ryan1

iTrader: (5)

You don't think the weight of the oil has anything to do with it's ability to protect or perform differently?
I only mix heavy oil, because I have warped 2 sets of seals with less oil. A little less oil is way cheaper then replacing seals.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Anyone who knows who rice is should realize that logic and science carry no weight in his "logic."

Chuck Norris FB

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

OK?? LMAO!! Me and others stated this and why the initial two comparison of Howard's motor and Auto motor isn't comparable? I mean, isn't what I been saying all along that there aren't enough data to show pre-mix alone at 1/2 oz per gallon contribute to longevity of the motor? Aren't you the one stating We need more science here, and less random speculation but aren't you now speculating more than anything??

Again, So what would you say to Howard's initial post? Would you now say comparing stock ECU ran vs. Howard's tuned car can't be compared?

Wait a minute... So, you also agree that there is a liability issue at hand but you are saying they told you to use it without OMP?? I highly doubt they even told you.. It kind of boils down to your words which at this point, I'm reluctant to believe. Before you keep insisting Pre-mix only and stating behave of Idemitsu, I suggest you get your contact to write you a letter stating they told you so.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

So, why wasn't what I posted about Idemitsu's patent not taken seriously??

Do you know what they were looking for when Idemitsu used 1:20 ratio during their patent testing?

Here:



Now read what 6 places on the piston Idemitsu was looking at...

For those of you not sure about some of the piston parts are



And yes, its not a diagram of 2 stroke piston but it shares similarities in those parts... If you still don't quite get the similarities they were looking for of 2 cycle and rotary, I don't know what to tell you.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

There literature states it reduces deposits.



This is completely irrational. If they recommend 1/2 oz with the OMP as supplemental lubrication for "additional protection", it make absolutely no sense that the same 1/2 oz would be cover the lubrication requirement without the pump. This implies that the OMP is not supplying any lubrication, which we know to be false.

It is much more realistic if the recommendation were 1/2 oz with the OMP, 1oz without the OMP or something along those lines.

We have all been told by Mazda that a stock rotary can use upwards of 1qt of oil per 1000 miles of driving.

Barry Bordes

Notice the carbon build up on the premix rotors compared to the non-premix. Neither using AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by just startn

54k just tore it down, car was 100% stock. just a little bit of carbon not really much. wipes right off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing

Tangent? I think not.
Same amount of Carbon build up as higher mileage, less modified engines with the OMP intact. As you can see the carbon build up is far beyond the level of being able to "just wipe off" and reuse.

One observation about premix might be that it coats things that don’t require lubrication.

Everything from the injector diffuser, the port tunnels, the sides of the rotor, and face of the rotor.

What’s left is deposited on the parts we want lubricated like the housing surface and the side plate surfaces.


The OMP on the other hand deposits it’s oil at the point of the most critical need. At the apex seal itself.

More correctly it deposits it at the center of the apex seal’s trace on the housing.

The spot where it will have to cross the two hot and protruding spark plug openings and the exhaust port.

Barry.

RX7.Pilot

iTrader: (8)

Alot of interesting reading here and data to go with it. Im a new rotary fan but learning as much as I can and hungry for more. I wanted to share what Dave at Redline Oil told me about what there racing users do and use. He mentions 100:1 is what most of them run and that's with the OMP. I don't know if they modify the OMP for racing or not either or if you can? For the street though he did say 150:1 is ample he said almost sound like it was a bit over kill but not harmful. He recommended the race two stroke oil which you can read about here. This is what most are running on the track.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=19&pcid=16

The great thing about Redline Oil is that its base stock is a Class V ester base which as a lubricant is the highest rating you can get. On my 2 stroke watercraft engines when I opened one up it looked very clean where before when I was using a petroleum based Yamalube that was not the case. The positive effects would most likely be the same with the 4 stroke oil being injected. The oil naturally leaves little or no deposits which I would imagine should help in our engines over time.

This place below sells the 16oz size for a good price. That would be perfect per a tank full. It would get you very near 150:1 without having to use a funnel every time and a ratio rite. I believe Mazdas engineers had it right with the direct oil injection timed for the apex seals. A pre mix oil would be a great supplemental benefit without doubt. Keep in mind also Idemitsu's two stroke oil is a synthetic blend as well.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...Red_Line_Other

wolf_9782

i been doing what howard has been, 1/2 oz per on street, 1oz per on the dyno. no issues so far and ill be running methanol injection hopefully by the end of this week.

Force13B

iTrader: (19)

Wow i've been mixing a lot move then 1/2 oz per gallon for premix. I was told by a few people to use 4oz per 5gallons. I did a bunch of searching on here but most people that premixed still had there omp installed and were premixing as well for precautionary measures.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

In all fairness, I have to say that the S4 TII rotor pictured is not the norm. If I were shown that rotor I would say it had far less mileage on the engine then stated. Not saying just startn is incorrect, just that I would rate that rotors cleanliness as exceptional for the mileage. Typically there is far more carbon build up and oil on the sides of the rotors as there are oil injectors mounted in the LIM, feeding oil into the intake air stream.

We have hundreds of picures of rotors as they come out of engines. We photo document every engine teardown and rebuild for every customer.

60K TII rotor with stock mechanical OMP intact

Barry Bordes

Banzai,

Have you erer checked all of the other seal tips for cracks with a 10X magnifier or microscope?

Bary

just startn

iTrader: (33)

Banzi---The rotors do really have 54k on them. I know the orignal owner and everything about the car. I used to drive the car a little bit last year. When i drove it i beat the **** out of it, i mean rev limeter every minute **** like that. when i pulled the rear iron off i almost **** myself when it was that clean i couldnt believe what i was seeing.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Just startn- I believe you, as I said that rotor is exceptionally clean for the mileage and not what we normally see.

Barry- We don't typically spend a lot of time inspecting the components that are not going to be used in the rebuild. We never reuse apex seals, the old ones are given back to the customer.

coneklr

iTrader: (2)

Is premix bad for cats?

Se7enFD3S

do you premix every single time you fill up with gas or is it a once a month type of thing?
if you premix 2 stroke at 1/2 oz per gal and an FD tank is around 14 gal then lets say you put in 7 oz of 2 stroke per refill everytime?

just startn

iTrader: (33)

EVERY TIME YOU FILL UP. So your theory is correct

RX7.Pilot

iTrader: (8)

Hello again everyone. I was also thinking about other factors that may contribute to the carbon in some engines. Besides cold climate usage, the fuel you use has an important roll in carbon build up. Here is some information about gas and what top tier gas stations maybe in your area. Take a look.

Why top tier gas,

http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html

Deposit Control,

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Retailers of top tier gas (Hopefully you have one of these near you),

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Howard I think your rotors are exceptionally clean because of the AI. I think you are 100% on with your premix statements, however, I think just showing random pics of X-engine's rotors with so many miles is a bit pointless without knowing fuel type, port type, and A/f's. Just running premix and no OMP will certainly have different results than running the OMP or even OMP+premix. Same would be said though for running a car with 93 oct stock ports versus 100 oct street port, or 100 oct large street port. I'd even argue that back pressure in the manifold plays a good part in it. Your car had lower than normal exhaust manifold back pressure especially when compared to stock cars, or even cars running poor flowing cast type manifolds.
Keep in mind I agree with you on the premix versus crankcase oil thing though, no doubt it is the better way to go.


~S~

no_more_rice

A good synthetic pre-mix such as Amsoil Interceptor is designed to burn cleanly in the combustion chanmber and contains detergent additives to mitigate carbon deposits.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ait.aspx

Five years and counting for me mixed at 1/2 oz per gallon (as Idemitsu recommends for street applications).

no_more_rice

Correct. Even though I average 17-18 gallons per fill-up, I usually mix about 8 oz. Interceptor is great stuff. 1 oz per gallon will likely foul your plugs, unless you're at the track.

Wompa164

iTrader: (4)

Interesting. The first thing I noticed about this picture aside from the lack of carbon was also the lack of luster - the rotor itself looks really, really dry, to the point of putting extra wear on moving parts? The rotor housing looks like it's pretty worn (lacking a lot of the chrome finish), can you comment on the mileage of the housings and the type of seals used in this motor?

From what I've seen over the years, it's my opinion that premixing plays a fairly small part in the way of keeping rotary engines clean and healthy, compared to the benefits that auxiliary injection (water or meth), driving the car hard and getting a proper tune provide. From the pictures that Banzai Racing posted a few pages back, I'm going to venture a guess that the unnamed "traveling tuner" was Steve Kahn formerly of Gotham Racing. My engine was built by Gotham Racing and tuned by Steve Kahn a few years back and fell just short of 15,000 miles of very light driving before cracking a seal. I have a hard time driving the hell out of my cars, which I think played a part in the engines premature death. I haven't cracked the engine open yet, but when I get around to it (possibly next week) I suspect I'm going to see a lot of carbon and a chipped/cracked apex seal, again similar to the pictures that Banzai Racing posted.

just startn

iTrader: (33)

the car was 100% all orignal, orignal owner. alll stock zero mods. s4. the housings actually look reallly good in real life. ill put them next to my old housings and take a pic, the difference is night and day. all its insides are really nice and everything was perfectly on spec.

RX7.Pilot

iTrader: (8)

Here is a little vid for the lubrication system.

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.c...il-system.html

Finster

iTrader: (1)

Where's the OP on this thread? Long gone. Because maybe he realizes there's more than one way to skin a cat.

My motor died at 186k, went through two omp's and never premixed once. That's not the norm and I'm not building my next motor with the belief it will last half that long this time around.

I am losing the omp and adding a big fat "Premix!" sticker to my gas cap. The arguement why has been well-stated here.The greatest factor is that I'm gonna run a PFC now, which wont do jack if the omp goes bad. Premix ratio? Hmm, I'm of the belief that the useage of the car should be the deciding factor.
Once I crack open my 186k motor (which was mostly stock) will it be loaded with carbon? Probably. Will HC's motor last 186k? probably not. These damn rotaries have too many highly important ancilliary systems to have 100% science on anything.

That guy who's motor cracked at 15k after being built by GR and tuned by "The Man", I feel for you, bro. But there's something wrong with any motor that is broken after 15k of "light driving". That just aint right.
If you built up enough carbon in 15k WITH a proper tune then you gotta treat that as an anomaly. Apex seals are a bitch.
There's no reason not to get AI, IMO. Thats a bigger difference maker than omp or premix.
Guys in my Army unit would last the entire deployment without cleaning the carbon from their rifles. But, I would tell them that it works great until the moment it doesnt.