The Monsterbox 4 Rotor
04-11-16, 04:54 PM
#151
motor
Zach. I dont blame you for being a little upset on the wait time. I think it's complete bullshit when people think it's industry standard to not produce in the quoted time. sure **** happens and you may get behind here and there. but to say it's nine weeks and going on 18 weeks is reason for alarm. at the minimum there should be communication going on so you see by pics and read by email what's going on. I would call every few days and bug the crap out of them.
so I have learned over the years to ask for a date. if they tell you 9 weeks I let them know I am calling in 4 weeks to check in. guess what ... I did this with liberty on my Tranny build and it came in on the day he said. same on my manifold build . got to stay on top. and for people to say it's ok it's standard is like people telling you that you won't get over 30k for your 3 rotor car.
so I have learned over the years to ask for a date. if they tell you 9 weeks I let them know I am calling in 4 weeks to check in. guess what ... I did this with liberty on my Tranny build and it came in on the day he said. same on my manifold build . got to stay on top. and for people to say it's ok it's standard is like people telling you that you won't get over 30k for your 3 rotor car.
04-11-16, 05:46 PM
#153
Unfortunately this is the nature of most shops who subcontract out their work. There aren't too many performance shops in the world that can do everything in-house. Your right though as a "lack" of a status update in very unprofessional. Hang in there bro!
04-12-16, 08:10 AM
#155
Let's hope so. What are you going to do if this engine needs a part in the future (that is whenever you get it and drive it)?
You're p-porting it correct? Maybe I'm not knowledgeable about the maintenance it needs (with that port), but are you planning on rebuilding this engine every season or what are your plans?
What seals? What rotors? What everything else?
I'm assuming you need to shell out another 1-4K on an intake system and then 1-6k on oil system and manifold.
Rich guy :p
04-12-16, 08:24 AM
#156
It sounds to me like the wait on a certain brand turbo kit alot of people on here ended up dealing with...where you are quoted 2-3 months, pay up front, never hear from them again, are unable to contact the manufacturer for months at a time, but feel semi-ok about it all because everyone and their mother swears by the guy...
Then randomly somewhere between month 12 and month 13 when you are feeling for sure you got bonered on the whole deal and don't even really care anymore, you get a random box of super well made parts in the mail and everything is awesome to the maximum.
Was it frustrating? Yes. Stressful? Yes. Did the man with the golden rep come though in the end? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes.
Injectors and fuel pumps aren't going to be going off the market anytime soon. I'd think just enjoy the phase you are at and keep on keepin' on, I have no doubts that motor will show up.
-Skeese
Then randomly somewhere between month 12 and month 13 when you are feeling for sure you got bonered on the whole deal and don't even really care anymore, you get a random box of super well made parts in the mail and everything is awesome to the maximum.
Was it frustrating? Yes. Stressful? Yes. Did the man with the golden rep come though in the end? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes.
Injectors and fuel pumps aren't going to be going off the market anytime soon. I'd think just enjoy the phase you are at and keep on keepin' on, I have no doubts that motor will show up.
-Skeese
04-12-16, 11:23 AM
#158
Let's hope so. What are you going to do if this engine needs a part in the future (that is whenever you get it and drive it)?
You're p-porting it correct? Maybe I'm not knowledgeable about the maintenance it needs (with that port), but are you planning on rebuilding this engine every season or what are your plans?
What seals? What rotors? What everything else?
I'm assuming you need to shell out another 1-4K on an intake system and then 1-6k on oil system and manifold.
Rich guy :p
You're p-porting it correct? Maybe I'm not knowledgeable about the maintenance it needs (with that port), but are you planning on rebuilding this engine every season or what are your plans?
What seals? What rotors? What everything else?
I'm assuming you need to shell out another 1-4K on an intake system and then 1-6k on oil system and manifold.
Rich guy :p
Mainly because more power on less boost, means less stress into the engine, less high strung / risk, less chance of detonation, and cooler IAT's. I don't particularly see why people claim a P-port diminishes engine life and requires constant rebuilds. Its realistically only another 2k rpm, and more than likely won't even rev that high on usual basis. , a 13b N/A Pport or even n/a 4 rotor is going to spend a lot more time at high rpm, because no turbo etc, so much more wear.
This engine has balanced rotational assembly, new housings, lightened / clearance rotors, race bearings, external oil feed modifications, etc the whole nine yards which hopefully should contribute to longevity.
PPRE makes their own apex seals for the engine.
The intake system is part of the price. PPRE is doing water-to-air collector and PPport v-band runners, doing the exhaust manifold, downpipe, oil pan two-piece design, and motor mounts. The 4 rotor "swap" in the engine bay is mainly all them when it comes to fabrication. I would have done this stuff with my own resources, but its just less risky as a whole to have their name behind all of the major fab pieces in my opinion.
Looking at it as a whole, it does seem like a lot to hammer out in 9 weeks, so again I'm not concerned about the delay. Its just seeing updates/progress that I'm after.
Last edited by Monsterbox; 04-12-16 at 11:31 AM.
04-12-16, 06:47 PM
#159
Maintenance is all anecdotal evidence. It seems to me that maintenance really hangs on how much the motor is abused and how well its built. On a street car, where I'm just rolling into boost every now and again, and spending brief moments at 10k rpm, I foresee this engine lasting a super long time, even longer than probably the 3 rotor car.
Mainly because more power on less boost, means less stress into the engine, less high strung / risk, less chance of detonation, and cooler IAT's. I don't particularly see why people claim a P-port diminishes engine life and requires constant rebuilds. Its realistically only another 2k rpm, and more than likely won't even rev that high on usual basis. , a 13b N/A Pport or even n/a 4 rotor is going to spend a lot more time at high rpm, because no turbo etc, so much more wear.
This engine has balanced rotational assembly, new housings, lightened / clearance rotors, race bearings, external oil feed modifications, etc the whole nine yards which hopefully should contribute to longevity.
Mainly because more power on less boost, means less stress into the engine, less high strung / risk, less chance of detonation, and cooler IAT's. I don't particularly see why people claim a P-port diminishes engine life and requires constant rebuilds. Its realistically only another 2k rpm, and more than likely won't even rev that high on usual basis. , a 13b N/A Pport or even n/a 4 rotor is going to spend a lot more time at high rpm, because no turbo etc, so much more wear.
This engine has balanced rotational assembly, new housings, lightened / clearance rotors, race bearings, external oil feed modifications, etc the whole nine yards which hopefully should contribute to longevity.
Do you have any insight as to the location of the port?
I've got a few people that are trying to sway me in the direction of another 20b (NA p port) in my 8.
04-12-16, 06:52 PM
#160
Hopefully. My renesis and 20b are getting balanced and lightened/scalloped as well with "reliability" mods/upgrades, but I heard the porting style specifically is the reason for premature engine failure. Due to the location of the port in the housing(s).
Do you have any insight as to the location of the port?
I've got a few people that are trying to sway me in the direction of another 20b (NA p port) in my 8.
Do you have any insight as to the location of the port?
I've got a few people that are trying to sway me in the direction of another 20b (NA p port) in my 8.
Im going to use Evans NGP at zero pressure to keep down stress on coolant system walls etc and completely eliminate localized hotspots and boiling
04-13-16, 04:03 PM
#161
Ok guys,
FInally Spoke with PPRE. All is fine, I trust them, he's legitimately maxed out and behind schedule it sounds like, especially with Formula D race season etc. Just going to continue to trust him for now and keep building.
Thanks guys
On a side note,
Anyone know of a pic or link to the Audi TT fuel door cover used on rx7? Its been done a few times according to this forum.
My fuel door doesn't open all the way with the shine fenders. Found out the hard way by chipping of a dime size of paint off the edge!! SHOOOT. So now need to repaint the whole fender and/or try to tape it off and give it a go with black rattle can and rattle can clear then try to wetsand blend it if possible lol
Surge tank is mounted and battery, isolator, and both fuse boxes are on the way. Electrical system should start coming together here shortly. Then fuel and oil. Then body panels, if the freakin' dude finished them by the end of this week!
FInally Spoke with PPRE. All is fine, I trust them, he's legitimately maxed out and behind schedule it sounds like, especially with Formula D race season etc. Just going to continue to trust him for now and keep building.
Thanks guys
On a side note,
Anyone know of a pic or link to the Audi TT fuel door cover used on rx7? Its been done a few times according to this forum.
My fuel door doesn't open all the way with the shine fenders. Found out the hard way by chipping of a dime size of paint off the edge!! SHOOOT. So now need to repaint the whole fender and/or try to tape it off and give it a go with black rattle can and rattle can clear then try to wetsand blend it if possible lol
Surge tank is mounted and battery, isolator, and both fuse boxes are on the way. Electrical system should start coming together here shortly. Then fuel and oil. Then body panels, if the freakin' dude finished them by the end of this week!
04-14-16, 08:03 PM
#162
You're 100% correct. I do think you have the record time on a proper 3rotor build though. Mine took about 3 years to get the car on the road and another 3 years making things reliable. Now I'm in "making things clean" stage. Many give up. Many run out of money. Many have kids, get married, and drop off the face of the planet.
I do enjoy driving the car more, but part of the fun is also making the car perfect. or maybe I'm forced to say it's fun because it's just f'ing depressing otherwise. Truth be told, take all the individual experiences alone: I hate being covered in oil, smelling like fuel, getting cut in every joint, sweating in garage in 120*F heat, and taking fiberglass off my skin with tape.
I do enjoy driving the car more, but part of the fun is also making the car perfect. or maybe I'm forced to say it's fun because it's just f'ing depressing otherwise. Truth be told, take all the individual experiences alone: I hate being covered in oil, smelling like fuel, getting cut in every joint, sweating in garage in 120*F heat, and taking fiberglass off my skin with tape.
Just want to clear something up and share a thought:
A lot of personal builds we see in the car world take long amounts of time. Some builds even lasting 10 years. In the case of 3 rotor cars, I used to read build threads on here and feel discouraged for years by the timelines it took people to complete these swaps. But its really just a difference in personality and preference.
It seems the vast majority of personal builders are doing it because they just like building. They like the time to think and tinker with the car. To spend time with their friends and family and then make a few hours here and there. Or maybe they are saving money to finance the build and spend it along the way. And I think because this is the most common style, we assume that everyone thinks this way. And there's nothing wrong with that, some amazing cars are built this way. Not rush, time spent in all avenues on the best parts.
A build to me may not seem that important to others, because I'm not a shop doing this work for a customer, I'm not developing new parts, nor am I a race team.
But when it comes down to it, my driving motivation is the sacrifice. I've saved since 2006 to do this build. Sold the last car to fund it, which took 10 years to reach. Sacrifice free time, family, friends, entirely to do things, because in my opinion, that's what it takes to get there. So to me, time is sacrifice. I look at a build this way, 700 hours, life is on pause until those have passed. The longer it takes to complete the goal, the more is sacrificed. The more life we can't get back.
The goal is not to build a 4 rotor. The goal is to drive the 4 rotor. And until that goal is met, life stops. Call me crazy, but this train isn't stopping until the job is done.
And so I don't think any of us should have to lower our expectations of ourselves and of others, for any reason.
A lot of personal builds we see in the car world take long amounts of time. Some builds even lasting 10 years. In the case of 3 rotor cars, I used to read build threads on here and feel discouraged for years by the timelines it took people to complete these swaps. But its really just a difference in personality and preference.
It seems the vast majority of personal builders are doing it because they just like building. They like the time to think and tinker with the car. To spend time with their friends and family and then make a few hours here and there. Or maybe they are saving money to finance the build and spend it along the way. And I think because this is the most common style, we assume that everyone thinks this way. And there's nothing wrong with that, some amazing cars are built this way. Not rush, time spent in all avenues on the best parts.
A build to me may not seem that important to others, because I'm not a shop doing this work for a customer, I'm not developing new parts, nor am I a race team.
But when it comes down to it, my driving motivation is the sacrifice. I've saved since 2006 to do this build. Sold the last car to fund it, which took 10 years to reach. Sacrifice free time, family, friends, entirely to do things, because in my opinion, that's what it takes to get there. So to me, time is sacrifice. I look at a build this way, 700 hours, life is on pause until those have passed. The longer it takes to complete the goal, the more is sacrificed. The more life we can't get back.
The goal is not to build a 4 rotor. The goal is to drive the 4 rotor. And until that goal is met, life stops. Call me crazy, but this train isn't stopping until the job is done.
And so I don't think any of us should have to lower our expectations of ourselves and of others, for any reason.
04-14-16, 11:15 PM
#163
You're 100% correct. I do think you have the record time on a proper 3rotor build though. Mine took about 3 years to get the car on the road and another 3 years making things reliable. Now I'm in "making things clean" stage. Many give up. Many run out of money. Many have kids, get married, and drop off the face of the planet.
I do enjoy driving the car more, but part of the fun is also making the car perfect. or maybe I'm forced to say it's fun because it's just f'ing depressing otherwise. Truth be told, take all the individual experiences alone: I hate being covered in oil, smelling like fuel, getting cut in every joint, sweating in garage in 120*F heat, and taking fiberglass off my skin with tape.
I do enjoy driving the car more, but part of the fun is also making the car perfect. or maybe I'm forced to say it's fun because it's just f'ing depressing otherwise. Truth be told, take all the individual experiences alone: I hate being covered in oil, smelling like fuel, getting cut in every joint, sweating in garage in 120*F heat, and taking fiberglass off my skin with tape.
Its a love/hate addiction with the rotary! But in the end, it's well worth the sacrifice.
There is absolutely nothing on planet earth comparable to the feeling of starting up and engine and driving around the block that you installed from the ground up!
And I appreciate all the conversations we've had over the phone. Hope you get that 20b up and running again soon.
04-14-16, 11:19 PM
#164
Update:
Still pushing.
- Fuse box 1 installed
- Trigger wires from dash panel to fuse box 1 installed and routed
- Power wires to headlights and horn installed and routed
- Defi Tach Installed
-Surge tank installed
-Water to Air cores and fans installed
-Water to Air water box and pump installed
Next up:
-Power wires from fuse box one to be installed, starter wire, blinkers, ignition power wire
-Install fuse box two and trigger wiring, along with fuel pump wires, fans, and all auxiliary circuits
Aiming for:
-Monday/Tuesday, test fit Body Panels
-Next weekend, finish buffing car
-Hardwire all of the lighting systems
-Loom all wiring and fasten
-Bleed Brakes
Week after:
-Oil Lines, Oil Coolers, Intercooler Lines, Battery/Box/Remote Solenoid
-Fuel Pump/Filter/Lines
Still pushing.
- Fuse box 1 installed
- Trigger wires from dash panel to fuse box 1 installed and routed
- Power wires to headlights and horn installed and routed
- Defi Tach Installed
-Surge tank installed
-Water to Air cores and fans installed
-Water to Air water box and pump installed
Next up:
-Power wires from fuse box one to be installed, starter wire, blinkers, ignition power wire
-Install fuse box two and trigger wiring, along with fuel pump wires, fans, and all auxiliary circuits
Aiming for:
-Monday/Tuesday, test fit Body Panels
-Next weekend, finish buffing car
-Hardwire all of the lighting systems
-Loom all wiring and fasten
-Bleed Brakes
Week after:
-Oil Lines, Oil Coolers, Intercooler Lines, Battery/Box/Remote Solenoid
-Fuel Pump/Filter/Lines
04-15-16, 02:43 AM
#165
Your an animal! Seriously awesome! I've been putting together a new 2 rotor and if I can sneak in the garage for 30 minutes late at night is a win. Super jealous at what your able to accomplish.
Love seeing updates so often. This is a real build thread. Honestly I'm not sure if I can follow another one after this one.
Love seeing updates so often. This is a real build thread. Honestly I'm not sure if I can follow another one after this one.
Update:
Still pushing.
- Fuse box 1 installed
- Trigger wires from dash panel to fuse box 1 installed and routed
- Power wires to headlights and horn installed and routed
- Defi Tach Installed
-Surge tank installed
-Water to Air cores and fans installed
-Water to Air water box and pump installed
Next up:
-Power wires from fuse box one to be installed, starter wire, blinkers, ignition power wire
-Install fuse box two and trigger wiring, along with fuel pump wires, fans, and all auxiliary circuits
Aiming for:
-Monday/Tuesday, test fit Body Panels
-Next weekend, finish buffing car
-Hardwire all of the lighting systems
-Loom all wiring and fasten
-Bleed Brakes
Week after:
-Oil Lines, Oil Coolers, Intercooler Lines, Battery/Box/Remote Solenoid
-Fuel Pump/Filter/Lines
Still pushing.
- Fuse box 1 installed
- Trigger wires from dash panel to fuse box 1 installed and routed
- Power wires to headlights and horn installed and routed
- Defi Tach Installed
-Surge tank installed
-Water to Air cores and fans installed
-Water to Air water box and pump installed
Next up:
-Power wires from fuse box one to be installed, starter wire, blinkers, ignition power wire
-Install fuse box two and trigger wiring, along with fuel pump wires, fans, and all auxiliary circuits
Aiming for:
-Monday/Tuesday, test fit Body Panels
-Next weekend, finish buffing car
-Hardwire all of the lighting systems
-Loom all wiring and fasten
-Bleed Brakes
Week after:
-Oil Lines, Oil Coolers, Intercooler Lines, Battery/Box/Remote Solenoid
-Fuel Pump/Filter/Lines
04-15-16, 11:10 AM
#166
Ok, so basically I'm going to keep my f*cking mouth shut because PPRE has actually been killing it!!!!!!!!!
Just got paranoid for no reason. If the work comes out looking this great, its well worth wait.
A little assurance goes A LONG WAY for motivation. Time to get serious!
This is a pic of the water intercooler plenum taking shape.
F*CK YES FINALLY.
Ok guys, beast mode engaged. My next update I better be back with ****.
Last edited by Monsterbox; 04-15-16 at 11:15 AM.
04-15-16, 02:29 PM
#169
I'd say the earth lead is on a runner down rear. I don't no anyone who would earth there work through the weld table.
I see this Instagram post and new straight away it was yours. looking very cool... pun intended.
I see this Instagram post and new straight away it was yours. looking very cool... pun intended.
04-15-16, 08:37 PM
#170
The idea of putting the water intercooler inside the plenum seems genius because not only does the charge air naturaly cool before getting to the plentum, the plumbing can be made much shorter for less lag plus, the cooled charge is at its coolest before entering the runners. Seems to be the ideal way to do a water to air set-up.
Last edited by t-von; 04-15-16 at 08:39 PM.
04-16-16, 04:59 AM
#171
4:55am
-yellow top battery installed and battery tray
-1/0 gauge positive and negatives installed
-200amp inline fuse on positive
-InstallBay 500amp isolator on positive in trunk installed
-trigger wire to isolator from dash kill switch
-dash power, gauges, and tach powered
-dash grounds both sides installed, and fuse box 1 powered
-10 gauge power and ground to each headlight, lo beam and hi beam powered
-horn powered
All is working perfectly!
The only annoyance is trying to twist wires for such a long distance around each other.
I'm doing one circuit through the car, take it out and twist the next circuits wire around it to build the harness.
Tomorrow is signals and driving lights
When fuse Box 2 arrives, fuel, ignition, fans etc power will be wired
-yellow top battery installed and battery tray
-1/0 gauge positive and negatives installed
-200amp inline fuse on positive
-InstallBay 500amp isolator on positive in trunk installed
-trigger wire to isolator from dash kill switch
-dash power, gauges, and tach powered
-dash grounds both sides installed, and fuse box 1 powered
-10 gauge power and ground to each headlight, lo beam and hi beam powered
-horn powered
All is working perfectly!
The only annoyance is trying to twist wires for such a long distance around each other.
I'm doing one circuit through the car, take it out and twist the next circuits wire around it to build the harness.
Tomorrow is signals and driving lights
When fuse Box 2 arrives, fuel, ignition, fans etc power will be wired
04-17-16, 01:28 PM
#174
Just ordered 120 feet of nylon braided loom. You guys are gonna love this insanity haha I recommend it to anyone who has some time and hates mazda electrical issues. But, damn it would suck if this car had windows, locks, antenna, radio, etc. 
Fuse boxes in the trunk sounded great until the realization that theres huge distance to run, and many obstacles to sneak around. But after embarking, wouldn't do this any other way in the future.
So, like all that OEM mess of fan relays, re tractor relays, headlamp relays, battery, starter, alternator etc wiring all inside the engine bay. NO WHERE TO BE FOUND!
Basically works like this:
1. The left side dash insert has 8-conductor wire coming off the back, same with right, each wire connects to each switch, the grounds for the switches all combine into one solitary ground wire which travels back to the battery.
2. The 8-conductor wire (with small 30 gauge wires) is sooo tiny. Runs back, tucked along the driverside floor, to the fuse box in the trunk, where it opens up, with 1 wire to each relay in the box.
3. Flipping switch on the dash, grounds a relay, and sends power via a seperate loom of wire(s) to the device.
4. Another 8 conductor, duplicate, runs in parallel, from the same relay triggers at fuse box, to the ECU. This way the ECU can auto-trigger each relay. The dash is now just for overrides or manual necessities.
5. (In progress), each switch on dash has an LED indicator. Another 8 conductor wire (when i get the engergy to do this) will connect to each LED input on each dash switch. The other end of the wire will wire-tap onto the power output wires, headed to the devices, out of the fuse box power loom. This way, whether the switch is in the down or up position (manual ovveride or ECU controlled), anytime the relay is triggered, the switch will light up to show activation. Unnecessary for all circuits, but will use this for Lift Pump, Surge Pump, EWP, and Rad Fans. This way, we can see if a pump looses power or blows a fuse. We can also see when radiator fans are activated on/off cycling, as all of this will normally be controlled by ECU.
6. Traditional battery kill switch is mounted on the dash, but having learned from the last car, it sucks to have huge 2x 0g wires running to and from a stupid switch on a switch panel. So, a big *** solenoid is mounted in the trunk, prebattery, which is simply grounded by the kill switch via a 30ga hair wire. Now there are zero power wires running through the dash, besides the turn signal circuit.
Scary and initially regrettable at first, from having cut out the entire chassis harness with clippers. But at this point, its SO MUCH NICER to know everything is centralized and in your own control
Time to keep pushing until all circuits are complete!
Fuse boxes in the trunk sounded great until the realization that theres huge distance to run, and many obstacles to sneak around. But after embarking, wouldn't do this any other way in the future.
So, like all that OEM mess of fan relays, re tractor relays, headlamp relays, battery, starter, alternator etc wiring all inside the engine bay. NO WHERE TO BE FOUND!
Basically works like this:
1. The left side dash insert has 8-conductor wire coming off the back, same with right, each wire connects to each switch, the grounds for the switches all combine into one solitary ground wire which travels back to the battery.
2. The 8-conductor wire (with small 30 gauge wires) is sooo tiny. Runs back, tucked along the driverside floor, to the fuse box in the trunk, where it opens up, with 1 wire to each relay in the box.
3. Flipping switch on the dash, grounds a relay, and sends power via a seperate loom of wire(s) to the device.
4. Another 8 conductor, duplicate, runs in parallel, from the same relay triggers at fuse box, to the ECU. This way the ECU can auto-trigger each relay. The dash is now just for overrides or manual necessities.
5. (In progress), each switch on dash has an LED indicator. Another 8 conductor wire (when i get the engergy to do this) will connect to each LED input on each dash switch. The other end of the wire will wire-tap onto the power output wires, headed to the devices, out of the fuse box power loom. This way, whether the switch is in the down or up position (manual ovveride or ECU controlled), anytime the relay is triggered, the switch will light up to show activation. Unnecessary for all circuits, but will use this for Lift Pump, Surge Pump, EWP, and Rad Fans. This way, we can see if a pump looses power or blows a fuse. We can also see when radiator fans are activated on/off cycling, as all of this will normally be controlled by ECU.
6. Traditional battery kill switch is mounted on the dash, but having learned from the last car, it sucks to have huge 2x 0g wires running to and from a stupid switch on a switch panel. So, a big *** solenoid is mounted in the trunk, prebattery, which is simply grounded by the kill switch via a 30ga hair wire. Now there are zero power wires running through the dash, besides the turn signal circuit.
Scary and initially regrettable at first, from having cut out the entire chassis harness with clippers. But at this point, its SO MUCH NICER to know everything is centralized and in your own control
Time to keep pushing until all circuits are complete!
Last edited by Monsterbox; 04-17-16 at 01:39 PM.
04-17-16, 02:02 PM
#175
Mines all in the rear too. If you don't have all the junk under the dash (heater, A/C, etc...) another good option is to put all fuse boxes there (in an accessible manner of course) and then a single power and ground back to the battery. This makes the runs much shorter.
Doesn't really matter all that much, just another option. I have heard that the signals to the coils should be as short as possible though.
Doesn't really matter all that much, just another option. I have heard that the signals to the coils should be as short as possible though.