Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
10-06-13, 08:04 AM
#3901
^That is a good question. I'd think with the setup Marco is running he'd have temps under control so I am a bit perplexed yet I am sure I have not run my car on track nearly as hard as he does.
If I can get the car back in time for my event on November 8th, I'll be able to do some logging on track. The event is in GA so it will still be a bit hot and a decent test of the new v-mount setup. For what it is worth, I use the RE MEDY water pump so that helps a bit but not like the electric unit Marco uses.
If I can get the car back in time for my event on November 8th, I'll be able to do some logging on track. The event is in GA so it will still be a bit hot and a decent test of the new v-mount setup. For what it is worth, I use the RE MEDY water pump so that helps a bit but not like the electric unit Marco uses.
10-06-13, 08:29 AM
#3902
I don't think there can be too much flow. The faster the coolant is moving the lower the temperature differential between the front and the rear of the motor. I don't think its overkill on flow anyway, the OEM pumps are pretty beefy too. My reason for going electric was space and simplicity. The only reason I even let the car run at that temperature is because I'm running Evan's coolant so I know its not going to have localized boiling.
I'm actually considering adding an auxiliary radiator in the back, possibly behind the subframe, with an ECU activated water pump and an inline thermostat to keep it from flowing until it needs to. I just can't decide which is the best way to route it. I'm thinking taking it from just before the inlet and then reinserting it just before the center rotor housing or instead taking it from the rear Iron and reinserting it also before the center rotor housing.
Here is a datalog of a session at Shannonville with about 4 laps worth of data... If I remember right, it was actually a cool day that day.
thewird
I'm actually considering adding an auxiliary radiator in the back, possibly behind the subframe, with an ECU activated water pump and an inline thermostat to keep it from flowing until it needs to. I just can't decide which is the best way to route it. I'm thinking taking it from just before the inlet and then reinserting it just before the center rotor housing or instead taking it from the rear Iron and reinserting it also before the center rotor housing.
Here is a datalog of a session at Shannonville with about 4 laps worth of data... If I remember right, it was actually a cool day that day.
thewird
10-06-13, 12:09 PM
#3904
Your probably right but how much lower. Unless it gets under 220, I'd rather stick to the Evan's. I thought about it before and decided I'd rather keep using it just for the fact that the rear of the motor runs hotter then the front. I'm worried about localized boiling which is more dangerous then running a higher overall temperature.
thewird
thewird
10-06-13, 01:08 PM
#3905
Well, I'm going to try some of the "Engine Ice" product:
Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant - Uses
It's essentially an Evans like product but it's both PG and water. Here is what Engine Ice has to say about the differences:
"Propylene Glycol (PG) – This is what Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant and Evans Coolant is made of. Evans is 100% PG and has an extremely high boil point of well over 350oF. They recommend you make some mechanical changes to your system, such as a zero psi cap or a different radiator in order to use it. Their goal is to eliminate boil-over, not to reduce temperatures. At their recommended 100% PG use, you’d have a boil point in excess of 350oF. At 100% PG, it would not be as effective at dissipating heat from your engine as well as it has a higher viscosity. Water is the ultimate coolant. All coolant products are measured against water for its heat dissipation capabilities. The lack of water in the use of Evans greatly reduces its ability to cool your engine. If you’re running heavy equipment or an 18-wheel truck, Evans is probably a good product.
Engine Ice is a diluted ratio of PG and Deionized water. The process of de-ionizing water eliminates all of the impurities that can do harm to your cooling system. Regardless if you are using tap, bottled, distilled, spring or R/O (reverse osmosis) waters, it can still contain minute particles of iron, magnesium, rust, lime and calcium. Many of these waters also contain chemicals, such as chlorine, fluorides and acids. Want proof? Take two different brands of distilled waters and perform your own taste test. They each taste different don’t they? If water were water, why would they be different? It’s because of the varying amounts of chemicals and minerals in these waters. These minerals and chemicals are what is the cause of scarring, scaling and mineral build-ups in your cooling system. Many also attribute these minerals and chemicals to water pump seal and gasket failures."
Seems to me to combines the best of both worlds in that it helps with boiling over as well as lowering coolant temps.
Thoughts?
Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant - Uses
It's essentially an Evans like product but it's both PG and water. Here is what Engine Ice has to say about the differences:
"Propylene Glycol (PG) – This is what Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant and Evans Coolant is made of. Evans is 100% PG and has an extremely high boil point of well over 350oF. They recommend you make some mechanical changes to your system, such as a zero psi cap or a different radiator in order to use it. Their goal is to eliminate boil-over, not to reduce temperatures. At their recommended 100% PG use, you’d have a boil point in excess of 350oF. At 100% PG, it would not be as effective at dissipating heat from your engine as well as it has a higher viscosity. Water is the ultimate coolant. All coolant products are measured against water for its heat dissipation capabilities. The lack of water in the use of Evans greatly reduces its ability to cool your engine. If you’re running heavy equipment or an 18-wheel truck, Evans is probably a good product.
Engine Ice is a diluted ratio of PG and Deionized water. The process of de-ionizing water eliminates all of the impurities that can do harm to your cooling system. Regardless if you are using tap, bottled, distilled, spring or R/O (reverse osmosis) waters, it can still contain minute particles of iron, magnesium, rust, lime and calcium. Many of these waters also contain chemicals, such as chlorine, fluorides and acids. Want proof? Take two different brands of distilled waters and perform your own taste test. They each taste different don’t they? If water were water, why would they be different? It’s because of the varying amounts of chemicals and minerals in these waters. These minerals and chemicals are what is the cause of scarring, scaling and mineral build-ups in your cooling system. Many also attribute these minerals and chemicals to water pump seal and gasket failures."
Seems to me to combines the best of both worlds in that it helps with boiling over as well as lowering coolant temps.
Thoughts?
10-06-13, 02:58 PM
#3907
the info is not completely correct... Evans is NOT all 100% PG, it is a mixture of PG and EG in different ratios depending on product.
I just read ICE's MSDS they have on their page, it's 94-96% PG plus 3% water and 1-3% additives and a boiling point of 365 F.... basically a copy of the older NPG formula so I don't see how they are any different. :/ is it cheaper? $$?
Only the original NPG is 100% PG, with higher viscosity and recommended hardware changes. All the other formulas are OK for street cars with factory cooling systems and also race cars.
I use NPG+ and posted the MSDS sheet years ago, it's actually about 70% EG 30% PG not counting the additives.
Current Products:
NPG Heavy Duty - recommended for heavy duty diesels
NPG High Performance - reformulated NPG+ and NPG Race - recommended for street and race cars and light duty diesels
NPG Powersports - for extreme duty race cars
original NPG - the only one 100% PG, recommended for racing where no EG is permitted, NOT recommended for daily drivers
The benefits of not containing any water are NO corrosion, which is great for our dissimilar metal rotary and no boilover or hot spots and no water pump cavitation. Not having hotspots mean that the engine's temperatures are better distributed allowing for safer higher temperature operation with less risk of warping.
I just read ICE's MSDS they have on their page, it's 94-96% PG plus 3% water and 1-3% additives and a boiling point of 365 F.... basically a copy of the older NPG formula so I don't see how they are any different. :/ is it cheaper? $$?
Only the original NPG is 100% PG, with higher viscosity and recommended hardware changes. All the other formulas are OK for street cars with factory cooling systems and also race cars.
I use NPG+ and posted the MSDS sheet years ago, it's actually about 70% EG 30% PG not counting the additives.
Current Products:
NPG Heavy Duty - recommended for heavy duty diesels
NPG High Performance - reformulated NPG+ and NPG Race - recommended for street and race cars and light duty diesels
NPG Powersports - for extreme duty race cars
original NPG - the only one 100% PG, recommended for racing where no EG is permitted, NOT recommended for daily drivers
The benefits of not containing any water are NO corrosion, which is great for our dissimilar metal rotary and no boilover or hot spots and no water pump cavitation. Not having hotspots mean that the engine's temperatures are better distributed allowing for safer higher temperature operation with less risk of warping.
Last edited by neit_jnf; 10-06-13 at 03:04 PM. Reason: read ICE MSDS added info
10-07-13, 01:08 AM
#3909
thought you might like to see this. look familiar?
Mazda Miata 1990-05 steering wheel cover - RedlineGoods leather shift boot store
Mazda Miata 1990-05 steering wheel cover - RedlineGoods leather shift boot store
10-07-13, 09:42 AM
#3910
thought you might like to see this. look familiar?
Mazda Miata 1990-05 steering wheel cover - RedlineGoods leather shift boot store
Mazda Miata 1990-05 steering wheel cover - RedlineGoods leather shift boot store
Gotta send them some new pics as I had the wheel rewrapped by a professional and it looks better.the info is not completely correct... Evans is NOT all 100% PG, it is a mixture of PG and EG in different ratios depending on product.
I just read ICE's MSDS they have on their page, it's 94-96% PG plus 3% water and 1-3% additives and a boiling point of 365 F.... basically a copy of the older NPG formula so I don't see how they are any different. :/ is it cheaper? $$?
Only the original NPG is 100% PG, with higher viscosity and recommended hardware changes. All the other formulas are OK for street cars with factory cooling systems and also race cars.
I use NPG+ and posted the MSDS sheet years ago, it's actually about 70% EG 30% PG not counting the additives.
Current Products:
NPG Heavy Duty - recommended for heavy duty diesels
NPG High Performance - reformulated NPG+ and NPG Race - recommended for street and race cars and light duty diesels
NPG Powersports - for extreme duty race cars
original NPG - the only one 100% PG, recommended for racing where no EG is permitted, NOT recommended for daily drivers
The benefits of not containing any water are NO corrosion, which is great for our dissimilar metal rotary and no boilover or hot spots and no water pump cavitation. Not having hotspots mean that the engine's temperatures are better distributed allowing for safer higher temperature operation with less risk of warping.
I just read ICE's MSDS they have on their page, it's 94-96% PG plus 3% water and 1-3% additives and a boiling point of 365 F.... basically a copy of the older NPG formula so I don't see how they are any different. :/ is it cheaper? $$?
Only the original NPG is 100% PG, with higher viscosity and recommended hardware changes. All the other formulas are OK for street cars with factory cooling systems and also race cars.
I use NPG+ and posted the MSDS sheet years ago, it's actually about 70% EG 30% PG not counting the additives.
Current Products:
NPG Heavy Duty - recommended for heavy duty diesels
NPG High Performance - reformulated NPG+ and NPG Race - recommended for street and race cars and light duty diesels
NPG Powersports - for extreme duty race cars
original NPG - the only one 100% PG, recommended for racing where no EG is permitted, NOT recommended for daily drivers
The benefits of not containing any water are NO corrosion, which is great for our dissimilar metal rotary and no boilover or hot spots and no water pump cavitation. Not having hotspots mean that the engine's temperatures are better distributed allowing for safer higher temperature operation with less risk of warping.
Engine Ice has been around for 13 years and is the #1 used coolant for motor cycle enthusiasts. Guys like us are using it more and more and I heard about it from a STI racer here in NC.
Evans and Engine Ice are NOT the same product as all Evans products, regardless of the composition, are non-water based. Engine Ice is a blend of PG and de-ionized water and other stuff. It does not list its de-ionized water content on the MSDS but the President (Dave) indicates it's much higher than the 3% you found. Dave says they've played around with the mix (PG/De-ionized water/Corrosion inhibitors) quite a bit and believe they now have a product that gives great benefits. He lists them as:
- Consistent operating temps: Once your engine is warmed up, you'll see a pretty steady level of operating temps and no great rises like you will see with Evans. Dave indicates this is because Evans has no water, so it is difficult to control temps as water is the best method to lower temps as it has 0 conductivity.
- Lower operating temps: In addition to consistent temps, your overall temps will be lower due to the mix of PG and de-ionized water.
- Corrosion protection: Engine Ice will prevent 98% or so of all corrosion due to its corrosion inhibitors.
- Lowered surface tension: The de-ionized water acts as a water wetter as it doesn't "stick" to the metal, thus promoting higher levels of heat transfer.
- Same boiling point (256F) and freeze protection (-20 something) as regular antifreeze.
- Very good dissimilar metal protection: Was developed for motorcycle engines that use dissimilar metals like the rotary engine. Is actually promoted in the motorcycle world by manufacturers as the best solution for protection.
Dave would also say their manufacturing process, including the use of higher quality PG, and the way they blend the product results in superior protection. Finally, for what it's worth, he indicated Evans is a very good product as well. He just thinks Engine Ice is a better solution for the average weekend racer, where you need daily protection and then lowered temps for track sessions that last 20 minutes or so. He said if you were going to run something like the 24 hours at Daytona, he'd use Evans.
So, I'll let you know how it turns out
10-07-13, 10:57 AM
#3912
I work with deionized water almost daily as a cooling medium for liquid cooled transformers. I just have to wonder about the conductivity after a period of time. In my application we monitor conductivity levels, and the system (closed loop just as in a car) has it's own deionizing loop. The moment you disconnect that , you can watch conductivity levels start to climb. If I had to bet i would say after even a few days in your engine the coolant isn't deionized anymore.
10-07-13, 10:59 AM
#3913
Evans does contain up to 3% water.
Here are Sierra's and older NPG+ info from their MSDS
Sierra:
Propylene Glycol 94-96 %wt
Water 3 %wt
Proprietary Additives 1-3 %wt
Evans NPG+:
Ethylene Glycol 66–70 %wt
Propylene Glycol %wt balance
Water <3 %wt
Additives <2 %wt
The MSDS is a requirement for any chemical component and it should list what the chemical contains as it is in the container. Does ICE need deionized water added when you install it or is it used undiluted like Evans? If it's undiluted then the MSDS is what it is unless they haven't updated it to a later formula.
They could very well have an additive package that lowers viscosity, lowers surface tension and improves heat transfer compared to Evans.
I'm curious about the price, how much is it per gallon?
I noticed they recommend yearly changes or 2x per year for racing cars.
Here are Sierra's and older NPG+ info from their MSDS
Sierra:
Propylene Glycol 94-96 %wt
Water 3 %wt
Proprietary Additives 1-3 %wt
Evans NPG+:
Ethylene Glycol 66–70 %wt
Propylene Glycol %wt balance
Water <3 %wt
Additives <2 %wt
The MSDS is a requirement for any chemical component and it should list what the chemical contains as it is in the container. Does ICE need deionized water added when you install it or is it used undiluted like Evans? If it's undiluted then the MSDS is what it is unless they haven't updated it to a later formula.
They could very well have an additive package that lowers viscosity, lowers surface tension and improves heat transfer compared to Evans.
I'm curious about the price, how much is it per gallon?
I noticed they recommend yearly changes or 2x per year for racing cars.
10-07-13, 11:26 AM
#3915
Nope, car will not be ready, even for a break in drive. I'll be lucky to have it back together for the Nov 9th event at Roebling.
Don't know except for what Engine Ice tells me.
The price is about the same so no advantage there. You use the product straight out of the bottle so no dilution. Engine Ice says they turn in their MSDS sheets to the state of FL and they are not required to list water. The state tests only the chemicals they use, so what they send in doesn't match the chemical composition of what you get, after the de-ionized water is added.
Don't shoot the messenger here, just relaying what they've said.
Kilo wants to test the Engine Ice and its effectiveness. So, we are going to run what I normally use first, which is about 70% distilled water and then 30% of the regular green stuff. We'll put this into the new v-mount setup and street the car and then take it to the dyno. We will do the same for the Engine Ice and see if there is a difference. Even if temps are around the same (should be less in theory) I'd still say the Engine Ice is a better alternative to my current setup as the boiling point will be raised versus the water/regular coolant mix. I'd have to get to over 124 celsius before the Engine Ice will have a boiling issue.
I work with deionized water almost daily as a cooling medium for liquid cooled transformers. I just have to wonder about the conductivity after a period of time. In my application we monitor conductivity levels, and the system (closed loop just as in a car) has it's own deionizing loop. The moment you disconnect that , you can watch conductivity levels start to climb. If I had to bet i would say after even a few days in your engine the coolant isn't deionized anymore.
Evans does contain up to 3% water.
Here are Sierra's and older NPG+ info from their MSDS
Sierra:
Propylene Glycol 94-96 %wt
Water 3 %wt
Proprietary Additives 1-3 %wt
Evans NPG+:
Ethylene Glycol 66–70 %wt
Propylene Glycol %wt balance
Water <3 %wt
Additives <2 %wt
The MSDS is a requirement for any chemical component and it should list what the chemical contains as it is in the container. Does ICE need deionized water added when you install it or is it used undiluted like Evans? If it's undiluted then the MSDS is what it is unless they haven't updated it to a later formula.
They could very well have an additive package that lowers viscosity, lowers surface tension and improves heat transfer compared to Evans.
I'm curious about the price, if it is significantly cheaper then it sounds attractive for Evans users.
Here are Sierra's and older NPG+ info from their MSDS
Sierra:
Propylene Glycol 94-96 %wt
Water 3 %wt
Proprietary Additives 1-3 %wt
Evans NPG+:
Ethylene Glycol 66–70 %wt
Propylene Glycol %wt balance
Water <3 %wt
Additives <2 %wt
The MSDS is a requirement for any chemical component and it should list what the chemical contains as it is in the container. Does ICE need deionized water added when you install it or is it used undiluted like Evans? If it's undiluted then the MSDS is what it is unless they haven't updated it to a later formula.
They could very well have an additive package that lowers viscosity, lowers surface tension and improves heat transfer compared to Evans.
I'm curious about the price, if it is significantly cheaper then it sounds attractive for Evans users.
Don't shoot the messenger here, just relaying what they've said.
Kilo wants to test the Engine Ice and its effectiveness. So, we are going to run what I normally use first, which is about 70% distilled water and then 30% of the regular green stuff. We'll put this into the new v-mount setup and street the car and then take it to the dyno. We will do the same for the Engine Ice and see if there is a difference. Even if temps are around the same (should be less in theory) I'd still say the Engine Ice is a better alternative to my current setup as the boiling point will be raised versus the water/regular coolant mix. I'd have to get to over 124 celsius before the Engine Ice will have a boiling issue.
10-07-13, 11:38 AM
#3916
cool, curious about results!
it sounds like a good alternative, they do recommend yearly changes or twice a year for racecars. That will definitely increase the cost vs lifetime use Evans.
They list their viscosity in the FAQ section, it is dramatically lower at 0.9 ct @90C vs 2.3 ct @ 100C for Evans.
it sounds like a good alternative, they do recommend yearly changes or twice a year for racecars. That will definitely increase the cost vs lifetime use Evans.
They list their viscosity in the FAQ section, it is dramatically lower at 0.9 ct @90C vs 2.3 ct @ 100C for Evans.
10-07-13, 11:51 AM
#3917
^ I'll post them up when I get to run the tests, which should be in a few weeks. Not saying Evans isn't a good solution, I just worry about the long term effects of running a rotary engine hotter, regardless of the boiling point advantages. Seems like a bad thing to me so if a solution exists to lower temps and have a more stable overall operating temp, I'm going to try it.
10-07-13, 12:43 PM
#3918
^ I'll post them up when I get to run the tests, which should be in a few weeks. Not saying Evans isn't a good solution, I just worry about the long term effects of running a rotary engine hotter, regardless of the boiling point advantages. Seems like a bad thing to me so if a solution exists to lower temps and have a more stable overall operating temp, I'm going to try it.
10-07-13, 03:25 PM
#3919
^ Me too The vmount components all showed up today so the car should soon be over to Gato's for fabrication. Kilo is waiting on the powder coating guy to finish so he can assemble everything. Still staying (mostly) with the black on black engine bay theme with a little bling added in.
The vmount components all showed up today so the car should soon be over to Gato's for fabrication. Kilo is waiting on the powder coating guy to finish so he can assemble everything. Still staying (mostly) with the black on black engine bay theme with a little bling added in.
10-09-13, 10:09 PM
#3920
Sounds like a nice big setup. Mine is just a single pass 3 row. I thought about modifying it for dual pass but read it creates more water flow resistance and hurts power. Little things like that effect an NA hp and fuel economy more so than something boosted. Anyways, I can't wait to see your completed V mount setup when it's finished.
Attachment 51185
Attachment 51186
Attachment 51185
Attachment 51186
Speed of light and I converted my single pass off the shelf Koyo to a dual pass when we fab'ed our custom V-mount setups. Results were fantastic. I have never read anything negative about dual or multi pass radiators like you mentioned. Nor have I seen anything in real life to substantiate that. I guess it may be different if the water pump in question is not up to the task but the FD water pump certainly is.
I have personally seen results in the local SCCA road racing world where the switch to a dual or multi pass solves heat control issues with no other changes. I believe this is a better alternative to an overly thick radiator. OEM rads tend to be thin for a reason - easier to get airflow through the air-to-air heat exchangers.
10-09-13, 10:39 PM
#3921
Speed of light and I converted my single pass off the shelf Koyo to a dual pass when we fab'ed our custom V-mount setups. Results were fantastic. I have never read anything negative about dual or multi pass radiators like you mentioned. Nor have I seen anything in real life to substantiate that. I guess it may be different if the water pump in question is not up to the task but the FD water pump certainly is.
I have personally seen results in the local SCCA road racing world where the switch to a dual or multi pass solves heat control issues with no other changes. I believe this is a better alternative to an overly thick radiator. OEM rads tend to be thin for a reason - easier to get airflow through the air-to-air heat exchangers.
I have personally seen results in the local SCCA road racing world where the switch to a dual or multi pass solves heat control issues with no other changes. I believe this is a better alternative to an overly thick radiator. OEM rads tend to be thin for a reason - easier to get airflow through the air-to-air heat exchangers.
Hmm thx for the insight. I'm using 20b water pump so I know it moving some water. Well see how mine holds up when I start seeing track time.
10-10-13, 11:36 AM
#3923
What about modifying an intercooler core into a radiator. I'm using the exact same Intercooler core as my radiator...just welded in a divider to make it a dual pass. I believe the dimensions are 3" thick, 23" long, 18 "high. The thing works excellent and takes up much less pace/is easier to package...than a traditional radiator. It may not be for everyone but it sure as hell impressed my tuner on the dyno...and has kept my car cool out in the high desert...which says something since temps were over 100 degrees F this summer.