Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
04-02-14, 09:45 PM
#4076
Shame to see this build thread constantly derailed. The trolls are bad enough...but even some of the legitimate questions...as pointed out by SW20/FD3...all I can say is I admire David's patience in looking for answers to those questions when it is his car and his money.
04-02-14, 09:57 PM
#4077
Wanabe engineer? I happen to have a bachelor's in mechanical enginneering a masters in engineering science, I have also worked in a world renowned thermal spray lab which developed ceramic tbc coatings for the military and civilian turbine engines and also have worked 7 years in one of north America's largest independent test laboratories as a test engineer. As stated this is a discussion forum and I have asked David some logical questions which nobody seems to be able to answer.
There are ways to respectfully ask questions and then there are ways to be a negative detractor from a build thread. Most people would agree you are the latter. If you are so concerned with the product, call the company yourself and report out. You are obviously best qualified to inform the public on this dyer issue.
04-03-14, 02:31 AM
#4078
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Hey David
Thank you for the quick thermal coating course!
I had another question on your build (maybe it is on the last history of your build thread but I can't seem to find it) are you building a new exhaust manifold to fit your new turbo setup? Are you going to measure EGT in each runner right after the exhaust manifold flange (maybe useful for tuning purposes) and finaly what are you doing for your oil drain of the turbo since it will be very close to the exaust manifold? Will it be made out of a hard line or a teflon line with AN fittings at each end and then a fire sleeve on top of the new line to protect it from heat?
I was also wondering since your engine will be out of the car will you revise your transmission setup? Or do anything to beef it up?
It probably is obvious but these are some of the things that I am also working on and wanted to know what seems to work to get ideas.
Also Post some pictures of your engine bay! :-)
Andrew
Thank you for the quick thermal coating course!
I had another question on your build (maybe it is on the last history of your build thread but I can't seem to find it) are you building a new exhaust manifold to fit your new turbo setup? Are you going to measure EGT in each runner right after the exhaust manifold flange (maybe useful for tuning purposes) and finaly what are you doing for your oil drain of the turbo since it will be very close to the exaust manifold? Will it be made out of a hard line or a teflon line with AN fittings at each end and then a fire sleeve on top of the new line to protect it from heat?
I was also wondering since your engine will be out of the car will you revise your transmission setup? Or do anything to beef it up?
It probably is obvious but these are some of the things that I am also working on and wanted to know what seems to work to get ideas.
Also Post some pictures of your engine bay! :-)
Andrew
04-03-14, 06:49 AM
#4079
^ Good morning everyone.
Regarding the thermal dispersant coatings, I will post up the info as soon as I receive it from Tech Line. Remember, they do supply 95% of the OEM and aftermarket industry with coatings so that is a very strong statement. Regardless, I will do my best to obtain what I can.
Andrew, Kilo might modify the current exhaust manifold to seat the turbo lower in the engine bay. The new Borg Warner turbo fits "as is" so I could use it no problems, but Kilo discussed with me lowering it an inch or two. He is going to talk this over with Gato (the fabricator) and go from there.
I am not planning on adding in more EGT sensors (I have one) but that is a good idea as it would give you some good info for tuning.
Regarding the turbo oil drain line, last time Kilo used a stainless steel braided line with AN fittings and a fire sleeve. My guess is this is his plan this time too.
Engine is back in the car so no new transmission thoughts. I do have on the list plans to swap in a Magnum T56 unit. This is the newer version of the T56 and it has some nice bells and whistles. The cost of a new unit would be around $2,500 - $2,800. That's just for the tranny so I figured it would be around $5,000 overall to do the swap. I already have the Carbenetics T56 spline for this to modify and use my triple disc carbon clutch.
Engine bay pics coming sometime soon. There is not much to see right now so I will post some up as the v-mount work is done.
Regarding the thermal dispersant coatings, I will post up the info as soon as I receive it from Tech Line. Remember, they do supply 95% of the OEM and aftermarket industry with coatings so that is a very strong statement. Regardless, I will do my best to obtain what I can.
Andrew, Kilo might modify the current exhaust manifold to seat the turbo lower in the engine bay. The new Borg Warner turbo fits "as is" so I could use it no problems, but Kilo discussed with me lowering it an inch or two. He is going to talk this over with Gato (the fabricator) and go from there.
I am not planning on adding in more EGT sensors (I have one) but that is a good idea as it would give you some good info for tuning.
Regarding the turbo oil drain line, last time Kilo used a stainless steel braided line with AN fittings and a fire sleeve. My guess is this is his plan this time too.
Engine is back in the car so no new transmission thoughts. I do have on the list plans to swap in a Magnum T56 unit. This is the newer version of the T56 and it has some nice bells and whistles. The cost of a new unit would be around $2,500 - $2,800. That's just for the tranny so I figured it would be around $5,000 overall to do the swap. I already have the Carbenetics T56 spline for this to modify and use my triple disc carbon clutch.
Engine bay pics coming sometime soon. There is not much to see right now so I will post some up as the v-mount work is done.
04-03-14, 08:45 AM
#4080
Okay, so just heard back from Tech Line. Awesome support by the way.
Here is what the R&D manager writes:
"Heat travels to cooler areas, it will do this through the path of least resistance.
The thermal dispersant coatings are designed to provide the path of least resistance, the coating is designed to put the thermally conductive materials in close contact so that the heat moves quickly to the cooler areas.
The application process also enhances this path of least resistance because the surface is etched before application of the coating, this removes any oxide layer that may have been there (the oxide layer is a thermal barrier). The coating itself is corrosion resistant and so will prevent the oxide layer from forming again.
A thermal dispersant also has the affect of reducing hot spots. It does this by conducting the heat across the coated surface faster than the base metal can. If this coated surface is exposed to a cooler medium (air, water, oil, antifreeze, etc...) the heat will move to the other medium faster because it has more heated surface in contact with the cooler medium.
The next level discussion:
20 to 30% difference would be dependent on the application. Factors that will have an effect on the dispersing of the thermal energy include; temperature of the heated surface, temperature of the cooler medium, flow rate of the cooler medium, etc...
The condition that the posted reply referred to is what we call heat soak. If there is a place in the path of thermal conductivity that the cooler medium does not flow (example: air trapped in an insulated area), the heat has no where to move to and will build up until it is at the same temperature as the heated source. This is where one must look at the thermal path one is building and make sure that that path has no areas to allow heat soak. The coating will allow one to build that path of least resistance to the area that allows the flow of the cooler medium to carry away the heat."
The "posted reply to which he refers was Tig418's post regarding "porosity".
Additional responses to Tig418's comments of:
"David, This statement about not filling all of the "porosity" does not make sense from an engineering standpoint at all. Air which will fill in this porosity not the coating as indicated by them is one of the worst thermal conductors."
ANSWER: Air would fill in the porosity after etching until displaced by the application of the coating. The coating is sprayed on, thus impacting under pressure the base material and driving out/replacing the air. It is also a liquid and can flow into such voids, again displacing air.
There is a reason why they fill the void between windows with gasses. Static air which is what will be trapped inside this porosity is even worse.
ANSWER: The air is displaced by the coating giving expanded surface area that is treated.
Even if this ceramic coating was really better at conducting the heat and dispersing it than the aluminum why the heck would you add air between the two? You go from conduction heat transfer to static convection transfer again not making any sense.
The air is displaced. Just as it is in a bath tub when you start filling it with a liquid.
They may measure a change in temperature at the surface but this is most likely from the lack of heat getting to the surface due to all of the insulators that is sprayed onto the item. All of this does not make sense."
ANSWER: Not according to the tests that have been run.
He is right in one respect that air or other fillers, such as oxidized material, debris, etc would reduce thermal efficiency. However TLTD works in several ways.
1. In preparation for coating all such debris, oxidized material, etc is removed by etching.
2. The process expands the surface area available to conduct heat
3. The spray pressure of the coating as it is applied displaces the air.
4. The coating goes on extremely thin and has minimal impact on surface area.
5. The ingredients are very thermally conductive. Kind of like using aluminum for a radiator instead of a ceramic. Greater thermal conductivity.
6. The coating is black which is the best for thermal movement/radiation/conductivity. (Black body radiation theory)
7. The coating is protective against corrosion and chemical attack and reduces substantially the oxidation of the base material, keeping efficiency up.
8. The material has anti stick properties that keep debris from building up as readily as normally would. It also makes it easier to clean.
It works according to basic laws of physics and was originally developed under contract with the US Navy and worked quite well. What we are producing is the third generation of this technology.
Finally, in addition to the alternator test results I previously posted, they also sent over two client tests and here are the results:
"Hello Gentlemen,
We have once more co-operated with a university in a coating test and the results are great. Tampere University of Applied Sciences has a Formula Student team, and they have tested the difference in cooling power of a TLTD coated radiator vs uncoated.
The test report is in Finnish, but I will give out the outlines of the results:
-Much more even heat distribution within the radiator, including the end tanks.
-Cooling power (kJ/s = kW) at 59,8 celcius: Uncoated 1.52kW (accuracy ± 0.08kW) VS TLTD coated 2.03kW (+/- 0.09kW).
-Difference in cooling power increases with inlet water temperature rising. According the linear regression of their chart at 95 celcius the readings are 3.0kW VS 4.2kW.
The flow rates are probably off compared to real world situation due to their lab environment and equipment but the difference is very clear.
Best regards
Markus
Matellius – Exhaust Oy"
And Scott from Elutions Design:
"I ran a quick test, nothing wildly elaborate. Just heated up two blocks of aluminum similar in size and shape, one coated with the thermal dispersant and one just bare aluminum and used a twin thermocouple probe to measure temperature vs. time during cooling in the open air. I'll spare y'all the equations but after you grind through the calculations you end up with the number of Joules (heat units) removed from each aluminum block over the measurement period corrected for the mass of each block. And what do you know, it DOES speed up the amount of heat removed. The coated block shed 14.1% more heat than the bare aluminum block did.
Upon going back and reading the data sheet on the coating it was claimed that while some of the benefit came from the black color there was more going on than just color, so I repeated the test and painted the bare aluminum block black with some Dupli-Color black engine enamel. In that test the thermal dispersant shed 10.7% more heat than the aluminum block painted black. So I'd say it is effective in helping shed heat.
I've coated a number of oil pans, timing case covers, turbo compressor housings and the like, the other nice feature is the coating goes on real easily and looks good when you're done."
Hope this helps.
Here is what the R&D manager writes:
"Heat travels to cooler areas, it will do this through the path of least resistance.
The thermal dispersant coatings are designed to provide the path of least resistance, the coating is designed to put the thermally conductive materials in close contact so that the heat moves quickly to the cooler areas.
The application process also enhances this path of least resistance because the surface is etched before application of the coating, this removes any oxide layer that may have been there (the oxide layer is a thermal barrier). The coating itself is corrosion resistant and so will prevent the oxide layer from forming again.
A thermal dispersant also has the affect of reducing hot spots. It does this by conducting the heat across the coated surface faster than the base metal can. If this coated surface is exposed to a cooler medium (air, water, oil, antifreeze, etc...) the heat will move to the other medium faster because it has more heated surface in contact with the cooler medium.
The next level discussion:
20 to 30% difference would be dependent on the application. Factors that will have an effect on the dispersing of the thermal energy include; temperature of the heated surface, temperature of the cooler medium, flow rate of the cooler medium, etc...
The condition that the posted reply referred to is what we call heat soak. If there is a place in the path of thermal conductivity that the cooler medium does not flow (example: air trapped in an insulated area), the heat has no where to move to and will build up until it is at the same temperature as the heated source. This is where one must look at the thermal path one is building and make sure that that path has no areas to allow heat soak. The coating will allow one to build that path of least resistance to the area that allows the flow of the cooler medium to carry away the heat."
The "posted reply to which he refers was Tig418's post regarding "porosity".
Additional responses to Tig418's comments of:
"David, This statement about not filling all of the "porosity" does not make sense from an engineering standpoint at all. Air which will fill in this porosity not the coating as indicated by them is one of the worst thermal conductors."
ANSWER: Air would fill in the porosity after etching until displaced by the application of the coating. The coating is sprayed on, thus impacting under pressure the base material and driving out/replacing the air. It is also a liquid and can flow into such voids, again displacing air.
There is a reason why they fill the void between windows with gasses. Static air which is what will be trapped inside this porosity is even worse.
ANSWER: The air is displaced by the coating giving expanded surface area that is treated.
Even if this ceramic coating was really better at conducting the heat and dispersing it than the aluminum why the heck would you add air between the two? You go from conduction heat transfer to static convection transfer again not making any sense.
The air is displaced. Just as it is in a bath tub when you start filling it with a liquid.
They may measure a change in temperature at the surface but this is most likely from the lack of heat getting to the surface due to all of the insulators that is sprayed onto the item. All of this does not make sense."
ANSWER: Not according to the tests that have been run.
He is right in one respect that air or other fillers, such as oxidized material, debris, etc would reduce thermal efficiency. However TLTD works in several ways.
1. In preparation for coating all such debris, oxidized material, etc is removed by etching.
2. The process expands the surface area available to conduct heat
3. The spray pressure of the coating as it is applied displaces the air.
4. The coating goes on extremely thin and has minimal impact on surface area.
5. The ingredients are very thermally conductive. Kind of like using aluminum for a radiator instead of a ceramic. Greater thermal conductivity.
6. The coating is black which is the best for thermal movement/radiation/conductivity. (Black body radiation theory)
7. The coating is protective against corrosion and chemical attack and reduces substantially the oxidation of the base material, keeping efficiency up.
8. The material has anti stick properties that keep debris from building up as readily as normally would. It also makes it easier to clean.
It works according to basic laws of physics and was originally developed under contract with the US Navy and worked quite well. What we are producing is the third generation of this technology.
Finally, in addition to the alternator test results I previously posted, they also sent over two client tests and here are the results:
"Hello Gentlemen,
We have once more co-operated with a university in a coating test and the results are great. Tampere University of Applied Sciences has a Formula Student team, and they have tested the difference in cooling power of a TLTD coated radiator vs uncoated.
The test report is in Finnish, but I will give out the outlines of the results:
-Much more even heat distribution within the radiator, including the end tanks.
-Cooling power (kJ/s = kW) at 59,8 celcius: Uncoated 1.52kW (accuracy ± 0.08kW) VS TLTD coated 2.03kW (+/- 0.09kW).
-Difference in cooling power increases with inlet water temperature rising. According the linear regression of their chart at 95 celcius the readings are 3.0kW VS 4.2kW.
The flow rates are probably off compared to real world situation due to their lab environment and equipment but the difference is very clear.
Best regards
Markus
Matellius – Exhaust Oy"
And Scott from Elutions Design:
"I ran a quick test, nothing wildly elaborate. Just heated up two blocks of aluminum similar in size and shape, one coated with the thermal dispersant and one just bare aluminum and used a twin thermocouple probe to measure temperature vs. time during cooling in the open air. I'll spare y'all the equations but after you grind through the calculations you end up with the number of Joules (heat units) removed from each aluminum block over the measurement period corrected for the mass of each block. And what do you know, it DOES speed up the amount of heat removed. The coated block shed 14.1% more heat than the bare aluminum block did.
Upon going back and reading the data sheet on the coating it was claimed that while some of the benefit came from the black color there was more going on than just color, so I repeated the test and painted the bare aluminum block black with some Dupli-Color black engine enamel. In that test the thermal dispersant shed 10.7% more heat than the aluminum block painted black. So I'd say it is effective in helping shed heat.
I've coated a number of oil pans, timing case covers, turbo compressor housings and the like, the other nice feature is the coating goes on real easily and looks good when you're done."
Hope this helps.
04-03-14, 12:19 PM
#4081
Since we're on the topic, I noticed NIC Industries also makes heat dissipating coatings under their Cerakote brand. I like that they have "tech sheets" for most of the coatings. I might coat some parts with this stuff too...
Cerakote Coatings: C-187Q Transfer Grey (Air Cure)
Cerakote Coatings: P-202Q Arctic Black (Oven Cure)
Cerakote Coatings: C-187Q Transfer Grey (Air Cure)
Cerakote Coatings: P-202Q Arctic Black (Oven Cure)
04-03-14, 06:08 PM
#4082
I'm going to give the Tech Line dispersant a shot on my v mount setup if someone in Orlando can apply it. Would love to test without it on and then with it applied but that would set me back another couple of weeks so probably will just apply it and go.
Think I mentioned this a while ago but Engine Ice sent me some of their product to try out versus regular coolant. As it's not a big deal to drain and replace the coolant we are going to test this.
Think I mentioned this a while ago but Engine Ice sent me some of their product to try out versus regular coolant. As it's not a big deal to drain and replace the coolant we are going to test this.
04-03-14, 06:19 PM
#4083
I have been using Engine Ice in my motorcycles for YEARS. for those engine it's perfect because as soon as you stop cruising, temps rise crazy fast and the fans on bikes are so small, you need an effective coolant to cool the bike down quickly.
Engine ice never really changed cruising temps, but it shouldn't anyways as it's regulated by the thermostat, but I will say, in my bikes when I changed to engine ice from whatever coolant was in before, it was a serious dramatic time drop in the time the fan would kick on and when it would turn back off when it reached temperature.
I've thought about putting some in my 7 but I've never really had a problem with cooling. But since you want to give it a try i'll let you be the guinea pig. I can't imagine it would be a problem as engine ice just releases heat A LOT better than "normal" coolant.
Engine ice never really changed cruising temps, but it shouldn't anyways as it's regulated by the thermostat, but I will say, in my bikes when I changed to engine ice from whatever coolant was in before, it was a serious dramatic time drop in the time the fan would kick on and when it would turn back off when it reached temperature.
I've thought about putting some in my 7 but I've never really had a problem with cooling. But since you want to give it a try i'll let you be the guinea pig. I can't imagine it would be a problem as engine ice just releases heat A LOT better than "normal" coolant.
04-04-14, 07:19 AM
#4084
^ Thanks for that feedback. I got a chance to speak at length to Dave Kinney, Engine Ice President, and he indicated they got their start in motorcycles for the exact reasons you posted.
Here is info on Engine Ice:
Auto
It's a PG-based product like Evans, but it also contains de-ionized water to lower temps (water is the best agent to reduce temperatures). PG (Propylene Glycol) is great at minimizing boiling but not so good at reducing temps. So, in theory, Engine Ice will be the best of both worlds.
Here is info on Engine Ice:
Auto
It's a PG-based product like Evans, but it also contains de-ionized water to lower temps (water is the best agent to reduce temperatures). PG (Propylene Glycol) is great at minimizing boiling but not so good at reducing temps. So, in theory, Engine Ice will be the best of both worlds.
04-04-14, 05:19 PM
#4086
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06-09-14, 03:44 PM
#4098
An aside from the build thread. Was in Washington DC recently and saw this in one of the museum technology exhibits:
Apparently "Mazda" has been around a lot longer than we thought (since 1915), just not in the car form we now know
Apparently "Mazda" has been around a lot longer than we thought (since 1915), just not in the car form we now know
06-13-14, 10:51 AM
#4100
Just back from my trip to FL. Had a chance to swing by Gato Performance and Kilo Racing to check in on the progress on the car.
The car is indeed at Gato's and we spoke for some time to review his thoughts and plans for the fabrication work. As an aside, he's awesome at what he does and you'd think his bead work was from a machine. Explains why he pulls in work from all over the world. Next week he will have the new turbo manifold made which will lower the turbo's position in the engine bay, making it a better fit for the upcoming v-mount work. He will also have the new down pipe and exhaust system done. Going to open it up a little for better flow but am also adding back in another 100 cell cat from a different manufacturer to see if I can get it to remove some of the rotary stink.
He'll then complete the v-mount work the following week and have the car back to Kilo's. He's ordered a 4 inch thick X 18 inch wide X 10.5 inch tall core which he'll then weld on the end tanks. This is the largest we can fit into the space available but his calculations say the setup will support up to 1,000 HP with no drop in pressure. He's modifying the Koyo radiator I previously purchased for use on the v-mount setup and this includes welding on an RX8 condenser in lieu of the stand alone RX7 unit. Doing this to save space. Finally, the v-mount setup will be ducted on both sides as well as the back of the assembly to completely seal it up and make it function as one unit. Should be pretty trick.
It's then back to Kilo where he will have the ceramic coating guy apply a TLD coating to the whole setup and piping for use as a heat dispersant. Kilo will the re-wire the car, fire her up, break it in, and then do some final dyno tuning where we will test different Borg Warner ARs to get the best setup for my application. Turbo looks beautiful BTW. To bad it sitting on my passenger seat right now
Should be shortly back on the road. Car looks really nice with the new Forgeline GA3 matte black rims with the red strip. The new BF Goodrich g-force Rival rubber also adds an aggressive look to the setup.
The car is indeed at Gato's and we spoke for some time to review his thoughts and plans for the fabrication work. As an aside, he's awesome at what he does and you'd think his bead work was from a machine. Explains why he pulls in work from all over the world. Next week he will have the new turbo manifold made which will lower the turbo's position in the engine bay, making it a better fit for the upcoming v-mount work. He will also have the new down pipe and exhaust system done. Going to open it up a little for better flow but am also adding back in another 100 cell cat from a different manufacturer to see if I can get it to remove some of the rotary stink.
He'll then complete the v-mount work the following week and have the car back to Kilo's. He's ordered a 4 inch thick X 18 inch wide X 10.5 inch tall core which he'll then weld on the end tanks. This is the largest we can fit into the space available but his calculations say the setup will support up to 1,000 HP with no drop in pressure. He's modifying the Koyo radiator I previously purchased for use on the v-mount setup and this includes welding on an RX8 condenser in lieu of the stand alone RX7 unit. Doing this to save space. Finally, the v-mount setup will be ducted on both sides as well as the back of the assembly to completely seal it up and make it function as one unit. Should be pretty trick.
It's then back to Kilo where he will have the ceramic coating guy apply a TLD coating to the whole setup and piping for use as a heat dispersant. Kilo will the re-wire the car, fire her up, break it in, and then do some final dyno tuning where we will test different Borg Warner ARs to get the best setup for my application. Turbo looks beautiful BTW. To bad it sitting on my passenger seat right now
Should be shortly back on the road. Car looks really nice with the new Forgeline GA3 matte black rims with the red strip. The new BF Goodrich g-force Rival rubber also adds an aggressive look to the setup.