The Monsterbox 4 Rotor
06-26-16, 01:14 AM
#351
Update:
Tonight, worked on the chassis a little. Finished up wiring the boost gauge and sending unit, the oil pressure gauge sender to the gauges. Mounting the 12 pt switch on the dash, finished checking over all the subframe bolts. Mounted the anti-sub belts bolts to the floor board with underside plates and test fitted seats. Mocked up block off plate for the firewall so that the firewall harness connector can be mounted to the plate. Can't decide if should weld this in or rivet. Kinda don't want to weld up the firewall in case decide later to add more holes etc / redo something.
So far there's not too much left to do. Need to run the fuel level wire and low-fuel light wire to the fuel level gauge which will be mounted overhead on the cage. Plan is to get every last thing on the chassis finished so that its hopefully just a drop in of the motor, plug in the harness and install all of the components and fire up!
Also looking into transmission options.
There's a new company out making sequentials that are drop-in to the FD rated to 800ft/lbs. HGT Precision gearboxes. Anyone interested in sequentials should check these out. Hell of an option compared to the HKS / Hollinger on price. Billet 7075-T6 CNC Case and Swiss designed straight cut gears finished at DIN 6 (DIN 4 is the finish rating for F1, lower the number better the quality, most competitors are DIN12). You can choose the input / output shaft etc. Pretty cool. The case is also the exact dimensions of the FD unit and bell housing, so zero modification required. The shifter is adjustable, can be cut to desired height and can be mounted inward / outward in varying degrees. The system does require a small cooler and pump. Believe it or not, the price is actually not much more than going t56 in the end!
Most likely going to get it running on the stock trans first, there's alot of test and tune that needs to be done and no reason to spend on trans until necessary, assess all systems and break-in the engine/see how she does. Really want to see how/if/why the stock transmission breaks. Thinking to monitor trans temp so its data-logged when breakage occurs.
Also looking into various methods of tuning. Talking with a very skilled tuner tonight, we discussed idea of running TPS and MAP. Basically tuning on TPS at low load and using MAP sensor as boost compensation in a 4D table. TPS based tuning will allow some resolution for tuning low load. Its kind of undetermined how much exhaust gas pull-up the backpressure from the turbine may cause. But on the TPS tuning, may be able to retard the timing to slug up the engine some and allow more throttle, to decrease vaccum on cruising loads to help reduce the overlap/bronco ride haha. We will also be using the VSS and ABS wheel speed sensor for traction control logic and boost by gear. 3 port boost solenoid running to the haltech box. Because the intercooler is kind of a one-off design with some speculation, there will be two map sensors and two air temp sensors. Measuring MAP for the the ECU's tables at the manifold, post throttle body but pre intercooler. Then on the other side of the intercooler will use the internal map off the ECU to asses pressure drop. Since car won't require high boost, using external sensor with lower range should provide more resolution. IAT will be measured pre/post intercooler to measure efficiency. Just really curious to see how well/not-well this integrated cooler works
Still a little speculative on the capabilities of the internal oil pump. May consider single-stage Peterson external pump while keeping the wet sump, but going to talk it over some more with the engine builder.
Waiting till engine ships to order the EWP, EGT system, injectors, etc. Wiring harness ships in a week or so. Need to practice making hardlines, never made hardlines before and would be nice to run on the wastegates for durability/cleanliness. Do you guys prefer stainless or aluminum when making 3an sized lines?
Checked back over timelog tonight, just hit ~1,300 hrs. Alot of that is probably sitting around acting a fool with my dudes in the unit, but its cool to look back and see how much work has been done. Its kinda of scary to be honest. License plate should say NOLIFE lmao. At this point, there's not a second that goes by from head down to head up that rotary doesn't enter the mind, but gotta keep pushing!
Anyhow thanks for following guys, and hopefully will be taking yall for a ride soon on the go-pro again!
things looking up!
P.S. About to sign up for Rotors Magazine. If you guys don't know about him, Matt Vincent owns Rotor's Magazine. Pretty badass digital magazine releasing shortly. He stays off the forums, but he's an absolute animal. The guys built 4 20b cars and counting, just got one running this week. He's done coutless 13b's etc, 2 or 3 with water-to-air systems. Its crazy the skills that are out there. Real cool guy, check out his magazine, also offer some good prices on parts; picked up these coils from him and he made the brackets.
Just got Nathan's (silver6portFD) ole drive shaft in the mail today. Another contender for the destruction derby haha!
Tonight, worked on the chassis a little. Finished up wiring the boost gauge and sending unit, the oil pressure gauge sender to the gauges. Mounting the 12 pt switch on the dash, finished checking over all the subframe bolts. Mounted the anti-sub belts bolts to the floor board with underside plates and test fitted seats. Mocked up block off plate for the firewall so that the firewall harness connector can be mounted to the plate. Can't decide if should weld this in or rivet. Kinda don't want to weld up the firewall in case decide later to add more holes etc / redo something.
So far there's not too much left to do. Need to run the fuel level wire and low-fuel light wire to the fuel level gauge which will be mounted overhead on the cage. Plan is to get every last thing on the chassis finished so that its hopefully just a drop in of the motor, plug in the harness and install all of the components and fire up!
Also looking into transmission options.
There's a new company out making sequentials that are drop-in to the FD rated to 800ft/lbs. HGT Precision gearboxes. Anyone interested in sequentials should check these out. Hell of an option compared to the HKS / Hollinger on price. Billet 7075-T6 CNC Case and Swiss designed straight cut gears finished at DIN 6 (DIN 4 is the finish rating for F1, lower the number better the quality, most competitors are DIN12). You can choose the input / output shaft etc. Pretty cool. The case is also the exact dimensions of the FD unit and bell housing, so zero modification required. The shifter is adjustable, can be cut to desired height and can be mounted inward / outward in varying degrees. The system does require a small cooler and pump. Believe it or not, the price is actually not much more than going t56 in the end!
Most likely going to get it running on the stock trans first, there's alot of test and tune that needs to be done and no reason to spend on trans until necessary, assess all systems and break-in the engine/see how she does. Really want to see how/if/why the stock transmission breaks. Thinking to monitor trans temp so its data-logged when breakage occurs.
Also looking into various methods of tuning. Talking with a very skilled tuner tonight, we discussed idea of running TPS and MAP. Basically tuning on TPS at low load and using MAP sensor as boost compensation in a 4D table. TPS based tuning will allow some resolution for tuning low load. Its kind of undetermined how much exhaust gas pull-up the backpressure from the turbine may cause. But on the TPS tuning, may be able to retard the timing to slug up the engine some and allow more throttle, to decrease vaccum on cruising loads to help reduce the overlap/bronco ride haha. We will also be using the VSS and ABS wheel speed sensor for traction control logic and boost by gear. 3 port boost solenoid running to the haltech box. Because the intercooler is kind of a one-off design with some speculation, there will be two map sensors and two air temp sensors. Measuring MAP for the the ECU's tables at the manifold, post throttle body but pre intercooler. Then on the other side of the intercooler will use the internal map off the ECU to asses pressure drop. Since car won't require high boost, using external sensor with lower range should provide more resolution. IAT will be measured pre/post intercooler to measure efficiency. Just really curious to see how well/not-well this integrated cooler works
Still a little speculative on the capabilities of the internal oil pump. May consider single-stage Peterson external pump while keeping the wet sump, but going to talk it over some more with the engine builder.
Waiting till engine ships to order the EWP, EGT system, injectors, etc. Wiring harness ships in a week or so. Need to practice making hardlines, never made hardlines before and would be nice to run on the wastegates for durability/cleanliness. Do you guys prefer stainless or aluminum when making 3an sized lines?
Checked back over timelog tonight, just hit ~1,300 hrs. Alot of that is probably sitting around acting a fool with my dudes in the unit, but its cool to look back and see how much work has been done. Its kinda of scary to be honest. License plate should say NOLIFE lmao. At this point, there's not a second that goes by from head down to head up that rotary doesn't enter the mind, but gotta keep pushing!
Anyhow thanks for following guys, and hopefully will be taking yall for a ride soon on the go-pro again!
things looking up!
P.S. About to sign up for Rotors Magazine. If you guys don't know about him, Matt Vincent owns Rotor's Magazine. Pretty badass digital magazine releasing shortly. He stays off the forums, but he's an absolute animal. The guys built 4 20b cars and counting, just got one running this week. He's done coutless 13b's etc, 2 or 3 with water-to-air systems. Its crazy the skills that are out there. Real cool guy, check out his magazine, also offer some good prices on parts; picked up these coils from him and he made the brackets.
Just got Nathan's (silver6portFD) ole drive shaft in the mail today. Another contender for the destruction derby haha!
Last edited by Monsterbox; 06-26-16 at 01:51 AM.
06-26-16, 04:37 PM
#353
Would be stoked to see you run that!
I have all the pricing on PDF i can send you, give me a call sometime lets catch up
Look on the facebook page, they have on an FD absolutely killing it
The boxes look so badass. Cheaper to service then the HKS units. New company and seem motivated to get out there. Biggest selling point to me in basically a drop in unit. You can fit it to auto/manual iron, forward or rearward mounted starter!
Have to restrain from engaging in this sex, stock trans stock trans stock trans
Last edited by Monsterbox; 06-26-16 at 04:46 PM.
06-26-16, 06:16 PM
#357
Love the gearbox. I checked out the FD video on their facebook page and that box sounds bit loud... it seems to completely overwhelm the raceprepped rotary exhaust. still tempted. hope they can do helical option for at least 5th and 6th gear. It's not about lap time for me.. it's more about reliability and some reasonable driving comfort.
your turbo'd pp 4 rotor may be little louder than this gearbox though lol
your turbo'd pp 4 rotor may be little louder than this gearbox though lol
06-26-16, 06:17 PM
#358
Love the gearbox. I checked out the FD video on their facebook page and that box sounds bit loud... it seems to completely overwhelm the raceprepped rotary exhaust. still tempted. hope they can do helical option for at least 5th and 6th gear. It's not about lap time for me.. it's more about reliability and some reasonable driving comfort.
your turbo'd pp 4 rotor may be little louder than this gearbox though lol
your turbo'd pp 4 rotor may be little louder than this gearbox though lol
the SCREAM of those gears is juicy AF!
ALSo!
I do know of a shop who's cutting adapter plates that now allow manual bellhousing and starter for the t56, I'll try to find the name again. He's successfully mounted them
Its the guy from street-outlaws the tv show w/ the 13b
Last edited by Monsterbox; 06-26-16 at 06:20 PM.
06-26-16, 06:19 PM
#359
Will try to get more details, but I believe its suppose to work with a factory position engine/trans location
But there's not much a BFH can't solve (big f*n hammer) haha
The 4 rotor will be in factory positioning
But there's not much a BFH can't solve (big f*n hammer) haha
The 4 rotor will be in factory positioning
Last edited by Monsterbox; 06-26-16 at 06:22 PM.
06-26-16, 09:27 PM
#360
Yes, FC/20b type CAS. Would rather use this CAS, just because its tried and true. Boost should be pretty low, less than 15psi, so if there's even a tiny bit of scatter shoudn't be too terribly risky. Good thing is the coils are along the frame rail and alternator is side mounted so the shielded wire should be well away from these items that could introduce interference
As long as the CAS wires are shielded, you should be fine. Newer ECUs are are pretty good with built in VR conditioners too, so I don't forsee and issue.
06-27-16, 12:22 PM
#364
Actually, yes I have.
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
This is on a 13B, but the principle is the same. The LS swap guys use them as well, since the LS engine has a poorly designed sump that causes oil starvation at high G-loads.
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 1 of 2)
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 2 of 2)
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
This is on a 13B, but the principle is the same. The LS swap guys use them as well, since the LS engine has a poorly designed sump that causes oil starvation at high G-loads.
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 1 of 2)
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 2 of 2)
06-27-16, 12:32 PM
#365
Actually, yes I have.
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
This is on a 13B, but the principle is the same. The LS swap guys use them as well, since the LS engine has a poorly designed sump that causes oil starvation at high G-loads.
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 1 of 2)
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 2 of 2)
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
This is on a 13B, but the principle is the same. The LS swap guys use them as well, since the LS engine has a poorly designed sump that causes oil starvation at high G-loads.
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 1 of 2)
Project V8 RX-7: More Oiling Insurance from Improved Racing, Accusump and Earl's (Part 2 of 2)
Thanks Dude!
Yea looks like a good plan around full dry sump sytem
06-27-16, 12:47 PM
#367
Just spent about an hour running through lots of the pages . Man oh man you will have one hell of a machine when she's tuned and rolling . Please put some videos up of that monster. It will be one of the baddest rotarys for sure in the street/show.
06-27-16, 03:09 PM
#368
Monsterbox
Anyone seen an Accusump on rotary? Seems like a economical solution to potential oil starvation on high-g's etc or if a line / cooler failed
I remember some rotary circuit racer on this forum data logged his oil pressure at the track.
The oil pressure would drop out when the pick-up was starved for oil during peak cornering Gs.
He put an Accusump system on and found oil pressure would drop less when the pick-up was starved for oil during peak cornering Gs but then remain low on corner exit as the oil pump now had to supply oil to the bearings and rotors as well as re-fill the Accusump. If the corners were in quick succession the oil pressure would now just remain low.
He decided it was better to have low oil pressure with low load (going around the corner with neutral throttle) than have low oil pressure with high load (corner exit throttle on) and so he took the Accusump off.
If your oil pump is already taxed for flow (not just pressure) I could see the Accusump potentially being a bad move.
The rotary has a really "leaky" oil system that taxes the flow of the oil pump even on 2 rotors.
I don't know what size rotor cooling jets the 4 rotor you are having made will come with, but racers put the Mazda Factory Race rotor oil cooling jets in to restrict flow to the rotors and keep more flow to pressurize the bearings.
Best to ask the engine builder what they recommend.
Anyone seen an Accusump on rotary? Seems like a economical solution to potential oil starvation on high-g's etc or if a line / cooler failed
I remember some rotary circuit racer on this forum data logged his oil pressure at the track.
The oil pressure would drop out when the pick-up was starved for oil during peak cornering Gs.
He put an Accusump system on and found oil pressure would drop less when the pick-up was starved for oil during peak cornering Gs but then remain low on corner exit as the oil pump now had to supply oil to the bearings and rotors as well as re-fill the Accusump. If the corners were in quick succession the oil pressure would now just remain low.
He decided it was better to have low oil pressure with low load (going around the corner with neutral throttle) than have low oil pressure with high load (corner exit throttle on) and so he took the Accusump off.
If your oil pump is already taxed for flow (not just pressure) I could see the Accusump potentially being a bad move.
The rotary has a really "leaky" oil system that taxes the flow of the oil pump even on 2 rotors.
I don't know what size rotor cooling jets the 4 rotor you are having made will come with, but racers put the Mazda Factory Race rotor oil cooling jets in to restrict flow to the rotors and keep more flow to pressurize the bearings.
Best to ask the engine builder what they recommend.
06-27-16, 04:30 PM
#369
This is the best response thus far, actually. I know in my experience that the LS engines do well with them, but they also have the luxury of high volume pumps.
The accusump is also dependent on what pressure you set the chamber to. So you can set it low to the 30-40 psi range and have it only engage low, or set it to the 70-90 psi range, but that is also dependent on your static hot oil pressure. You don't want to keep filling it constantly and fighting it.
06-27-16, 08:02 PM
#370
I think the best solution is fit oil pressure feedback on your ecu to limit throttle/retard timing/limit rpm etc. etc. rather than this gizmo. I had one in the past. It was bulky and cumbersome. Never got around to installing it. Actually it was one of my endless ebay finds that worked great in my head until I saw it with my eyes. 
06-27-16, 08:15 PM
#371
Rotary Enthusiast
The dude from Speed Academy runs one (or did anyway).
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
He's a member here, although not sure of forum name...
Project Rotary Race Mule: Canton Racing Accusump Install | Speed Academy
He's a member here, although not sure of forum name...
06-27-16, 10:58 PM
#373
I think the best solution is fit oil pressure feedback on your ecu to limit throttle/retard timing/limit rpm etc. etc. rather than this gizmo. I had one in the past. It was bulky and cumbersome. Never got around to installing it. Actually it was one of my endless ebay finds that worked great in my head until I saw it with my eyes.
06-28-16, 12:06 AM
#374
I don't know if we've covered this or not but your still gonna have to be careful running this engine at higher rpms with the 20b oil pump. Remember that same pump looses flow on a 20b at 8,500 rpms. In a 4 rotor, that could drop down to 7,000 (speculation). Remember pumps don't create pressure only flow so that accumulator thing won't help you up top (where you need max pressure).
06-28-16, 12:27 AM
#375
Rotary Enthusiast
