Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
03-29-14, 09:58 PM
#4052
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Hey David
I read the explanation on the different coatings... I just wanted to know if the coatings that come on the hot side of a reputable turbo manufacturer is it as good as what you have applied, or your coating uses a different type of material or coating technique that further reduces heat dispersion in your engine bay?
The turbo will look realy good in your engine bay!
Thanks for the reply!
I read the explanation on the different coatings... I just wanted to know if the coatings that come on the hot side of a reputable turbo manufacturer is it as good as what you have applied, or your coating uses a different type of material or coating technique that further reduces heat dispersion in your engine bay?
The turbo will look realy good in your engine bay!
Thanks for the reply!
03-30-14, 08:46 AM
#4053
^ Hi Andrew. Hope you guys are doing well. Coming down for Deals Gap this year? Would be great to see you.
Regarding coatings, I think turbo manufacturers probably use the same coatings as what I used. Most everyone uses Techline ceramic coatings (Welcome to Techline Coatings) so I would believe what a turbo manufacturer would offer would be like what was applied for me as this is what Borg Warner did on mine (or at least SE Power Systems).
The key is to use the right type of coating for the different parts of the turbo. Use a thermal "Barrier" for the hot side coating to keep the heat in and then use a dispersant on the front cover and the bearing housing to remove heat. Most guys don't even do the bearing housing but they should. They also usually powder coat the front cover and this gives the opposite effect than what you want, or it holds the heat in. So, don't powder coat, use a thermal dispersant instead for better results. The cost to powder coat is about the same as the thermal coating so you might as well use the thermal product as you get the same look and better results.
Hope this helps.
Regarding coatings, I think turbo manufacturers probably use the same coatings as what I used. Most everyone uses Techline ceramic coatings (Welcome to Techline Coatings) so I would believe what a turbo manufacturer would offer would be like what was applied for me as this is what Borg Warner did on mine (or at least SE Power Systems).
The key is to use the right type of coating for the different parts of the turbo. Use a thermal "Barrier" for the hot side coating to keep the heat in and then use a dispersant on the front cover and the bearing housing to remove heat. Most guys don't even do the bearing housing but they should. They also usually powder coat the front cover and this gives the opposite effect than what you want, or it holds the heat in. So, don't powder coat, use a thermal dispersant instead for better results. The cost to powder coat is about the same as the thermal coating so you might as well use the thermal product as you get the same look and better results.
Hope this helps.
03-30-14, 01:10 PM
#4054
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Yes the info helps greatly! Thank you!
I don't think I will make it to deals gap... The are more car parts of my car uninstalled than installed... It basically has the interior... That's it... It would have been very nice indeed to catch up.
I actually sent my exaust manifold and downpipe to SWAIN for ceramic coating (called withe lightning) supposedly it is the best thing out there since sliced bread (don't they all say that :-)) but they have been in the business of coating for a very long time... But maybe you already looked them up...
I am curious to see how the V-mount is done since that is probably going to be my project for next winter!
I don't think I will make it to deals gap... The are more car parts of my car uninstalled than installed... It basically has the interior... That's it... It would have been very nice indeed to catch up.
I actually sent my exaust manifold and downpipe to SWAIN for ceramic coating (called withe lightning) supposedly it is the best thing out there since sliced bread (don't they all say that :-)) but they have been in the business of coating for a very long time... But maybe you already looked them up...
I am curious to see how the V-mount is done since that is probably going to be my project for next winter!
03-30-14, 03:36 PM
#4055
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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We've had zero luck with Swain and White Lightning on two different single turbo 13B-REW FDs, in both cases the coating failed while still on engine break in and off boost, it balled up into little beads and turned from white to a greyish color, it basically came right off. This was on the tubular exhaust manifold. We've since chosen to stick with our tried and true coater that provides the 3600 degree cerama black coating.
Never did contact Swain, just decided not to use the coating any more. I believe I have pics somewhere of the failure.
Never did contact Swain, just decided not to use the coating any more. I believe I have pics somewhere of the failure.
03-30-14, 03:48 PM
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That's great! :-(
Thank you Rich for the insight, well my coating is already done and being shipped to me as we speak, if it fails I will contact you to to get them redone. I will try to run the down pipe without a thermal rap and see how quickly it degrades.
Thank you Rich for the insight, well my coating is already done and being shipped to me as we speak, if it fails I will contact you to to get them redone. I will try to run the down pipe without a thermal rap and see how quickly it degrades.
03-31-14, 05:13 AM
#4057
^ There you go. The reviews on Sawin seem to be good so hopefully it will last for you. Based on Rich's comment though, keep an eye on it.
Here is a summary chart of the recommendations for various parts of the car and the use of thermal barriers versus dispersants:
Engine Armor Automotive Performance Coatings | Applications
I just had my upper intake powder coated before I learned this stuff so I will probably live with that for now. Seriously thinking of getting the new v-mount setup, including the radiator, intercooler, and piping all done in a black dispersant.
Here is a summary chart of the recommendations for various parts of the car and the use of thermal barriers versus dispersants:
Engine Armor Automotive Performance Coatings | Applications
I just had my upper intake powder coated before I learned this stuff so I will probably live with that for now. Seriously thinking of getting the new v-mount setup, including the radiator, intercooler, and piping all done in a black dispersant.
04-01-14, 08:26 PM
#4060
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David if this statement is true why did you coat the turbo? Im a little confused on these coatings as i never have heard of a ceramic coating that disperses the heat as they claim they do. I am very suspicious that you could increase the thermal conductivity of aluminum by 20% by simply adding a ceramic based sprayed on coating. After looking at their website and reading over their explanation i am not convinced and also not impressed by them. It would be really interesting to see if you can clear this all up and possibly explain better how this is supposed to work.
04-02-14, 05:15 AM
#4062
David if this statement is true why did you coat the turbo? Im a little confused on these coatings as i never have heard of a ceramic coating that disperses the heat as they claim they do. I am very suspicious that you could increase the thermal conductivity of aluminum by 20% by simply adding a ceramic based sprayed on coating. After looking at their website and reading over their explanation i am not convinced and also not impressed by them. It would be really interesting to see if you can clear this all up and possibly explain better how this is supposed to work.
First, I didn't have the turbo coated, Borg Warner and SE Power Systems did. During the swap from the EFR unit to the Airwerks S400SX, I asked about having the turbo ceramic coated. When I asked, I did not even know there were differences in barrier and dispersant coatings. Thought all coatings acted as a thermal barrier. Mike Franke at SE Power Systems was gracious enough to explain the options to me and I went with what they suggested and posted up the info for you guys as I thought you'd like to know about the different products that are out there and how to best use them.
My comment about turbo manufacturers using coatings like mine is based on my experience. As Borg Warner, or at least SE Power Systems, uses Techline coatings applied from Engine Armor, my assumption is the turbo manufacturers don't do their own coatings but they send them out for the work or at minimum, they use coatings supplied by one of the coating manufacturers like Techline.
Let me see what I can find out for you. For me, the opinion of the turbo experts at SE Power Systems mattered as they have way more experience with this stuff than I do, so that is how I went. I did also spend a bit of time on the phone with Scott from Engine Armor in Tampa FL and he confirmed the use of dispersants as something that will benefit all of us.
Thanks! That was the name of the stuff I had read about a while back but just couldn't recall or find.
04-02-14, 12:57 PM
#4063
Okay, to follow up on the above, I spoke with the Tech Line Coatings (Welcome to Techline Coatings) group. They are the makers of both ceramic thermal barrier and dispersant products.
First, Tech Line states they are suppliers to over 95% of the automotive market, from OEM and aftermarket uses. They are also the primary supplier to several prominent NASCAR and NHRA teams and these groups all use the dispersant coatings. So, like I thought, the vast chances are, if someone is applying a ceramic coating product, it's from Tech Line.
Tech Line is the leader in both ceramic heat "barrier" and "dispersant" coatings and they indicate they sell a bunch of both. They also state these ceramic coatings are two very different products, where the chemical makeup of each is designed to either hold heat in (barrier) or to radiate heat out (dispersant).
For the dispersant coatings, the product line is called "TLTD". The chemical makeup of the product is designed to draw heat away from metal and to also evenly spread heat out. This is done by applying a coating that does not fill in the porosity of the surface area that it is coating, or it doesn't reduce the surface area that needs to be cooled. Thermal dispersant also occurs though the use of ingredients that promote the transfer of heat. Finally, black pigment is used to take advantage of the "black body radiation theory" and the coating also rejects oil, dirt, and grime, all of which trap heat.
The end result is a coating that does quite a bit to reduce heat. The numbers are actually larger than what I thought, as the reductions in heat versus bare metal are between 20-30%. For illustration, I've included one data sheet that details the reductions achieved in temps on an alternator. You can also find more details about the product in the sheet.
[imghttps://www.rx7club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=528588&stc=1&d=1396461 402[/img]
Hope this helps. I'm going to go the route of ceramic dispersant coating my v-mount setup including piping so I will post up how that works out.
First, Tech Line states they are suppliers to over 95% of the automotive market, from OEM and aftermarket uses. They are also the primary supplier to several prominent NASCAR and NHRA teams and these groups all use the dispersant coatings. So, like I thought, the vast chances are, if someone is applying a ceramic coating product, it's from Tech Line.
Tech Line is the leader in both ceramic heat "barrier" and "dispersant" coatings and they indicate they sell a bunch of both. They also state these ceramic coatings are two very different products, where the chemical makeup of each is designed to either hold heat in (barrier) or to radiate heat out (dispersant).
For the dispersant coatings, the product line is called "TLTD". The chemical makeup of the product is designed to draw heat away from metal and to also evenly spread heat out. This is done by applying a coating that does not fill in the porosity of the surface area that it is coating, or it doesn't reduce the surface area that needs to be cooled. Thermal dispersant also occurs though the use of ingredients that promote the transfer of heat. Finally, black pigment is used to take advantage of the "black body radiation theory" and the coating also rejects oil, dirt, and grime, all of which trap heat.
The end result is a coating that does quite a bit to reduce heat. The numbers are actually larger than what I thought, as the reductions in heat versus bare metal are between 20-30%. For illustration, I've included one data sheet that details the reductions achieved in temps on an alternator. You can also find more details about the product in the sheet.
[imghttps://www.rx7club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=528588&stc=1&d=1396461 402[/img]
Hope this helps. I'm going to go the route of ceramic dispersant coating my v-mount setup including piping so I will post up how that works out.
04-02-14, 03:08 PM
#4064
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Originally Posted by This is done by applying a coating that does not fill in the porosity of the surface area that it is coating, or it doesn't reduce the surface area that needs to be cooled. Thermal dispersant also occurs though the use of ingredients that promote the transfer of heat. Finally, black pigment is used to take advantage of the "black body radiation theory" and the coating also rejects oil, dirt, and grime, all of which trap heat.
The end result is a coating that does quite a bit to reduce heat. The numbers are actually larger than what I thought, as the reductions in heat versus bare metal are between 20-30%. For illustration, I've included one data sheet that details the reductions achieved in temps on an alternator. You can also find more details about the product in the sheet.
[imghttps://www.rx7club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=528588&stc=1&d=1396461 402[/img
The end result is a coating that does quite a bit to reduce heat. The numbers are actually larger than what I thought, as the reductions in heat versus bare metal are between 20-30%. For illustration, I've included one data sheet that details the reductions achieved in temps on an alternator. You can also find more details about the product in the sheet.
[imghttps://www.rx7club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=528588&stc=1&d=1396461 402[/img
Hope this helps. I'm going to go the route of ceramic dispersant coating my v-mount setup including piping so I will post up how that works out.
This statement about not filling all of the "porosity" does not make sense from an engineering standpoint at all. Air which will fill in this porosity not the coating as indicated by them is one of the worst thermal conductors. There is a reason why they fill the void between windows with gasses. Static air which is what will be trapped inside this porosity is even worse. Even if this ceramic coating was really better at conducting the heat and dispersing it than the aluminum why the heck would you add air between the two? You go from conduction heat transfer to static convection transfer again not making any sense. They may measure a change in temperature at the surface but this is most likely from the lack of heat getting to the surface due to all of the insulators that is sprayed onto the item. All of this does not make sense
04-02-14, 03:28 PM
#4065
I just emailed them to answer the question. They are pretty nice guys and I am sure will be willing to help. I took 1.5 years of mechanical engineering and the dropped out, for a reason 
Maybe I misunderstood the porosity statement, which came right off of the data sheet?
The results do speak for themselves though and as 95% of the auto market use the products, I am sure it does work.
What is interesting about this and a bit off tangent is I am working on another LED project which is requires me to heat sink LEDs differently than I have in the past. In short, what I have discussed in length with the led guys is using a copper (or maybe aluminum but that is a worse conductor) strip to which to affix the leds. The total surface area I need on the project to be effective is 18 inches and one strip (1" X 12") is therefore not large enough. So, I thought if I just increased the thickness of the metal that would work but in reality, it's the worst thing I can do as I find out. So, the solution here is to use two strips of 1" X 12" metal separated by a washer or two, so there is air between the two surfaces. The result is a solution that should exceed what I need. So, maybe it's like that.
Maybe I misunderstood the porosity statement, which came right off of the data sheet?The results do speak for themselves though and as 95% of the auto market use the products, I am sure it does work.
What is interesting about this and a bit off tangent is I am working on another LED project which is requires me to heat sink LEDs differently than I have in the past. In short, what I have discussed in length with the led guys is using a copper (or maybe aluminum but that is a worse conductor) strip to which to affix the leds. The total surface area I need on the project to be effective is 18 inches and one strip (1" X 12") is therefore not large enough. So, I thought if I just increased the thickness of the metal that would work but in reality, it's the worst thing I can do as I find out. So, the solution here is to use two strips of 1" X 12" metal separated by a washer or two, so there is air between the two surfaces. The result is a solution that should exceed what I need. So, maybe it's like that.
04-02-14, 03:38 PM
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What is interesting about this and a bit off tangent is I am working on another LED project which is requires me to heat sink LEDs differently than I have in the past. In short, what I have discussed in length with the led guys is using a copper (or maybe aluminum but that is a worse conductor) strip to which to affix the leds. The total surface area I need on the project to be effective is 18 inches and one strip (1" X 12") is therefore not large enough. So, I thought if I just increased the thickness of the metal that would work but in reality, it's the worst thing I can do as I find out. So, the solution here is to use two strips of 1" X 12" metal separated by a washer or two, so there is air between the two surfaces. The result is a solution that should exceed what I need. So, maybe it's like that.
04-02-14, 06:13 PM
#4068
What the hell is wrong with all of you people. If you don't like the coating, go do your own thing and stop taking turns dumping in this thread.
This is why the value of fd's needs to go up, then we won't have so many know it all engineer wannabe clowns arguing about marginal pieces of a build.
This is why the value of fd's needs to go up, then we won't have so many know it all engineer wannabe clowns arguing about marginal pieces of a build.
04-02-14, 07:05 PM
#4069
Wastegate John
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^ Dude, this is a discussion, if you dont like it leave.
Tig418 brought up some really good points. As I posted earlier, I too dont agree with the statments david is making regarding the coatings as they seem to contradict their claims. And the websites links do not really sufficiently explain how the coating works.
As someone who works hard for their money would you want to waste it on a coating that does not perform as claimed Collin?
Tig418 brought up some really good points. As I posted earlier, I too dont agree with the statments david is making regarding the coatings as they seem to contradict their claims. And the websites links do not really sufficiently explain how the coating works.
As someone who works hard for their money would you want to waste it on a coating that does not perform as claimed Collin?
04-02-14, 07:52 PM
#4070
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Wanabe engineer? I happen to have a bachelor's in mechanical enginneering a masters in engineering science, I have also worked in a world renowned thermal spray lab which developed ceramic tbc coatings for the military and civilian turbine engines and also have worked 7 years in one of north America's largest independent test laboratories as a test engineer. As stated this is a discussion forum and I have asked David some logical questions which nobody seems to be able to answer.
04-02-14, 08:58 PM
#4071
They way I am envisioning their description is that the film thickness of the applied product is not thick enough to "fill in" the pores on the surface. Do they have an application process that can ensure that there is no air trapped in the pores? I don't know. Maybe it is possible. The film thickness that they have listed in the spec sheet is rather thin compared to paint- some factory paintjobs are .005"- .006" range, and their coating is .0005"- .0015". That is a lot thinner.
04-02-14, 09:18 PM
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When it comes to your turbo I am sure you will do your own research as well. Not to mention, to find out whether it works or not won't cost me a dime. I, for one, am intrigued. David can have as much latitude as he wants here; at the end of the day it's not my car and in the grand scheme, who really cares?
Cheers,
Steven
04-02-14, 09:33 PM
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V/R,
Steven
04-02-14, 09:43 PM
#4075
^ Dude, this is a discussion, if you dont like it leave.
Tig418 brought up some really good points. As I posted earlier, I too dont agree with the statments david is making regarding the coatings as they seem to contradict their claims. And the websites links do not really sufficiently explain how the coating works.
As someone who works hard for their money would you want to waste it on a coating that does not perform as claimed Collin?
Tig418 brought up some really good points. As I posted earlier, I too dont agree with the statments david is making regarding the coatings as they seem to contradict their claims. And the websites links do not really sufficiently explain how the coating works.
As someone who works hard for their money would you want to waste it on a coating that does not perform as claimed Collin?
Most people work hard for their money, anyone posting about advertising of a coating should stop wasting their time and go work harder for some more money to better their life. Bunch of negative drama queens around here. Glad I've got a new toy to play with outside of the cry baby fd crowd we have around here.