grimple1

iTrader: (1)

it was my daily driver then. single turbo t4 ebay garbage, PFC, 550/1300, stock heat range plugs.

it was probably a 1.5-2hr commute 4 days a week (40 miles round trip). LOT of standing in traffic. I ran a 1/4 quart bottle of mobile 1 2-stroke w/ each refill (OMP was installed). So technically it was 8oz per 15 ish gallons. I never had any problems with the plugs fouling or smoke.

i probably put ... hm.... 6k?? miles on it during that year.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Take Flame War 2010 to PM's guys. Thanks

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

lol rdamn. subliminal messaging. ;-)

I stared at your message trying to remember what i wrote that would cause to you talk about fish oil pills. wow im scatter brained.

That said, here are pics of a 25-30k miles exhaust ports. remember how i had that thread about tearing it down for analysis? no? neither do i lol.

I understand that an exhaust housing != inside the engine, but my camera doesnt.

*Edit, wow the thumbnails are almost more useful. sorry bout the gigantor pics

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

rdahm, would it be possible to get a small LED book light in there to further illuminate the internals? Just a thought as that could give us a little more info.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

You guys are acting like the city of Atlantis is in there

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Question for those of your running Pre-Mix only, how often do you guys change out your plugs? And is your plugs clean as the rotors??

Howard, the rotor pictures you've posted earlier, I'm assuming that's with water injection? If so, how much of the carbless look is attribute from water injection vs. running the pre-mix only. I ask this as because I was a former 8 owner and they suggest using water to clean out the carbon in the engine when necessary. I never had to do it as I never experienced any issues as I drove that car hard every day.

I also wonder about the compared auto engine. I wonder if the owner ever changed plugged during 20+K miles that was put on.

Again, I ask all this because I feel that its similar to those people who get their colon washed out. Sure maybe having your colon clean might be good or make you feel better, but **** will flow right through again. If your **** was packed and need cleaning, I say go clean it out, but if you eat right and nothings wrong with it, why worry about it and flush it? Personally, I kind of feel that way about pre-mix only. Why go through blocking off OMP, worried about ECU code, etc.. when regular oil change and spark plug change might be enough to have healthy engine.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"plugs clean as the rotors??" yes.

"how much of the carbless look is attribute from water injection vs. running the pre-mix only."

good question and i don't have an answer. i consider both AI and Premix essential and have never run just AI. but that's just me, i just can't bring myself to pump all that carbon and non 2 cycle oil into my motor. BTW, i run 1400 CC/Min of 100% methanol as AI injectant.

i do agree w many comments relating to the idea that how the FD was driven plays a significant role as to how bad the motor carbons. i think it is important that the rotary remains pristine inside due to the many close clearanced items that are crucial for proper performance.

further, as i have previously mentioned, carbon is the culprit for probably a third of the engine failures i see and there is too much carbon, sticking side seals etc, in half of the motors i disassemble.

hc

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Howard, I'm in agreement with you regarding carbon.. but carbon build of up of excessive amount. I don't think some carbon will be an issue at all as thousands of engines in US probably are running with some carbon build up without an ill effect.

As my analogy of colon washing, most people will think **** is bad and some think they need to wash out their colon to get rid of it and start over. Or they think its going to help them NOT get colon cancer if their colon is clean. But most likely statistic will show it doesn't matter if you clean it regularly or not. And **** will go through it no matter what.. More important would be to eat balanced meal and check by your doctor at recommended age.. I think same principle could be applied to our cars but I'm sure some will disagree.

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

I'm going to give you crap when I meet you IRL at deals :-P haha. I'm like a little kid trying to be scientific like the big boys.

You can't take away my dreams, because I'm sleeping when I have them. - night at the Roxbury

Phil. I totally understand your analogy. Same thing applies in so many avenues of computer technology. At a certain threshold it's becomes a situation of diminishing returns. I think it's a valid talking point.

no_more_rice

I'm running Denso Iridiums and they looked great after 10k miles....no carbon and very little electrode wear.

no_more_rice

Not to derail this thread but the issue here is to keep your diet high in fiber (esp greens) and low in saturated fats, high yeast, and empty calories. Colon cancer is common in America because most people eat fatty, low fiber foods and don't get enought fruit and veges. Like all nutrition related issues, it's all about long term prevention, it's never a quick fix, and demands discipline. Like carbon in your engine, it can take a long time for **** food to cause a serious problem, but "disease begins in the colon". It's also why probiotics are very important imo.

Back on topic: four cycle oils are not designed to burn in the combustion chamber of any engine and WILL leave depostis. Irrefutable as 1+1=2, so why would anyone do it? Laziness?

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

By your statement should we all become macrobiotic/ vegans to avoid colon cancer?


Or it could be genetics and you can't avoid it.. just as badly assembled engine or poorly spec'd engine built by un-experienced builder. It wouldn't matter if it was taken care of or not


You say that but over 30 years, Mazda rotaries have been burning 4cycle oil into its combustion chambers. And many earlier rotaries have past 100K miles and some over 200K.

Exactly, I'm not sure why you are pushing just running pre-mix with just your experience with limited miles. If you were at 150K plus miles with just running pre-mix, I would say there some benefit. I recently called an experienced engine builder about this and he also think running pre-mix only might not do much on reliability. He said he had a person just running gas without OMP for a year putting over 20K miles without any ill affect and later hook the OMP back on and drove well over 100K miles (1st gen).


Partly laziness?? or maybe some are thinking like me and saying, why?? There are far more engines out there running current set up without an issue, why change when there is no hard evidence? Or why should I, maybe I'll just hook up a water bottle to the intake and clean out some carbon.. it only takes few minutes once a year and I don't have to worry about pre-mixing every time I fill up.. Who knows..

Again, I would pre-mix with OMP on the track but not sure I would go out of my way to change things up just to run pre-mix only thinking I'm doing something good for the engine.. Also, I'm getting on this thread, not to push my idea but those of you to think on your own to make your decision. If you still think pre-mix only makes sense to you, then you should run it... If you don't, don't do it.

no_more_rice

It's interesting how FB and FC motors are always caked with carbon on tear down, too.

The hard evidence is that four cycle oils leave deposits, so using it is dumb. I really could care less what Mazduh says.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

and how they last 100+K miles or more with that kind of deposit

I think its kind of dumb not to listen to people who made the engine what it is today. In someways bit arrogant.

jonofd3

Howard...
Is there anyway to get the OMP to get 2 stroke from a seperate tank instead of from the sump? or does it collect oil from the side of the engine block instead and not the sump?

Just a thought as I would rather put a small oil tank in the engine bay & draw from that using the original OMP rather than pooring it in with the fuel at a petrol station???

Cheers
Jono

no_more_rice

The right question isn't how long can your engine last caked up with carbon, the right question is how much longer could have lasted without it? 100k really isn't all that much to boast about. You keep harping on this, but the pictures Howard posted, combined with the many FB and FC engines I've seen torn down at RX-7 World provide extremely compelling evidence that four stroke oils are all wrong for this application. Then again, you seem to commited to Mazda's "wisdom" in using an OMP that meters four stroke oil into the combustion chamber.

Put yourself in Mazda's shoes at the introduction to any of the RX series cars. The press brochure reveals that maintenance is really no different from other cars except for this little tidbit: you have to add two stroke oil to this little reservoir here every couple of fill-ups. How do you think that would fly? Think EPA would buy that one? Think the average lazy, non enthusiast would go for that? Think women would want to add two stroke oil? They might get some on their dress, heaven forbid! You just alienated a whole group of potential buyers.

But, regardless, two stroke oil is what the engine needs for seal lubrication. It's the right tool for the job, period. Using four stroke oil for thss application is a really bad compromise, and no doubt Mazda knew it, they just didn't like the alternative.

no_more_rice

This topic has been discussed for at least 10 years now. I believe Rotary Aviation used to sell a remote tank

farberio

iTrader: (7)

The inevitable Marketing vs Engineering war. In this case I am willing to bet Marketing won, and probably for a very good reason.

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

the accountants win every time.

He's On Toroids

iTrader: (2)

Just to prove that the guys around here aren't the only ones who advocate Premix, here is another group that has done their own testing and development. They agree it is the way to go.


"The subscribers of the Aircraft Rotary Engine News Letter and others have actually improved the durability on what Mazda accomplished by choosing more recent, somewhat more costly, high tech material for certain parts. A silicon carbide ceramic apex seal has been developed by Dr. Francisco Inanette that is so hard and smooth it has no noticeable wear rate. Nobody has worn one out yet. Projected engine life in gen set applications predict a TBO of 20,000 hours. If true no turbine can approach this life expectancy.

High temperature, 500 degree Fahrenheit, teflon encapsulated silicon water jacket seals and oil scraper O-rings have been developed. These increase the ability of the engine to withstand inadvertent overheating. A common occurrence as many home builders are relearning lessons learned back in WW II or before about liquid cooled aircraft engines. These costly materials are not required as the projected TBO of a stock Mazda two rotor engine in aircraft use is about 3000 hours based on the wear rate of the stock apex seals and cruising at about 150 HP and 4500 RPM.

It has been found that simply mixing two cycle oil with the fuel reduces the apex seal wear and the carbon deposits inside the engine. The ratio used is about one ounce of two cycle oil to one gallon of gas. The stock engine injects oil from the crankcase into the combustion chamber. This crankcase oil, due to certain wear additives, is really unsuited to the task of lubing the apex seals. It leaves's undesirable deposits on the rotor and rotor apex seal slots that sometimes cause the apex seals to stick. The stock oil injector pump is disabled when the engine is raced or used as an aircraft engine and two cycle oil is mixed with the fuel. Another reason for doing this is Mazda used cheap nylon, five cent tubes to feed oil to the apex lube injectors."

- excerpt from "Incredible Mazda wankel rotary aircraft engine" Revised
Copyright 1988-2009 By Paul Lamar

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Well, I'm suppose to meet up with Dr. Iannetti for lunch or dinner sometime in April. Let me ask him. If he suggest that pre-mix only is the way, well, I guess I'm convinced. I'll also ask him what the reasons are... But I'm pretty sure he will give me similar answer as when i asked him about his seals on street driven car... which is, he said, mazda spent extensive research to develop their apex seal and that he does not recommend his seals on street driven car. But I guess we'll see what he says in april.

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

I'll say it again for the newb. Rotary Aviation adapters will have clearance issues w/ stock twins and many single turbo kits.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Really? 100K isn't much? Most FD owners I know including Howard does not drive our FD as daily. I'm guessing maybe 5K miles a year.. 100K at that rate will take 20 years.

I don't think you still understand the point I been trying to make. The point is, how you and Howard might drive the car might be different from how others drive their car. I think most have been told that driving rotary hard will reduce carbon build up. So, why not suggest high RPM every so often vs. more drastic elimination of OMP and pushing Pre-mix? Second, as I stated to you before, its also all about the build. IF, premixing will increase longevity of the engine, it can't save engines that's poorly build. In that case, engine will not last 100K either pre-mix or not.
Third, Again comparing Howard build engine to mazda build engine that's 15+ years old is not a good comparison. What if oil control ring seals were bad and oil is being burn? What if that caused more carbon build up?? Can you really compare the two??

Again, my point is, I don't see hard data showing me it makes huge difference. You seem to talk in such way it is, but when there are many engines lasting 15+ years with 100+K miles daily driven, I say not enough data to show pre-mix only is better. Also, you really haven't mention what level of carbon buildup is bad. Just kept pointing all engine you broke down has carbon build up... But how many of those were good running engines and how many were bad??

Personally, if Mazda were able to sell unique engine such as rotary to general population, I think they could market it in such way to resolve this issue IF pre-mix is the way.

Let's look at it this way, You and other that are for Pre-mix say it burn clean and hence no carbon build up. So, I'm also assuming no ill affect on cats? I also don't see much of a difference between people filling up any other fluid on the car. If pre-mix only is in fact a way, to make engines last 2x longer and more reliable with Mazda offering even longer engine warrantee, Im sure they will figure out a way to have a gallon reserve tank for pre-mix, set up a way to inject either via metering pump or into the fuel tank. And if they think this is the way, I think they could train the sales staff to inform the buyer, set up included maintenance service up to certain miles (like most high end luxury cars) and let the dealer refill the pre-mix. If Pre-mix only will give 2x more life (which no one has proven yet) I'm sure they will see the advantage and adapt to it.

Phew, again with this claim without facts to back up. Its like me saying, "My GOD is so much better than yours". Again, please understand what I'm asking.... I'm asking for more data. At this point, there isn't one and its one speculation vs. another about longevity of the engine based on how clean the engine is. What I'm saying is I don't think it makes much different.. Here is one thing would make me believe it more.. Someone who pre-mix only, drive like a grandmother who barely gets on the engine, never past 3.5K RPM, and puts 100K miles. If that engine is torn down and looks like the pictures Howard posted and specs are all within norm to put the engine back together and go another 100K, Im sold!! I'll convert every rotary car I own and run pre-mix only. Until then, I don't really see the point as many engines already gets up to 100+K already without this set up.

no_more_rice

*Sigh* Simple logic is wasted on some people. This is an endless hamster wheel.

The logic (as well as the facts) is simple: four cycle oils leave deposits, two cycle oils do not (at least quilality synthetic two cycle oils...and there is abundant evidence to prove that point on countless forums). Two cycle oils are designed to burn in the combustion chamber, four cycle oils are not. Lubrication of the seals requires either direct injection or pre-mix, as in a two cycle engine, with exposure to the combustion chamber and burn-off. One is the right tool for the job, one isn't. 1+1=2. You lose this argument all day long.

Sure, and that argument is wasted on many people as well, because they are blinded by a preconceived ideology. I could argue all day long that Israel in 2010 and the history of the scripture, which pre-dates any current relevant religion, provides compelling evidence that the Bible, and the God of the Bible, are true, but not with someone with many years of false ideology engrained into their thinking. Talking to such people is like planting seeds on pavement. Same here, you are convinced that the engineers at Mazda cannot be wrong, that the OMP is a robust engineering solution to the seal lubrication issue, and any downsides are minor. However, the fact is Mazda had other considerations when building a street car, espeically when emissions are concerned, that rule out direct injection or pre-mix of two stroke oil. Without knowing all the facts, and having a poor understanding of the merits of two stroke oils, you're stuck in your little ideology.

Engine longevity is a long term benefit and tangential to this argument, so you can drop that and fast. There is no proof there either way. The argument here is which is the better oil for the intended purpose. You lose that one all day long.