Zero R

iTrader: (1)

There was a car (purplish FD) back in 01 at the fast fours and rotary jamboree in Aus that had almost exactly that. It ran to a sandwich plate at the filter pedestal. At the time I couldn't find the owner to talk to him about it. I got the idea of what he was doing I just couldn't figure why not just block it off and run premix. Never gave it much thought after that. Looking back now I should've made the thing.

Banzai is right the worst engines we've ever opened are the ones that are babied, and it is almost always either a female or older person. I've seen absolutely beautiful 20k mile cars with failed engines just caked with carbon inside. Of the renesis engines we've done the race engines in the diasio's are clean as can be when opened the RX8 motors are far worse. We always tell the RX8 owners you need to get on it every once in awhile.

~S~

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

this is what i do, no need to get fancy and dump the oil into the filler neck.

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

would you get a limp mode code once the motor died?

dagoof

This might be a little off topic, but while we are talking about adding stuff to the gas tank.....

What about Heet or injector cleaner.

I was about to add a bottle of heet to the tank yesterday and I noticed that it said "not for 2 cycle engines" so I didn't do it.

Thoughts?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

"What about Heet or injector cleaner."

Since my car doesn't hit the streets much if ever during the winter, I typically run a bottle of injector cleaner with the first tank of gas in the spring.

t2terror

iTrader: (2)

Also would running a 3mm motor on strictly 2 cycle mix in a FD be fine?

He's On Toroids

iTrader: (2)

I use BG 44k for injectors, I believe most others do too.

I dont think Heet will be a problem but they have a version that is advertised as good for 2 cycle engines too (28202 as opposed to 28201 IIRC).

What's the difference between the two? Search ...like you should have in the first place.

[/off topic]

just startn

iTrader: (33)

Can Someone touch base on this subject a little bit more? It would seem on decelaration there would be zero full getting injected=zero oil. i understand its only for a split second but still............

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"would running a 3mm motor on strictly 2 cycle mix in a FD be fine?"

the motor i ran for four years on no EOP and 1/2 oz of premix (1 oz dyno/track) was a 3mm motor. the apex seals were as new at the end of 4 years usage.

"It would seem on decelaration there would be zero full getting injected=zero oil. "

there is also zero oil from an EOP should it be on the engine. there is little need for additional lube on decel.

howard

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

no fuel and no combustion to wipe away the lubrication as quickly, it's not as big of a problem as some make it sound.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I also tell any rotary guys that they need to get on their car and not drive like a grandma's (no offense to grand mothers).

Well, this is the reason, why I say its hard to compare just premix vs. OMP engines... especially howard's race engine vs. auto engine of unknown driving habits.

I think some of you think too much about little stuff.. I used to be worse at this but as I'm getting older, I realized, it doesn't really matter much unless you are a racer who worries about saving few seconds. But in this case, its about reliability and longevity of the engine.. which there is no clear data...

Only thing I could think of is if you drive like an old grandmother, pre-mix ONLY might help you.. but that's maybe And if you drive like a man who just stole a car and running from cops, then pre-mix will not help you as much as an old 80+ year old woman who lives in FL and going 10 miles an hour under the speed limit with her FD.

no_more_rice

Silencing the skeptics/critics, one by one.

What you have to remember with synthetic two stroke oil (pre-mix) is that the objective is supplemental lubrication. The rotary is not a two stroke. It does not rely solely on pre-mix to lubricate all engine internals. Modern synthetic two stroke oils can be mixed at much leaner ratios and still lubricate well. Amsoil reports several cases of owners running 100:1 with small two stroke engines for many years and the internals look excellent on tear down (Interceptor or Dominator). 128:1 supplemental pre-mix to lubricate small seals in an engine that already has a full wet sump four cycle lubrication system is insane (for the street at least).

He's On Toroids

iTrader: (2)

After going through this whole post I wanted to consolidate some of the information thus far. I just want to make it easier to get these things straight in my head and want the expert's opinions if the following is indeed the right direction. A warning: if you don't like to see information repeated or are just looking to flame stop reading here.

First off, this topic is rife with conjecture. There is a wealth of experience to be considered but the truth is that no one has actually sat down and individually tested these systems for oiling the engine (I am talking Scientific Method here). Therefore any conclusive solution statements should not be made. Therefore it is the Opinion of the contributing experts that this is the proper course of action for increasing the longevity of the FD Engine.

First hard facts:
Fact 1.1: Crankcase oil includes carbon
Fact 1.2: 2 Stroke oil is Ash-less and designed to be burnt during combustion
Fact 1.3: Tricking the ECU into believing a EOP/OMP is in the car (when it is not) is a prohibitively expensive/complicated endeavor
Fact 1.4: EOP/OMP is only active during higher RPM
Fact 1.5: EOP/OMP only injects oil directly onto apex seal
Fact 1.6: 2 Stroke oil is present throughout the whole combustion area (will come into contact with all seals)

Assumption: there is minimal affect of 2 stroke oil's effect on fuel injector/filter/pump life .(-HC: after 10 years he hasn't had a problem, -DaveW says its good for them)


Situation 1: Stock ECU/mildly modded FD
From these facts, the opinion is that the best option for the Stock ECU is to retain the EOP/OMP and modify it to inject 2 stroke oil.(Possibly using KKMpunkrock2011's suggestion)

Reason 1.1: It is beneficial to having additional oil directly on Apex seals during higher RPM (it also finds its way to your other seals too)
Reason 1.2: If you need to pass emissions you still have the option of running a tank w/out premix for your test
Reason 1.3: I do not know this (please chime in) but it is understandable that the EOP/OMP uses the oil it pumps as an internal lubricant and could seize or burn out the motor (due to increased friction) and you would be left with replacing a pump you don't even use.
Reason 1.4: You can now run Synthetic (-HC: unproven but likely)

Additionally, include minimal premix (.5 oz or less per gallon of gas)

Reason 1.5: So all seals and surfaces can benefit from it's lubrication
Reason 1.6: It may inhibit carbon build up by lubricating surfaces (-Karack)

(Scrub may have something in the works that will help us improve this situation. Stay tuned for more info)


Situation 2: Non-stock ECU/ modded FD

Eliminate EOP/OMP
Reason 2.1: Just another thing to go wrong and get in the way.
Reason 2.2: EOP/OMP may not be able to keep up with demands of engine with over-sized injectors(-Banzai: I do not know how fuel injectors affect how much oil the seals need. I understand the ratio of oil to gas would be off, but would not the same total oil be lubricating the seals?)
Reason 2.3: Larger Apex seals (3mm) need more lube (-Banzai: I agree. It's not a direct ratio of increase in size to oil, but that's just getting nit picky EOP won't keep up if you cant control it with ECU)
Reason 2.4: The PFC(or other computer) won't be able to tell if pump fails (-Banzai: I think we all agree that in this case no limp mode = Boom)
Reason 2.5: RA adapters used to keep EOP/OMP may interfere with your turbo setup(-Grimple1)


Add premix: Amount depends on your setup. 0.5 oz/gal min on street/mild cars. Increase to 1 oz/gal for track/dyno or higher HP. In the end everyone has an opinion. It is your decision, increase more if you like and tell us what happens to your car(preferably start a different thread). If you have an actual 'Case Study' post it so people can read the testing conditions of said study, otherwise we must assume you are posturing.




It has been mentioned by others that the two rotors in HC's original post cannot be compared. I agree, there are too many variables at work here:

One included AI one did not
Different driving situations (one of you revs their engine almost exclusively)
One with premix one without
One is constantly maintained the other was obviously neglected (must have been because otherwise all of our motors would be blowing at 22k)


Anyone with additional information is free to add, but these conditions are on the "do not do" list if you want to avoid carbon build-up:
Overly rich conditions
Taxing the motor before it is at temperature
Driving exclusively in low RPM (grandma)

The longevity of these engines is very conditional and varies as much as our setups and driving styles. I think we can all agree that there are three main reasons for the death of a rotary: Carbon Buildup, Detonation and Overheating (correct me if I missed one). I personally have never heard of an engine dying due to wear (I would be interested if one of the builders could comment on average how much seal is left on one of the higher mileage engines they strip, would be neat to estimate the theoretical mileage an FD could go if nothing happened to it along the way)


So... long story short:
Premix (Carbon): regardless of application it can only help
AI (Detonation, Carbon too possibly): small mod, big impact in engine health
Reliability mods(Cooling, engine/turbo monitoring): fixes the shortcomings of the cooling system and allows you to monitor the car(temp/psi)


Sorry, it was so long winded. I'm an engineer and hate good information to be lost to internet squabbles.

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

but will having your grandma in the car while running from the cops help? lol

I gave my OMP the middle finger and blocked it off. Im going to forget to premix. i wonder how long the car will go without the seals being oiled... NOT going to try it, just pondering.

I tried to take some engine pics before i put the manifold on, but the lighting only got the ports. that was 30k miles without WI and with OMP. Ill go find the pic...

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! If your grandma is the one driving and running from the cops.... I want to see videos

What I would like to see is, if just running without either (OMP or Pre-Mix) will have carb buildup after 20K miles And also see if E10, E85, Straight Gas, Race gas (leaded) will make any difference... I hate to say this but if I ran E85 on track only car without OMP/PRE-Mix and broke down my engine at 20K miles and saw that its spotless and seals are in spec, would all of you jump the wagon?

no_more_rice

No, because it's well documented that some degree of supplemental lubrication is required. Four stroke oil (which ends up in the combustion chamber and cakes everything with burnt dino residue) is clearly the wrong tool for the job. So, the question becomes how much two cycle oil or similar derivative is enough? The guys at Idemitsu told me they know of racers running two stroke pre-mix at 400:1. Most seem to prefer 256:1. Howard posted proof that 256:1 works very well, even at high hp. I've been running that ratio for five years and my compression is rock solid. Draw your own conclusions.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

There seems to be a lot of good information in this thread. However, I'm not sure how truly useful any of it is.

Almost all of our engines fail due to blown coolant seals, or broken apex seals from detonation. While premixing should keep the engine components in better condition, for most of us, it isn't going to make our engines last any longer.

no_more_rice

I suppose my response to that would be that the rotary community is still learning, and there is still much ignorance and neglect which leads to engine failures. The detonation and coolant seal issues can be overcome, brothers.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on....I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead"

Amen.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

That would be nice and convenient, wouldn't it ?

No code. Only thing you'll notice is your vacuum/compression getting worse with time and boost/revs.

I replaced my OMP with a low mileage unit on my recent build. I personally prefer OMP+supplemental premix.

rdamn, you may want to look into taking fish oil pills (omega 3 fatty acids, DHA and EPA). It will increase recall and memory, and may help give your engine a fighting chance

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! You say its well documented but your form of documentation is not par with what I considered well documented. Again, the point I'm making is that there are too many external variable to conclude only pre-mix is going to increase longevity of these engines.

If you still don't quite understand my point, let me be bit clearer.

Say if most of the rotary engines (say 50% or more that are out there) are blowing up because of excessive carbon build up and needs a rebuild before 40K miles. And say pre-mix only engines have shown that there is no engines that failed less than 60K miles and most are lasting 100K plus miles. Then I could see pre-mix is doing something...

OR

Someone has gotten several identical engines (say 20 engines), 10 ran with just OMP and other 10 ran with OMP at exact same condition for say extended period of time and internal was spec'd for wear and build up. If from that experiment shows that engine with pre-mix only will likely to last longer, than I might believe it.

But at this point, any thing else, I couldn't call it well documented... as if you look at number of engines blown, cause of the failure, number of engines that have 60+K miles on OMP, etc etc.. I could guess that Pre-mix doesn't make much difference in longevity because say it builds up less carbon.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I would like to add one more thing..

Regarding topic of what something could do for something reminds me of people used to sell magnets for its healing power. I think about 10-15 years ago, people are spending money to buy these magnets because its going to get rid of pain and heal your illness. There were 0 scientific proof and magnet or not, it probably didn't make any difference in your health.. maybe mental ease?? But not enough good scientific experiments to show anything solid... Just few MDs, salesman, and people who says they gain something from it..

No offense to Howard, as he has ton of experience and I know he knows more than most of us on here. I also listen to some stuff Howard mentions and I agree with him most of the time. Regarding running just Pre-mix, I just need bit more documentation for me to believe... Also at this point, I don't care much about longevity as I have back up engines at home

He's On Toroids

iTrader: (2)

I remember reading this, thought it might be useful:

"The rotary's reliability under the severest conditions was well proven in Mazda's competition activities in the late 80's and early 90's, including an outright win in the Le Mans 24-hour race for sports racing cars in 1991. A road car is subjected to a different kind of stress, said a Mazda designer responsible for the engine's innards, especially when the 13B-REW's output is increased to 209 kW (280 bhp). Possible problem areas are higher combustion temperature and pressure. The former could be dealt with by the cooling system's heat dissipating capacity. The later was thought to exert extraordinary pressure on the engine's gas sealing.

Apex seal lubrication has become a critical issue. In a race engine, oil supply to the rotor housing by means of injection was precisely monitored and controlled, whereas in the production unit, a larger amount is supplied, just to be on the safe side. Some of the lubricant is fed into the trochoid chamber through a metering nozzle. The previous nozzle's oil passage was 2.0 mm (0.08 in.) in diameter. Negative pressure created in the rotor chamber would cause all the oil within the nozzle to be sucked out. When the engine accelerated rapidly, oil supply could not keep up with the speed. To prevent oil starvation, the previous system supplied a larger amount of oil to be on the safe side. In the new metering nozzle, the passage diameter has been reduced to 0.08 mm (0.003 in.), halving its volume of 0.0005 L (0.03 cu. in.). A new rubber seal is also inserted to fill a gap within the nozzle body where oil used to be sidetracked. Now, there is still some oil left within the nozzle after each suction, so that the lubrication system responds to the apex seal's requirement."

Excerpt from SAE article By Jack Yamaguchui,


This article is talking of course about when the engine was upgraded to 280 BHP for 99. To me, it does not sound like the OMP is a precise design. More one of those "overbuild it because it's cheaper that way and still works" designs that plague the FD caused by Mazda trying to keep it under a budget. The way the article reads is as if anyone is doing any power mods at all could easily be outpacing the OMP and causing ineffective flow due to CCP. Would Premix not be a more efficient method to accurately disperse oil within the motor?


Although, I wonder how hard it would be to set up one of the 'precise' injector systems they had for the race cars.

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

Whether it be in carbon build up, reliability, or methodology, it seems that the only thing we all agree on is that crank oil injection via the OMP system is lacking.

That being said, there are 4 options:
1. Leave OMP, no Premix (I think this is probably the worst option)
2. Leave OMP, run .5oz premix (Did this for 1 1/2 years w/ no problems - no excessive smoke)
3. Adapt OMP, run clean 2-stroke oil via the OMP system from other reservoir (currently this is a work in progress for the FD community)
4. Remove OMP, run .5oz - 1.5oz of premix. (I've done this for 1 year w/ no problems with engine)

no_more_rice

Just to be sure we're on the same page: the issue I was referring to that is "well documented" is that some form of supplemental lubrication of the seals is needed, not that pre-mixing two stroke will make your motor last x miles. I think you mis-read my post and/or jumped to conclusions.

no_more_rice

When I did this, I got plug fouling almost immediately (Amsoil Interceptor)