Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
02-21-14, 04:37 PM
#4002
^ The fender liners are not installed yet but will be soon. The body shop is making some braces for the inside of the Shine fenders that will be epoxied (I think) to the fenders. The liners will then attach to this.
I will be sure to have some pics taken of this. Talked with the body shop guys in some detail when they did the paint job.
I will be sure to have some pics taken of this. Talked with the body shop guys in some detail when they did the paint job.
02-21-14, 10:29 PM
#4003
Twin Turbo LSX
I finally removed the remaining harness for Dean's RaceLogic traction control system if your interested! It's up for sale
03-15-14, 11:23 PM
#4006
^ To be fair to djseven, none of the N/A 20B swaps have really shown any proof of concept. Logan's is the only exception to this and it wasnt exactly in a street car to get a good comparison. All that has happened is a few of us going "Its going to be awesome!!" for the past 3 years with not much to show. Hopefully thatll change this year, I know you said yours is about complete.. fingers crossed mine will be up and running here very shortly and then wherever Gordon disappeared to hopefully his will be up as well. Until then you cant really blame people for being a bit cynical..
03-15-14, 11:33 PM
#4007
n/a is easy mode, you guys need to get er done and stop whining about other people's comments and just spend more time under your hood and finish. I built my turbo 20b in 6 weeks start to finish ffs. I'm already bored and want to move onto a 4 rotor turbo but no monies haha. Need to sell my 20b first (shameless plug lol).
thewird
thewird
03-19-14, 08:32 AM
#4014
Wastegate John
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How could you miss where I said it was a hack job due to budget? You just couldn't pass up the chance to try to knock someone down with that critical mind of yours could you? You got two choices when your building something no one else is building. You can "A" spend alot of money on all this expensive inconel and tig machines on a experimental exhaust that may never work. Or "B" you go the cheapest safest route just to get an idea if the design is plausible. What you see practically cost me nothing to build but, workes exactly how I designed it to. So I'm very happy with it for now until I build the final version out of much better materials and better technique.
I understand you are experimenting and experimentation costs money so you are keeping cost down by using used materials.
But what I am referring to with "masterful engineering" Is the use of a right angle "t" fitting in an exhaust system. In every version of your midpipe you keep that design element. Obviously you do not need too much knowledge on fluid dynamics to know that is a terrible design yet you used it in all three of your iterations.
Makes me doubtful of all of the other "claims" you make. With nothing to show but parts like that it does not add to your credibility, maybe once you apply for a patent on your revolutionary intake system you will show us what you are doing and prove me wrong but I am doubtful.
Your methods you used to make that pipe are questionable. Why is the exhaust so dirty wouldn't you clean it before you weld it in order to make a clean strong weld? It is details like that that make my "critical" mind come to the reasoning I have concluded.
03-20-14, 03:53 PM
#4015
Hate to take way all the focus from N/A 3rotors versus 13Bs (I kid, I kid 
) but how about some turbo talk?
First, many thanks to the guys at Borg Warner for their support and assistance. They rock and I couldn't have asked for a better partner as they are super responsive and very knowledgable. Much thanks also to Mike Franke at Southeast Power Systems, a Borg Warner “Franchise Distributor” as well as a “Tier 1 Performance Distributor”, one of only two distributors to carry that dual-status. SE Power serves as primary support for Borg Warner, since the company does not sell directly to the public. Mike has worked very hard for me over the last 30 days and has gone well above what one would expect. In fact, he's freakishly fast and good at what he does. Finally, a word of thanks to Marco (thewird) on this forum for his expertise and assistance. I'm still new to turbo stuff, but have learned a lot with your help.
As I posted several weeks ago, Borg Warner sent me (to Kilo Racing) one of their EFR 9180 turbos. Beautiful unit, very well designed and made. Lot's of bells and whistles and features that simplify a turbo installation. A great fit and value for a 2 rotor application. A pic of the unit (yes, we know a socket is in the intake):
After seeing the turbo, and comparing it to the old Precision GTS 78mm unit it was to replace:
We decided to readdress which of the Borg Warner turbos would provide optimal airflow and performance for a 3 rotor. Enter in the assistance of the Borg Warner application specialists, Mike Franke, and a good bit of help from Marco. Our conclusion after this re-evaluation was the EFR 9180 would work but we would be better served by moving to one of the larger Borg Warner AirWerks turbos. Here is a link to info on the AirWerks series:
Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems
I'll post up later the "match" information we used to determine which AirWerks turbo would be the best fit for the car, but we ultimately decided the BG S400SX3-74, or part number 177101, would be the best fit for the car to maximize response as well as provide the WHP levels and boost level desired. The S400SX4 is very customizable with a number of turbine wheel configurations and AR sizes available. So, we switched gears and focused on the BG S400SX3.
As the turbo is quite a bit larger than the BG EFR 9180 and even larger than the old Precision GTS turbo, we had a question concerning if the unit would fit. So, Borg Warner and Mike Franke sent over a mock up unit to test fit. Good news, it fits! Here are pics of the test fit. Note the LIM is also test fitted on the car temporarily so don't freak about the "open" intakes. Also, the mocked up unit is smaller on the inducer side than the actual unit will be but the outside dimensions match the unit that is being assembled:
Kilo is going to try to lower the turbo manifold flange by a few inches as he believes the turbo will fit better that way with the v-mount setup being fabricated but we are leaving that up to him.
Fabrication on the actual working turbo unit for the car is about complete and the new turbo will be to Kilo by early next week. Borg Warner and SE Power have also graciously had a thermal coating partner apply to the bearing housing a 2,000deg flat-black thermal dispersant coating, a flat-black ceramic coating to the turbine housing, and a black thermal dispersant to the compressor cover. Will post more on the use of "thermal dispersants" versus ceramic coatings and the best use of them on various turbo components.
Finally, Borg Warner and SE Power are also providing 3 different AR housing sizes to test on the car, a 0.90 AR, a 1.0 AR, and a 1.10 AR. Haltech has sent over a stainless 3 bar MAP (pressure) sensor for us to "plumb" into the header pre-wastegate so we can data log turbo back pressure for each AR size versus spool up and performance to best fine tune/match the turbo to the car. One of the benefits of the Aiiwerks series of turbos is the number of options offered in ARs so customers can start at one level of performance and move up if needed.
That's it for now. More to come.
) but how about some turbo talk?First, many thanks to the guys at Borg Warner for their support and assistance. They rock and I couldn't have asked for a better partner as they are super responsive and very knowledgable. Much thanks also to Mike Franke at Southeast Power Systems, a Borg Warner “Franchise Distributor” as well as a “Tier 1 Performance Distributor”, one of only two distributors to carry that dual-status. SE Power serves as primary support for Borg Warner, since the company does not sell directly to the public. Mike has worked very hard for me over the last 30 days and has gone well above what one would expect. In fact, he's freakishly fast and good at what he does. Finally, a word of thanks to Marco (thewird) on this forum for his expertise and assistance. I'm still new to turbo stuff, but have learned a lot with your help.
As I posted several weeks ago, Borg Warner sent me (to Kilo Racing) one of their EFR 9180 turbos. Beautiful unit, very well designed and made. Lot's of bells and whistles and features that simplify a turbo installation. A great fit and value for a 2 rotor application. A pic of the unit (yes, we know a socket is in the intake):
After seeing the turbo, and comparing it to the old Precision GTS 78mm unit it was to replace:
We decided to readdress which of the Borg Warner turbos would provide optimal airflow and performance for a 3 rotor. Enter in the assistance of the Borg Warner application specialists, Mike Franke, and a good bit of help from Marco. Our conclusion after this re-evaluation was the EFR 9180 would work but we would be better served by moving to one of the larger Borg Warner AirWerks turbos. Here is a link to info on the AirWerks series:
Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems
I'll post up later the "match" information we used to determine which AirWerks turbo would be the best fit for the car, but we ultimately decided the BG S400SX3-74, or part number 177101, would be the best fit for the car to maximize response as well as provide the WHP levels and boost level desired. The S400SX4 is very customizable with a number of turbine wheel configurations and AR sizes available. So, we switched gears and focused on the BG S400SX3.
As the turbo is quite a bit larger than the BG EFR 9180 and even larger than the old Precision GTS turbo, we had a question concerning if the unit would fit. So, Borg Warner and Mike Franke sent over a mock up unit to test fit. Good news, it fits! Here are pics of the test fit. Note the LIM is also test fitted on the car temporarily so don't freak about the "open" intakes. Also, the mocked up unit is smaller on the inducer side than the actual unit will be but the outside dimensions match the unit that is being assembled:
Kilo is going to try to lower the turbo manifold flange by a few inches as he believes the turbo will fit better that way with the v-mount setup being fabricated but we are leaving that up to him.
Fabrication on the actual working turbo unit for the car is about complete and the new turbo will be to Kilo by early next week. Borg Warner and SE Power have also graciously had a thermal coating partner apply to the bearing housing a 2,000deg flat-black thermal dispersant coating, a flat-black ceramic coating to the turbine housing, and a black thermal dispersant to the compressor cover. Will post more on the use of "thermal dispersants" versus ceramic coatings and the best use of them on various turbo components.
Finally, Borg Warner and SE Power are also providing 3 different AR housing sizes to test on the car, a 0.90 AR, a 1.0 AR, and a 1.10 AR. Haltech has sent over a stainless 3 bar MAP (pressure) sensor for us to "plumb" into the header pre-wastegate so we can data log turbo back pressure for each AR size versus spool up and performance to best fine tune/match the turbo to the car. One of the benefits of the Aiiwerks series of turbos is the number of options offered in ARs so customers can start at one level of performance and move up if needed.
That's it for now. More to come.
03-20-14, 05:14 PM
#4017
^Too funny. 20 year old car means I don't have to worry about that in NC. Going to transfer the car up here soon.
However, I did buy a while ago a 100 cell high flow cat that we are going to install to try to cut down on some of that awesome rotary exhaust fume smell. You may recall I tried this about a two years or so ago and we failed miserably so we will see how it goes this time.
However, I did buy a while ago a 100 cell high flow cat that we are going to install to try to cut down on some of that awesome rotary exhaust fume smell. You may recall I tried this about a two years or so ago and we failed miserably so we will see how it goes this time.
03-20-14, 05:37 PM
#4018
^Too funny. 20 year old car means I don't have to worry about that in NC. Going to transfer the car up here soon.
However, I did buy a while ago a 100 cell high flow cat that we are going to install to try to cut down on some of that awesome rotary exhaust fume smell. You may recall I tried this about a two years or so ago and we failed miserably so we will see how it goes this time.
However, I did buy a while ago a 100 cell high flow cat that we are going to install to try to cut down on some of that awesome rotary exhaust fume smell. You may recall I tried this about a two years or so ago and we failed miserably so we will see how it goes this time.
david, what happened with the cat install last time?
i am curious because i just got a 3" cat (non-hiflow) and i'm wondering if i'm going to melt it driving around town.
i got it for the same reason: i need to drive the car without smelling like a weedeater.
03-20-14, 06:11 PM
#4019
Wait a second…… Why are you getting rid of the super awesome EFR turbo??
When you originally posted about it you were persistent that the 9180 was the correct turbo for you. You even went as far as to say they it was spec'd out by "several turbo specialists" and even the "person who designs the EFR line". Seeing as you mentioned that BW has experience in rotary flow rates why would you doubt them? I don't know about the turbo specialists, but the person who designs the EFR line seems like a pretty credible source.
When you originally posted about it you were persistent that the 9180 was the correct turbo for you. You even went as far as to say they it was spec'd out by "several turbo specialists" and even the "person who designs the EFR line". Seeing as you mentioned that BW has experience in rotary flow rates why would you doubt them? I don't know about the turbo specialists, but the person who designs the EFR line seems like a pretty credible source.
Marco, I'm no turbo expert for sure, but I've had this spec'd out by several turbo specialists, including the person who designs the EFR line at Borg Warner. As an aside, Borg Warner has a rotary race team so they have some knowledge of rotary flow rates. Anyway, there are two versions of the 9180, one with a T3 frame, .83 A/R, and internal waste gates and the one I got, the one with a T4 frame, 1.05 A/R, and an external waste gate. The general consensus agrees with you on the T3 frame model, that it will not flow near enough for a ported 20B and the best I would see would be around 550 WHP at 20 PSI. However, it is felt the T4 frame unit will work well and achieve the levels of HP I'd like to make. We shall see I guess and I'll certainly post the results. Heck, you know how it is with the 20B, I'd be very happy to be in the 550 - 600 WHP range with great spool up as that's about all the car I can handle anyway. I've never yet tracked the car at the high boost setting. Want a nice dyno sheet though for bragging rights For comparison, my Precision unit was a T78 bb with a 1.05 A/R.
For comparison, my Precision unit was a T78 bb with a 1.05 A/R.
03-20-14, 07:36 PM
#4020
I'm going to guess more info was provided and he made the switch based on the info that suggested the new route would be better. People change their minds all the time when they explore their options, and that's ok. ****, I don't care if he goes and puts an old T88 on that thing, why does anyone care if he changed his mind.
03-21-14, 07:42 AM
#4023
Thanks for the comments guys.
The Borg Warner EFR series are beautiful turbos and they come decked out with everything and more than a person would want. From the low inertia Gamma-Ti turbine wheel and ceramic ball bearings for ultra-quick response, to the incorporation of internal waste gates, and to a built in blow off valve, the EFR line is a great choice for the majority of guys on this forum. You get great performance and excellent value. This is what attracted me to the EFR line.
As a newbie to turbos, I went into this asking which EFR turbo would be best for my car. And the definitive answer to that is the EFR 9180. The swap to the Airwerks S400SX3 is really just as simple as turbine flow at desired power levels being right at the limit of the EFR9180.
Borg Warner has developed a really cool tool called MatchBot (Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems). It is an interactive turbo matching program that allows for you to match your car and needs to the best turbo for your application. For my car, here is a compressor map for the EFR 9180:
When the turbo arrived at Kilo and we assessed the size of it (see previous pics), Borg Warner and SE Power were gracious enough to go through the process of selection again based on the new question of "which Borg Warner turbo would be the best fit for the car?" The answer to that is the S400SX3.
Here is a compressor map of my car and the S400SX3:
The S400SX3 shifts the data points to the left and is a better fit.
Finally, the team also assessed turbine flow rates to select the best turbine wheel size. Here is a chart of that data:
From a flow rate, the EFR 9180 with the 1.05 AR is a great fit but so is the S400SX3 with a 74mm wheel and .90 AR. The 1.0 AR is also good. There are other factors to consider such as inertia of the different types of wheels but that is for another conversation.
The cool thing about the turbine sizing selector tool is you can see the impact of going with increasingly larger turbos. This will help you avoid oversizing your turbo and ending up with something that will not work well for your car. For example, let's say I thought an 87mm wheel and a 1.25 AR would be best, I can look on the chart and see that size combo is well above my target flow points. So, that configuration would work but wouldn't be a good match for the car as spool up would suffer. This is how we ended up where we are with the S400SX3.
Posted all of this up as I learned a lot during the process and thought those of you that are not turbo experts like me would appreciate the information. In short, a lot of us might go into selecting a turbo thinking the bigger the better and that is not the case. Match the turbo to your application and you will be happier with the results.
Regarding oil cooling, yes the S400SX3 is oil cooled and not also water cooled like the EFR line. Borg Warner has achieved durability with this design and it might be a benefit to me with engine temps as I won't have hot turbo coolant flushing back into my cooling system.
Finally, we are not shooting for 1,000+ HP on the car. Depending on the AR and wheel configuration, you could hit that on this turbo, but I have opted for a smaller wheel and AR sizing for quicker spool up. That will limit my upper end but we will find out how much when we test the different AR. As I posted earlier, we will also test turbo back pressure for the different configurations to see the impact of the ARs on that.
The Borg Warner EFR series are beautiful turbos and they come decked out with everything and more than a person would want. From the low inertia Gamma-Ti turbine wheel and ceramic ball bearings for ultra-quick response, to the incorporation of internal waste gates, and to a built in blow off valve, the EFR line is a great choice for the majority of guys on this forum. You get great performance and excellent value. This is what attracted me to the EFR line.
As a newbie to turbos, I went into this asking which EFR turbo would be best for my car. And the definitive answer to that is the EFR 9180. The swap to the Airwerks S400SX3 is really just as simple as turbine flow at desired power levels being right at the limit of the EFR9180.
Borg Warner has developed a really cool tool called MatchBot (Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems). It is an interactive turbo matching program that allows for you to match your car and needs to the best turbo for your application. For my car, here is a compressor map for the EFR 9180:
When the turbo arrived at Kilo and we assessed the size of it (see previous pics), Borg Warner and SE Power were gracious enough to go through the process of selection again based on the new question of "which Borg Warner turbo would be the best fit for the car?" The answer to that is the S400SX3.
Here is a compressor map of my car and the S400SX3:
The S400SX3 shifts the data points to the left and is a better fit.
Finally, the team also assessed turbine flow rates to select the best turbine wheel size. Here is a chart of that data:
From a flow rate, the EFR 9180 with the 1.05 AR is a great fit but so is the S400SX3 with a 74mm wheel and .90 AR. The 1.0 AR is also good. There are other factors to consider such as inertia of the different types of wheels but that is for another conversation.
The cool thing about the turbine sizing selector tool is you can see the impact of going with increasingly larger turbos. This will help you avoid oversizing your turbo and ending up with something that will not work well for your car. For example, let's say I thought an 87mm wheel and a 1.25 AR would be best, I can look on the chart and see that size combo is well above my target flow points. So, that configuration would work but wouldn't be a good match for the car as spool up would suffer. This is how we ended up where we are with the S400SX3.
Posted all of this up as I learned a lot during the process and thought those of you that are not turbo experts like me would appreciate the information. In short, a lot of us might go into selecting a turbo thinking the bigger the better and that is not the case. Match the turbo to your application and you will be happier with the results.
Regarding oil cooling, yes the S400SX3 is oil cooled and not also water cooled like the EFR line. Borg Warner has achieved durability with this design and it might be a benefit to me with engine temps as I won't have hot turbo coolant flushing back into my cooling system.
Finally, we are not shooting for 1,000+ HP on the car. Depending on the AR and wheel configuration, you could hit that on this turbo, but I have opted for a smaller wheel and AR sizing for quicker spool up. That will limit my upper end but we will find out how much when we test the different AR. As I posted earlier, we will also test turbo back pressure for the different configurations to see the impact of the ARs on that.
03-21-14, 07:49 AM
#4024
Tryinn again with a 100 cell cat. Hopefully flow will be okay and I'll take some of the stink out of the "weedeater"
