no_more_rice

The interesting aspect of this that has not been discussed (and would be extremely difficult to prove) is what relationship excessive carbon deposits have with premature engine failure. Little question it can contribute to "hot spots" in the combustion chamber. The main reason I run Amsoil Interceptor is it has been proven to significantly reduce these deposits, with the relatively high % of detergent additives. I've seen it first hand with the power valves on my waverunner.

no_more_rice

Little question that was a contributing factor. These cars need a trip to redline regularly tp blow the carbon off the rotors. My car NEVER sees a trip without a good WFO run...usually to dust off ubiquitous ricers or humble that 2009 Cayman S driver who thinks he's such a badass (too bad he gets smoked)

Great vid....shows my attempting to extrapolate two stroke pre-mix ratios to a four stroke rotary engine is utterly absurd.

This vid also indicates that oil from the OMP is introduced to the intake manifold, which is no different from pre-mix - and contrary to little barban who keeps babbling that the two stroke pre-mix oil is all "burned off" before it can lubricate anything, which is also absurd

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Oil is not introduced to the intake maifold on the FD. The OMP feeds two oil injectors mounted directly in the rotor housings only.

The vid is representative of the FC oil injection system which is comprised of four injectors.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

So, you use Amsoil 2 cycle?? But when I post dilution factor chart from Amsoil you say this?

I think you are having hard time correlating comparison between two things.

Again, just running 2 cycle alone without OMP should NOT be recommended to people WITHOUT scientific proof. And, yes, just howard's picture of his rotor doesn't count as scientific proof... if you think that's a proof, than I don't know what to tell you.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! I've stated this multiple times... As no one really knows what this excessive carbon build up is.

SLOASFK

iTrader: (5)

I don't know, but I've already had a scare with my 8 caused by excessive carbon build up. I thought it was blown, thankfully Dave has more sense than I do and fixed me up

no_more_rice

Just for the heck of it, based on this crazy thread, I tried pre-mixing a fatter ratio on my last fill-up: about 3/4 oz per gallon. Sure enough, the car starts missing under hard acceleration. It eventually cleared up and ran fine when I revved the **** out of it and drove very aggressively (good thing there were no cops around), but, once again, the 1/2 oz per gallon ratio is proven correct in my experience (no OMP). The Amsoil Interceptor synthetic two stroke oil may also have a higher burn-off temp than dino oils, who knows.

Bottom line: mix richer than 1/2 oz per gallon on the street at your own risk! You may wet foul your plugs.

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

do you have any ignition upgrades? it would make sense that people who need to premix a richer mixture are also the people that would need something like a twin power or jacobs ignition amplifier.

sinned2545

iTrader: (7)

I see it as a extra precaution..... not unnecessary..
I do the same as rich.... Premix & stock OMP..... I had a slight oil leak that turned into a big deal over night.... it seemed like it was coming from the pan at the time. turns out my omp was shot and if it wasn't for the premix my motor would have been FRIED!!!!

Premix is like condoms....
"I rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it"

no_more_rice

Stock coils (newer) and Denso Iridiums.

I've never had a probelm with this set-up and don't plan to run a TP (which fries plugs faster) just to run and unecessarily fat pre-mix ratio - and likely lose power in the process

no_more_rice

This is why I rely solely on pre-mix. If your OMP fails, you may not realize it until significant damage has already occurred.

You do not need both. I've been running 1/2 oz per gallon for years (30k miles) with no OMP and RX-7 World runs 1/4 oz per gallon in their single turbo cars, which put down alot more power.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

My concern about having a lot of carbon is that it eventually cruds up the seals/grooves--otherwise carbon coating acts as an insulator; keeping some amount heat off the rotor and out of the oil. If you can manage the hot spots, then there is no net loss. When I ran short track, it was well known that engines didn't produce the best power until they were carbon-ed up.


I run both. And I see the use of Premix as supplemental. Since I got 100,000+ hard miles out of my last motor, I have a sense that the OMP does work. I therefore premix at 1/4oz per gallon fuel. As I approach 1/2oz/gal, I start to notice pronounced oil smoke & two-cycle smell, which is unacceptable for a daily driver.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

nearly seventeen years and counting for my car (1993 original engine) using the omp (as Mazda intended for street applications)

also had an 84 FB that lasted 160k miles never premixed

no_more_rice

I never said the OMP doesn't work, I ran it on my stock car for at least 5 years. However, I believe pre-mixing synthetic two stroke oil is the best option....why?

1) Synthetic two stroke oil is clean burning (four stroke oil was never intended to burn off in the combustion chamber, there are differences in formulation between two and four stroke oils!) and does not leave significant carbon deposits. This statement is well documented by Amsoil.

2) Metering pumps are never 100% reliable, especially with high mileage cars. If and when it fails, you're causing damage to your motor, and you won't even know it.

3) I don't like to keep adding four stroke oil as the metering pump injects it. My engine doesn't use or leak ANY oil.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Mark, you're leaving a lot on the table by forgoing the twinpower. I used to poopoo it, but I'm a believer now.

proz07

iTrader: (6)

havent read all 15 pgs but anybody ever think about the hp vs how much oil premix in relation to what actual hp you are making? as in why add more premix for more HP? your already doing this by adding more fuel to make more HP..... I.E. more premixed fuel equals more ludericating oil???

z

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Wait a minute... Is it just me or do I think this is quite funny and doesn't make sense?
You say its well documented (before Idemitsu and now Amsoil), and that Synthetic two stroke is clean burning... But at ratio of 1:256 vs 1:170, you get miss firing at 1:170. How could you make a statement such as clean buring when just 1/4 of oz more per gallon does this??

Just as you and others state about those being lazy for not pre-mixing, you could check OMP for proper function once a year. Also, as I stated before, people have driven without OMP for thousands of miles without ill affect.

This last reason doesn't even make sense to what has been discussed.. You call people 'lazy' but isn't this also called laziness?


Now, let me post what I've found out so far..

I've contacted Idemitsu myself.

Here is my conversation with them (to let you guys come to conclusion).

So, I emailed them on March 10th, 2010


Scott wrote me back less than 10 mins later...
My response back to him to see if they have other studies besides the patent paper I've read...

Scott responded less than an hour later..

My respond to him regarding what I know..

Scott did not respond for 5 days.. So, I sent him a reminder email..

Scott replies less than 10 mins later...
Two days later he contacts me back and wrote this..

I've called and left a message with the manager... but my opinion is that there is no direct study of this 2 cycle and rotary engine... and someone is misleading and telling people to use it without OMP... but as I stated, there are people not using OMP or 2cycle that went thousands without an issue... So, its hard to say..

ifryrice

There are a few problems with what you were stating, or quoting from your emails. You talk about variable rates from the original OMP, and then question a static rate with the OMP disabled. The rate isn't static though, only the dilution ratio is. As load/temperature/etc varies, so does fuel load. Given that fuel load is now your delivery method, this also variably changes the oil delivery conditions.

Clean burning and the ability to ignite aren't really related. It can burn cleanly, but be harder to ignite (causing ignition breakup).

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

That is true. I guess I didn't think in that term when I wrote that. But you are right. Fuel load will change and so called lubrication via 2 cycle will change, but also lack of fuel means lack of lubrications when fuel is not injected (say 100MPH Decel). Still not sure if combination of ignitability and dilution factor is well documented for me to believe such ratio or pre-mix alone will so called, "save our motors".

ifryrice

Sadly all we've got to work with is what information we have. We know using two cycle oil results in a by far cleaner engine. We also know people have run without pumps at all for a considerable time without damage, which would imply that the seals don't wear nearly as fast as a comparable 2 cycle without oil. This could help explain why a lesser dilution works. Given the lesser pressures of decel and the relatively short time periods (comparatively) its effect during fuel cut is probably so minor as to not even be worried about. I think the only real argument left is with ratio, and currently it seems the lifespan of an engine is shorter than any issue resulting from the premix ratios. So getting a good baseline for comparing rate of wear between a premix ratio and the stock OMP ratio will probably never happen. So far I've taken the approach that more than likely the failure will be something unrelated to my premix ratio, so I just use the typical recommendation.

X Factor

iTrader: (4)

Maybe I missed it but as I understand it you can configure a Power FC to disable the OMP.
Is it also necessary to remove the OMP?
Do you have to remove the injection lines as well?
Can the OMP removed with the engine in the car?

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

I believe so
no
no
I believe so

X Factor

iTrader: (4)

If you have a Power FC:
Can you just unplug the OMP connector?
With the connector unplugged will the OMP do any injection?

streetdreamzny

iTrader: (6)

I have a question a little of the subject but I noticed that my oil injectors are capped where the vacuum lines go. Everything else is still in place omp, lines ect. What effect does this have on the omp operation. It has been this way for awhile, hopefully it didn't destroy anything. Thanks in advance.

Sandrock

iTrader: (26)

I have said Rotary Aviaton mod with Tank and running Amsoil Dominator Racing 2 Stroke