I'm taking the right precautions: properly built/streetported motor with ALS seals, meth/water injection, enough fuel, big enough/efficient enough turbo, properly wired harness (no broken plugs here), and I'm getting a tuner I fully trust and who has years of experience to tune it. I might as well see what it has, plus I don't have to run all of it all the time...its just there when I need/want it . But enough diversion/hijacking, this thread is about Asset's beautiful and properly running beast of an FD.

 

Mine has been holding together fine. Going on 3 years Not sure why you would consider it a recipe for disaster, would you care to elaborate on that? If you've seen enough fail to classify it as such can you tell me 'how' or 'what' caused these engines to fail?

I tried the car out tonight at 25psi (1.7Bar)...it ran perfectly fine. I have reached the limits of my ebay intercooler unfortunately, for the money it can't be beat, it'll support 90% of the builds on this forum. I backed it down to 23.5psi and it'll remain there until I can get a nice Bell Intercooler under the hood. SMG944 and others had great power gains and beautiful improvements to their IAT's after making the same switch, I doubt anyone would expect different though

I'll be looking forward to your findings on disaster stories and their 'ingredients'

Nice! Ill be keeping an eye on your thread. It's addicting be careful, a fun experience non the less.

 

^ you may have a point but truthfully......I just believe our motors to be much more delicate as far as strength from the factory. If you look at evo guys or even older Srt-4 Neons...you see guys just turning up the boost on their motors.. 20+ lbs of boost is nothing... stock bottom ends are good for 500 whp as long as you can stuff enough air into them. I don't believe the same to be true with our motors. It takes a lot more for a rotary to be able to get to the same level with the same reliability ya know? nothing against your car....it looks great and looks to be set up well with all necessary supporting mods. But I just feel like 25lbs is just about reaching the limits before you get into race clearancing and lightening rotors etc. It may run fine now...but if you keep her there and beat on her she'll definitely let you know. ..of course..i'll be expecting you to make me eat my words if she holds up. Good luck brotha... I'll be rooting for ya.

 

I made it to the dyno and I'm quite pleased with the turbo to say the least. It made 483.4hp/384.3tq @23psi. 10.6-10.7 AFR's.

500hp is just around the corner I would post up dyno graphs/video but I havent figured out to convert any of this stuff yet. But it'll be coming.

 

I'll post it for Mr. Asset since he is slow.



thewird

 

look at that torque curve. looks na. maybe cause the pull was started after 4k?

Congrats on the beast!

 

Wow congrats on the build. Your taste of exterior mods really modernized the car while at the same time keeping it low key and original.

I do have a question for you, when are you seeing full boost? I have a 6766 ready to be strapped on with a 1.15 AR, but I'm thinking of running only 18psi MAX now for some reliability, but some slight creep to 19 or 20 will be okay lol. I'm thinking of dropping down to a 6266 after seeing your results, that should put me around low 400's at 18-20psi with fairly quick response. Again great build, I read it from page 1.

 

I may have some other dyno charts that show a pull starting earlier, I'll have to check through them. The turbo is definitely holds its own! Great response, very good manners on the street. 500hp @23-24psi is VERY reasonable.

I do appreciate it, I managed to get some good pics taken of the car as well, I'll post those up too when I get the chance. I'm seeing full boost between 4100-4200rpm...it'll vary on a few things as well depending on your setup. I am actually going to be putting this turbo up for sale and upgrading to a 6766. Yes if your goals are as you describe my turbo would fit the bill!

There will be more good stuff to come this winter, it happens every year

 

Why did you get a 1.15 A/R if you were only planning on running that much boost. It is going to be lazy, I'd expect full boost around 4.5k. You do realize that turbo is capable of 500 rwhp at 20 PSi depending engine mods? If you wanted quick response and low 400 rwhp, the 0.84 A/R divided housing would have been ideal.

thewird

 

Great numbers, definitely seems very stout and a blast to drive. This makes me anxious to get my setup tuned.

 

This setup just looks perfect and works great -- hard to imagine you are moving on to another unit! Great build thread.

 

I'm just having second thoughts on my original build plans. Maybe I will keep it and make a monster, else I'll sell it to a supra owner. It all depends which path my career and housing situation takes this summer aka budget. I could always look into swapping housings or something no ?

Asset, I'm sure your going to have a blast if you do decide on going with the 6766, but considering your ~500 hp numbers are similiar to say smg's low boost/pump gas setup that was nearing the limit for pump gas and around 500hp as well, are you planning to run e85 or race gas to take the next turbo even farther?

 

I'm running water injection as well, I'd imagine I have more room to breath before I put race gas in the tank. I'd probably use E85 if I make the switch, it's all over the place here.

 

Love the car, can you shoot me a copy of your map? I'm curious where to go with timing above 16psi with water injection on my build. (Looks kind of similar haha)

 

So how did your ignition system handle up to the boost and water? I believe I read you have twin power, stock coils, and 10.5 plugs? I'm asking because I'm just wondering how my system will hold up with basically the same setup except 11 plugs. I'm getting tuned Friday, and I'm just reading all build threads right now to hold me off from being too anxious from the wait lol. I also have preturbo meth/water injection, 50/50 based of weight.

 

My AFR's needed to be leaned out a bit with the water, it was choking the motor a bit with the wideband dipping down to 10.6-10.7.

I unplugged the water for a couple pulls, and the car pulled much crisper as well as made more power. I'm running 10's all the way around with upgraded plug wires and the twin power.

I imagine if the mixture were to be a bit leaner, you can probably get away with a twin power. I'll be upgrading my ignition to help things out. I'd rather have more water and still be able to fire it anyway.

 

Yeah, definitely makes sense. I know I'll wind up upgrading the coils in a later tune maybe before the big supra meet in March...gotta represent for the rotaries lol, just trying to see how it will cope with stock coils and twin power for now.

 

my compliments on an excellent overall build.

most understand that adding water puts out some of the fire and reduces power.

here are some numbers that should add a finer resolution to the picture:

it takes approx 109,000 BTUs to make 500 rw rotary hp.

you are running a 13NCM7 super atomising nozzle.

the "7" refers to M7 which is a rating for nozzle flow at 100 psi.
7 is 7 gallons per hour.

an M1 is 1 GPH or 63 CC/Min

an M7, therefore flows 441 CC/Minute at 100 PSI

actual gross flow is dependent on the output of your pump

flow increases w the square root of the pressure increase.

if you have a 150 PSI pump the flow would increase 22.4% over the 100 PSI pump

if you have Coolingmist's 200 PSI pump the flow would increase 41.4% over the 100 PSI pump.

note that is gross, not net, flow.

net flow is gross flow minus the pressure to open the (cracking) checkvalve and manifold gauge pressure (MGP) which is 22 psi.

therefore, at 22 psi boost your net PSI is

150 psi minus 2 minus 22 or 126

square root of 126/100 = 1.12

net flow is 7 X 63 CC/Min X 1.12 = 494 CC/Min

if you have the 200 PSI pump:

at 22 PSI, your net PSI is

200 PSI minus 2 minus 22 = 176

square root of 176/100 = 1.33

net flow is 7 X 63 X 1.33 = 586 CC/Min

water contains 8807 cooling BTUs per gallon

cooling BTUs offset fuel BTUs one for one.

150 PSI pump = 494 CC/Min = .13 Gallons Per Minute

200 PSI pump = 586 CC/Min = .15 Gallons Per Minute

Net Cooling BTUs

150 PSI pump .13 X 8087 = 1051 cooling BTUs

200 PSI pump .15 X 8087 = 1213 cooling BTUs

it takes 109,000 BTUs at 11.1 AFR to make 500 rw rotary hp

w the 150 PSI pump, the addition of water w your 13NCM7 (M7) nozzle you are negating .0096 of your fuel.

w the 200 PSI pump you are negating .011

if, for example, your tune was 11.0 AFR without water and you added water your tune would change by the following:

150 pump 10.89 AFR w water

200 pump 10.88 AFR w water

hp cost would drop accordingly.

if you were to replace 100% water w a pretty much non-flammable mixture of 50% water and 50% methanol (based on volume) you would gain fuel BTUs.

1/2 gallon of water is 4043 negative BTUs (otherwise referred to as latent cooling)
1/2 gallon of methanol is 28,625 positive BTUs

a gallon of 50/50 WM, therefore, would contain 24,582 net fuel/positive BTUs

given your net AI delivery:

150 PSI pump .13 GPM X 24,582 = 3195 additional fuel BTUs

200 PSI pump = .15 GPM X 24,582 = 3687 additional BTUs

the switch from 100% water to 50/50 WM allowed RiceRacing to raise his boost from approx 20 to over 30 psi. i believe that he has run that setup for more than a year and had at that time a healthy engine. the fact that the mix allowed a higher boost, i believe, is totally relevant to someone running 17 or 20 psi. a better mix delivers benefits at all levels.

Executive Summary:

water does have a small (1% or thereabouts) power cost but more than makes up for it by lowering internal temps and removing carbon. using BTU calculations it is easy to calculate the cost

water/meth accomplishes the same thing as to lowering internal temps and cleaning but does not exact an energy cost

WM is generally not flammable.

as to turbos...

when considering a mid-size "67"

the P6765 compressor is 6.997 av square inches
the PT6765 turbine is 5.885 sq inches

the BW S300 (part number 177283) comp is 7.06
the BW S300 (") turbine is 6.31 sq inches!

the P6265 is 6.448 comp
the tubine is 5.88

the additional important distinction is the BW is a 52 Trim and the P67 is a 63.
the BW is avail w a 1.00 hotside (PN 177209) and the price is an eye opener.
see AreaDiesel.com. i have zero financial affiliation w AD.

i have run the turbo and will be further evaluating it in the next few weeks.

i am not knocking other turbos here, just offering some options.

again, you have a really really nice built FD and i extend my compliments to you.

howard

 

Rice was the first one to run 30 PSi on 100% pure water. 20 PSi was not and is not the limit of water. 50/50 just makes more power. The difference being if AI fails for whatever reason with water, your engine does not blow immediately, with 50/50 it will. When a 50/50 mix is used, a proper failsafe is very important. I've had good success with the new AEM Failsafe units.

thewird

 

Thanks for the good information I am in fact running the 200psi pump...That baby is definitely pumping some water

I've been trying to find it again, but what are the numbers in terms of how much water you should be injecting for a desired power goal?

I'm anxious to toss a 6766 on there. I imagine I'll be dancing around the limit for the motor before its necessary to dowel the little dorito. My goal is mid 500's. Minor fuel upgrade and ignition I should be ready to do business.

I'll be adding the failsafe into the mix, I've thought about getting a progressive controller as well...CoolingMist has some nice options these days.

I know you were suggesting AEM coils...please direct me to them. Will they reduce the life of my spark plugs?

 

Get them from lms-efi. They won't reduce the life of your plugs, those plugs last a long time.

thewird

 

was it this unit ?
AEM Water Methanol FAILSAFE Device 1/4" SAE

Id be interested in your comments on it, its currently being discussed in the this thread

https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-in...adays-1005186/

TheAsset: awesome results by the way

 

i do like the basic concept behind the AEM FailSafe kit although i have no direct experience w it.

a number of years ago when i was addressing engine protection systems i was speaking w John at J & S Safeguard (active knock sensor modules) and he said something i still remember...

if you run into trouble on a rotary you need a save

ON THE NEXT ROTORFACE

my point is that if you do decide to run the AEM product, or any other active adjustment module don't expect you will be in the clear if you set it up to your wastegate. by the time it opens you are probably going to be calling your engine builder.

something electric (speed of light) needs to happen.

timing.

it does look like a properly thought out product. i really like looking at the whole delivery curve rather than just the peak flow.

howard

 

I think I'm going to have to disagree with that. If your counting on a knock sensor to be triggered and then react from it, that may be the case because knock in a rotary means bad things are happening NOW. But an AI failsafe is triggered before detonation starts to happen so in my opinion there is plenty of time for the boost to shut down before serious detonation starts to occur.

Besides anyone using a stock seal in a situation where things would be that on the edge for it to matter deserves whats coming to them. There is a reason we use these aftermarket seals, its not just to look pretty, they're another form of a failsafe. And its not like the stock seals are made of glass either lol.

thewird

 

Random question before I get tuned on Friday. I'm doing 50/50 preturbo water/meth injection. Would it be safe to do the mixture according to weight, or do I need to do it based on volume? I don't want to blow off couplers because the mixture preignited before reaching the motor.