away, what is lubricating the apex seals? Again, this is only if the OMP is only responsible for the apex seal lubing. Someone lemme know.

But if you actually want to grow as an intellectual person, you have to be open minded and no obtuse to other's views. No more rice, all you're doing is saying "look person X says it works so it works." It doesn't work like that. Now, like Howard, I'm pragmatic usually, but at the same time, the engineer in me wants to know why exactly it works. But no one has answered my original question, does the factory OMP inject oil under no load decel? Don't ******* act like this doesn't matter. Arguing that point just shows how ******* obtuse you are the logic. Man up and say, if in fact the factory OMP doesn't shut down on throttle lift off and continues to inject oil, it's gotta be for good reason. (after all, should there EVER be a time while the engine's running things are constantly being lubricated?)

And on a last note, I know some people have posted they have converted the OMP to run from 2 stroke but no real write up or info on what/how they did it. I know the rotary aviation thing has been talked about but it seems it won't really work for the FD. Now, if we could get some system to run the OMP off straight 2 stroke, would ANYONE be opposed to that? I haven't read one thing in here that would put that solution in a negative light. Also, I don't think I've read on here where anyone's said said the OMP's APPLICATION of the fluid was not up to snuff, so it would seem that if we could get the OMP to pump better fluid, the debate would be over, no? After that it's just, should you premix to FURTHER lubricate your engine...if it doesn't all get burnt first.

Let's here so educated responses to all that.

no_more_rice

If someone in here can cite a peer reviewed source to back up the following statement (paraphrased):

I'm all ears.

from BITOG (not saying this is "peer reviewed", but reflects my understanding)

In order for a two cycle oil to lube it has to come out of suspension when it reaches the crank case. Its quite simple actually. The fuel enters the crank case in a liquid state (i.e. small droplets). The heat of the crank case at operating temps evaporates these droplets very rapidly causing the oil to drop out of suspension and coat all internal parts. This happens with oil oils, syn or otherwise. A example of this is not occuring is when the motor is first started. Since the crank case is not yet warm the fuel doesnt evaporate and the oil doesnt drop out of suspension. Instead sent directly to the combustion chamber where it partially burns. This unburnt oil is what causes smoke on startup. BTW There are many oils that use ester bases that are not di esters; polyol (redline) and carboxl (mx2t) are two of the most common.

Vierte

iTrader: (2)

I agree with your point of view, but not your method. Insults do not further your argument.



There are many things wrong with this statement. First, you fuel system is not "designed" to atomize fuel so that it wont touch anything before it is combusted. It is atomized to promote a more complete combustion process.

Look at the path that the intake air has to take. It is literally forced around a peanut by a triangle before it is ever combusted. So your saying that molecules of fuel and oil that are suspended in air, that are literally being forced by a rotor around a peritrochoid housing, don't come in contact with the housing walls?

As a Junior (I assume) mechanical engineering student, you should have a pretty good idea about the complex fluid mechanics that occur as the air is pumped around the combustion chamber. There are eddies, viscous effects will cause reversion, the air is pretty tortured through its path and drops fuel and oil on everything it touches...

If you were correct, and fuel stays in suspension so well, then how is it possible that we can flood our engines?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. And, fuel that touches something wont combust as well. Optimized combustion occurs with well dispersed, airborne, fuel droplets. It behooves the injectors to keep as much fuel off the walls as is possible.

Not as it would if 2-stroke were pumped directly onto it. I dont argue that this method works when the injectors are firing and the ratio is suitably oil rich.
My arguement is that it doesnt work in such low ratios, and it doesnt work with anything but a residual context when the throttle body is closed.

Good, so now we have a coating of premix when we're open throttle as a byproduct. What are the lubricative properties of our premix? What was the premix ratio?

Lack of combustion.

userjh5174

Mr. Coleman,

Can adding some 2 stroke oil ( while fueling tank) with the stock OMP be as beneficial , and would this foul the spark plugs?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

I think 1/2oz is too little under any circumstance, others disagree. You'll have to make your own call here.


The apex, corner, side seal would not be enough to lock up the engine if not lubricated properly. You would most likely see excessive housing and side-plate wear if they were under-lubricated, scoring and chrome flaking.

Gasoline.

Conditional to your statement, nothing...gasoline for what it's worth. But, The fuel mixture will not all be burnt away(though I contend almost all of it will). Some of it will make it to the friction surfaces. It's a matter of how much and it's lubricative capacity, IMHO.

Yes.

I know I wouldn't be. I'd suggest running both to some degree. It's that degree that I'm stuck on. The problem is that the vast majority of aftermarket ECU's dont alot for an OMP, as I understand it anyways.

I'm pretty sure that's been discussed as a solution in this thread somewhere earlier. Howard commented something to the effect that he wasn't opposed to it, just that he was opposed to injecting dirty 4-stroke oil.

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

Ok so the most glaring thing I see for NOT removing the OMP is the no load decel lubrication. If you're on the road course, it's pretty common to go into a corner sayin 2nd, at the top of the gear and let off to turn into a corner, and then get back on it after the corner. Now that time frame can be as much as a few seconds. Coming from the piston world, that's a huge amount of time to not be lubricating. And that scenario will happen over and over and over.

Based on all this info, it seems the best solution is the factory OMP running straight 2 stroke. Even though the ECU can't compensate for higher loads etc., it doesn't seem the engine can be properly lubricated by pre mix only regardless. Even if we're only talking about no load decel and not whether or not the pre mix mixture can make it's way onto the seals before being burnt which no one can say for certainty. Now, it would seem that running the OMP with straight 2 stroke and mixing in say 1/4 -1/2oz per gallon would be the best of both worlds. Not enough to have high rev issues and enough (according to Howard/others) to lubricate things. And you're still using the facotry OMP for direct location lubricating and if nothing else, no load decel lubrication.

I'm just now getting into the 13B but it seems ridiculous that no one has made a setup to run the OMP with straight 2 stroke.

no_more_rice

When the guy you're arguing with understands essentially nothing about two stroke lubrication, then says *I'm* way off base and starts in with the insults, it's a little over the top. "Barban" is akin to the conspiracy theory crowd associated with 9/11: he claims two stroke oil at lesser ratios magically disappears and fails to lubricate anything. It's pure insanity. How can you reason with someone like that?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Does this make you the pot or the kettle? I'm tired of the negativity. I'm sorry I insulted you. I dont care how it started, but I'm over it.

That said, I disagree with you. I don't think the 2-stroke disappears. I think little of it reaches the friction surface. With little fuel-mix on the friction surface, I think it's ability to lubricate is imperative. I don't think a 256:1 ratio is sufficiently oil-rich to effectively lubricate the seals given the small amount of fuel-mix that makes it there.

I think the fact that there will only be residual lubrication in the case of throttle closed decel makes the lubricative properties of the fuel that actually makes it to a friction surface even more important in a premix only situation.

I'm not throwing curveballs here. This is all well within reason and logic.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Pertaining to current topic at hand..

This is what Dr. Iannetti wrote me..

Again another question you need to figure out is what is the maximum load you are running and what amount of pre-mix are you running? Just 1/2 oz or 1oz per gallon might not fit your criteria when you don't know for sure what its needed... Also, how about different types of seals?? Ceramic vs. Mazda OEM.. or other apex seals... Who knows.. Bottom line, not enough study to say pre-mix alone will make your engine last longer than with OMP.

And finally, this is what Dr. Iannetti wrote me at the end.. Again, I'm sharing this so you guys can get an idea from top rotary guy in the world.