sanguissaevus

She was goin fine and all the sudden started bogging hard and lost power and rpm while still giving throttle. I can get it to start up anx idle fine. I can drive it a short distance but then it bogs and dies. It will do this at any throttle position after about a minute of driving. I turned the key to the on position, thereby not crankong over the engine and looked jnto the carb to see of any fuel was squirted in while my passenger mashed the throttle. No gas came out. From my searches this makes me rhink its the accelerator pump. Is there a road side fix to this? Im stranded so any help is much appreciated.

rxtasy3

iTrader: (2)

i would suspect fuel pump. or maybe just a filter change. how is the fuel level in the tank? probably picked up some trash.

sanguissaevus

Tank show about a 1/4 full. I can start ot up fine. It will idle. Once i start driving after maybe a minute it will slowly bog and die.

Note that it visibly injects fuel into the carb when idling. I can even rev it for a bit without issue before it eventually bogs and dies even under light throttle.

Note that with the key turned in the on position (no cranking of engine) and the throttle pressed all the way in, thee is not fuel squirted into the carb which should happen from the accelerator pump.

Thanks for the reply. More responses extremely welcome.

sanguissaevus

Also note that starting it up and driving it for about a minute is very repeatable. I have done this about 10 times already.

I have checked all vacuum lines, ignition connections and just about everything I can think of. There is nothing visibly wrong under the hood that i can spot.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Your filter may be clogged with trash from the low level in the tank. Is this car new to you or just out of storage? If it is I suspect the tank has crud in it.

rxtasy3

iTrader: (2)

another thought, maybe the pump is only running in the start position. if after it stalls there's no fuel squirt working the throttle. disconnect coil wires, crank for 5 sec then check for fuel squirt again.

the only effect a non working accelerator pump will have is the need to feather the throttle to rev it. it would still run/drive just fine, just have a heavy stumble as soon as u tried to accelerate.

cmnork

You should still be able to drive without a working accelerator pump, so I doubt that’s the only issue. But if it’s not visibly squirting sound like a carb rebuild is in order.

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

Your accel pump may have a bad diaphragm but as others have said, this is the classic symptom of crud in the tank. The inside of the tanks just rust and peel over the years, and those little flakes swish around in the bottom of the tank. When you get down to a 1/4 tank or so they can start plugging the lines.

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

First start by checking to make sure you have good fuel volume to the carb. You can remove the fuel feed line and stick it in an empty water bottle and crank the engine over check to see that it fills quickly and that the gas is free of sediment.

Check the fuel filter for sediment as well. Its very likely that you are picking up sediment from the tank and the filter is clogging and starving the engine for fuel under load. This will require removing the tank and having it professionally cleaned and replacing the fuel filter.

The next thing to consider is that the jets in the carburetor are plugging up with sediment from the float bowls. It may be time to rebuild the carburetor, especially if its never been rebuilt.

peejay

If the fuel filter is more than 3000 miles old, change it.

With a stock pump, the fuel system is so marginal that it takes very little blockage in the filter to cause fuel starvation. After 3000mi, you could not drive at 85mph without the carburetor running dry and causing the engine to cut out after about a minute.

sanguissaevus

Update. Much of my issue was the fact i was stranded on the side of the road. I had little to no tools or equipment amd I'm extremely far from home. I had it towed to the nearest autozone to allow me access to supplies and tools. It sat over night untill i returned to it at autozone the next morning.

Upon arrival i noted the sight glass for the float showed normal fuel level, unlike the night prior when it broke down where it read very low. Not sire why it would have corrected itself over night but i thought maybe it miggt suggest a line leak. I purcahsed some carb choke cleaner spray to hose down everything on the outside of the carb so i could see clearly any issues. This was very helpful exposing two rubber lines that had cuts in them and were leaking fuel. I cut the damaged areas off one and replace the other entirely and this resolved my issue. Both lines were next to each other located on the carb's driver side roughly center mass on the carb.

On a side note, as soon as i repaired these I noted the aft secondary fuel jet started dribbling fuel onto its respective butterfly valve at idle. Didn't seam to affect drivability though.

Thanks for all the help. Im going to check out the fuel filter and go over all y'alls suggestions for preventative maintenance.

sanguissaevus

Update to the update....dead again! Doing the same thing. I can start it and drive about a minute theb it dies again. Have to wait 5-10min before it will start again. Mind blowing because replacing those carberator lines i mentioned seemed to work. It drove for 7 hrs straight adtet that repair. I checked under the hood to see if something came apart or looked different. Nothing i can see so far. I guess the fuel filter is next stop?

sanguissaevus

Replaced fuel filter. Ran for a bit but died again. Fuel filter was extremely filled with rust sediment though.

cmnork

Sounds like it's time to drop your gas tank and flush it

JOE68

works great ... https://por15.com/products/motorcycl...ank-repair-kit

JOE68

https://por15.com/collections/fuel-t...ank-repair-kit

sanguissaevus

Thank you! I bought some and am about to start a refurbishment on the tank. That said, I'm still not 100% it'll resolve the issue but hopeful.

While Im waiting for an ooen time to work the fuel tank, I've been continuing on troubleshooting. I've been spooling myself uo on carbs in general and also running through the nikki carb service manual to better understand whats going on. This is my first carb vehicle mind you and Im far more knowledgeable on efi.

So, I observed that both floats are running dry at the same time. I don't understand how they interact with each other or even the purpose of two floats yet (I assume its something to do with going uphill and downhill to allow continuous fuel feed). If they operate independently of each other that would point to the fuel tank or other portion of fuel delivery. Its doubtful both needles in each bowl is sticking at the same time. If they operate together then that would leave the issue open to the carb.

This leads me to my main question....If one float needle gets stuck, does it affect the other float's fuel delivery? So, if one goes dry will both then go dry, or can one be filled and the other empty?

Also, I have tried tapping on the carb where each float needle is located (and all over the carb for tbat matter) and results have varied. Inconsistent results in other words which leads me to believe it isn't the needles sticking. Are the needles themselves visible from the each sight glass when they are fully extended?

I have ruled out the fuel pump by the way. It is brand new and I have put a multimeter to it. Voltage checks good and consistent. I tried moving the wires around during check with no issue so power delivery to the fuel pump looks good as well. Resistance looks to be good too. Also, while the car is running you can feel the pump operating when you place your hand on it.

sorry for my delayed update. Life is busy. Thanks for y'alls insight. Its funny, I never thought I'd be working with a carb in my life and yet here I am.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Needles and floats are independent of each other. Each bowl serves one rotor basically. You can't see the floats via the window. You probably have gunk in your carb at this point. Cleanup and fix the tank, new filter and then rebuild the carb. Do not use the new needles or seats that come with the kit or the extra gaskets for the plastic isolator under the throttle body. Its already made to seal up unless really damaged by fire or abuse. Do use lots of carb cleaner and air to blow out all the small passages.

sanguissaevus

Noted. Thank you very much! Its very doubtful then both bowl systems malfunction the same time everytime if they are independent of one another. I've got everything I need now for the fuel tank. POR15 arrived and I'm going to try electrolysis for the rust removal. Though i recently replaced the fuel filter, I have another new fuel filter ready to install once I'm done with the tank. I'll let y'all know how it comes out. Cheers!

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

Keep us updated on how it turns out. I'm betting the sediment in the tank is causing your issues.

sanguissaevus

Ok update time. The short is de-rusting the tank completely solved the problem. Some notes for those interested in the how and some issues I ran into:

A new tank would cost around $600 and they are still available from Mazdatrix and Atkins. No aftermarket options. Looked at contracting someone to make a plastic one and that would have been a couple thousand. Oh well. So onto de-rusting. I tried electrolysis first. DON'T DO IT FOR A TANK! Why not? Because though it will completely remove the corrosion in a fantastic way, it leaves a crap ton of "byproduct" (a very gooey sludge created from the process) that is near impossible to remove without physically accessing the inside. This tank will not allow physical access inside. Only liquid or gas can clean it due to the tiny access panels and welded in internal baffles. For just about any other corrosion removal I would fully advocate electrolysis because the byproduct can be easily cleaned off (think nuts bolts, suspension parts, etc.)

The solution I found was use Acid. I used a very powerful Muriatic acid which removed the corrosion and sludge in about 5 min. This is such powerful acid it should only be used for a short period. It will remove good metal too and if not careful it could potentially eat through the tank. 5 minutes however isn't going to do that. WARNING! The fumes are deadly and a respirator should be used (not a mask but an actual respirator with external filters.) Sounds great right? Well, it had a problem of its own. Severe flash rusting. As soon as I rinsed it with water or a weak cleaner it would completely cover itself in a blanket of rust. Not rust spots....A blanket covering the entire inside! I new the PH needed to be neutralized but didn't know just how important this step is and what the best product to use is. Water isn't near enough. An equally or near equally strong and opposite Alkali PH needs to be used. I found that pure concentrated Simple Green concentrate worked well. Immediately after the acid wash, dump it and pour pure simple green concentrate or a similar PH product into the tank. This will hard shift the PH back over but closer to neutral. I poured about a half gallon of Simple Green in and sloshed it around for a few minutes careful to get every nook and cranny. then I diluted with about 5 gallons of water and sloshed that around for a bit. Then I poured more water in until the tank was full. I poured that out then ran water from a hose completely filling the tank and allowing it to over flow. I then swished pure water around again to ensure all simple green was out. No flash rusting occurred. I immediately air pressure dried to get all remaining water out. Then I poured a mixture of mineral spirits and 2 stroke oil (to coat the inside with petroleum to prevent further rusting) and HEET (to absorb any left in moisture or further condensation) and sloshed it around to coat the inside of the tank. I installed the tank and then filled with fuel. The mineral spirits, 2 stroke oil and HEET will all burn in the engine no problem. I used maybe a 3rd a gallon of spirits, half a quart of 2 stroke and 3 bottles of HEET (i think each bottle is only 12oz.) Also, use the red HEET bottles if you're using 2 stroke oil because HEET discourages the yellow bottle with 2 stroke...I don't know why. There were no adverse affects with all this mixed with a full tank of 87 octane pump gas. I used this amount of these products to ensure all the water was certainly removed and that the tank was coated well until I could get the tank filled with fuel to prevent further rust (bare steel will almost immediately rust from humidity which is why keeping it coated in petroleum is essential). You could just use fuel in replace of the mineral spirits but I felt the spirits would better help cleaning any light flash rusting if it did occur better than fuel. I could be wrong of course.

So how in the hell do I think I can prevent the tank rusting again without coating the inside? Good question. Glad you asked. I called around to a few companies asking if there was a way I could plate the inside myself by cold plating it with something like ZRC zinc or Caswell's offerings but none thought it was a good idea for this application. I then tried to think more simply. My answer which has worked for the last few weeks in very high heat and humid Texas summer is to continue to add HEET to the tank every fill up and not allow the tank to stay partially filled for any extended period. HEET is a very cheap product and it is effective at absorbing water which is what is causing the rust. Condensation builds at the top of the tank corroding it there and then falls into the fuel going to the bottom creating a corrosion pocket wherever it settles. The HEET is unique in that it's water soluble and so absorbs with the water, but doesn't corrode and is combustible. By keeping the tank full, thereby constantly coating it in petroleum (anti-corrosion coating), and mixing HEET to capture any water, I think it will keep the tank rust free. Also, I'm adding 2 stroke oil into it which may help to keep the inside walls of the tank coated in petroleum (help to cling to the walls) which is anti corrosive. I'm not sure if that is a fact but even if it doesn't help in this way it still is helping to lubricate the apex, corner and side seals. So far no rust. I use a clear fuel filter and it is looking great.

You probably noted that I did not use POR15. I decided not to go this route due to some documented failures of the product and similar products. Though these may have been due to human error upon application, I am certainly prone to error and you only get one shot with these products. Due to the baffling and tiny access ports of this tank, if the product doesn't stick you will have ruined the tank entirely and will be forced to get a new one. I figured I can try going bare like the manufacturer made it and if it still rusts again then I can risk an internal coating process because at that point why not.

If my method fails in the long run I'll look at electroplating the inside again or just go straight to POR15 or something similar. The HEET solution was the cheapest route and seemed like a logical one. If it fails I will update this thread. Until then I'm considering it a success.

sanguissaevus

Quick update. Ive been consistent with adding both HEET and premix in the tank and so far, still no issues. Fuel filter looks clean still. I'll try to periodically remember to give updates. Im curious to get to a year and see of this regiment still works.