hondahater

iTrader: (2)

gotta admit thats pretty damn cool!

coolingmist

Actually its Vari-Cool!!!

Alkycontrol

Dont know, my controller since day one has had a variable slope. Meaning you need to be able and setup the ramp whether it be a system that comes on hard the gradually rises or a system that comes on weak and raises aggressively as the signal to it increases.. somewhere in between those two parameters you will find a simple curve that meets your engines requirements. I had this figured out when Snow, SMC, and Coolingmist were messing with having a "set" and a "max".. guess it caught on that designing this way was flawed.. At least Coolingmist is addressing with a new line of controllers..

All you need to do is make the controller ramp pressure and get the delivery close. The VE mapping on your cars ECM takes the rest where it needs to be. Remember alky is only 15-20% of your fueling.. changes to it are not a huge deal. Grasp this.. If it is far off..then tweaks to the delivery are required. But a controller driving a pump making pressure has an inherent delay built in due to mass.. it takes time to develop pressure... and trying to do a mid point adjustment is worthless. That is why the word "close" is used. If we were dealing with a fuel injector above an intake port, then we could get every cylinder were we needed it to be.

Is the injection process need to be 100% precise.. no. Close.. yes.

The bottom line to all this stuff.. the meat and potatoes is not the controller.. remember the majic show.. dont get cuaght up in the distraction.. the majic is in making the system part of your fuel system, and designing every part of it to be 110% reliable.. since it is critical it works every time. The fanciest space shuttle ninja death controller connected to an ill concieved installation.. will fail miserably.

Anyone with an aftermarket ECU.. meaning that it can be tuned.. I will guarantee 100% perfect AFR.. how do I know this.. cuase it comes from tuning on hundreds of cars running an injection setup

Back to BDC's post.. anyone making any power using WI.. where are the data logs of REAL track testing.. until then.. its all smoke and mirrors.

Gadjets dont make power... keeping things as simple as possible always will yield the best results. I asked a close friend of mine after a run going down a track.. what boost you run?.. He replied.. I dunno... car is going so fast dont have time to look at anything Hopefully you build cars fast enough to rely on data.. and make your changes based on the data provided.. This is tuning 101.. until this concept is grasped.. you will never improve upon performance. The AMS video may make you realize how little time one has to make any adjustment.

I can post data logs showing air fuel ratio and intake air temps. Coupled with time slips..

Cheers

coolingmist

The difference is in the software. You can change the curve to meet your cars fuel needs with our system, every car, every time. Yours will get close, but it will not be exact. We know for a fact that we have had many customers replace the Alkycontrol and snow controllers with ours and are now able to run to a perfectly smooth transition. yes, with the variable slope you can get it right for alot of the cars, get within a reasonable percent. You cant claim its exact, our controller has that ability.

My hat has always been off to you. I realize you had one of the first controllers, maybe even the first. And as far as I know other than our controller yours is the only one with the "ramp" up button (our tuning curve).

I always recognize innovation and development to make the industry what it is. We are the first to integrate this feature in a digital controller (and only as far as I can tell) We just took it a step further with the programmability.

Thats all you can do. We can get it exact. In many cases it will prove better.

Our systems ship with a checkvalve that can go on the high pressure side next to the injector. From the users perspective the spray is instant. Pressure is held in the line.

We disagree. If you can choose between "close" and "exact" for the same or less cost what would you choose?

This is not a "distraction" or a "Majic" Show. This controller is still one of a kind and the hand held commander is invaluable. The user will be able to view the flow rate in real time, the water pressure, boost, intake temps and more. That, combined with the ability to set the controller params makes it exceptional.


Well, our reliablity record is unscathed. Our controllers go through insane Q/A and calibration. Its worth mentioning the accurace of Digital VS Analog as well as reaction time cant be compared. I know that you will say something like "its overkill"

For example, snow performance stats say the controller they have is 1.5 ms RT. ours is .28. That is a mountain of difference. yes I agree that the pump doesn't know the difference between 1.5 or .28, even if yours has a r/t of 5-6 ms ..the pump cant react that fast. ... but it goes to show you the design and thought that went into our controller.

Great, not every one is a tuner. This lets the user and shop have a greater level of control and performance.

All of us have crazy dyno sheets. I have a WRX STI that gained 60 lb/ft TQ with our controller kit and a tune. The dyno sheet is on our site. We have evos that gained 90+ HP and of course diesels that gained more that that.

Our controller is as simple as it gets. Its designed for ease of use and and scailablity. Using a computer is NOT necessary, its plug and play out of the box.

The bottom line, our controller can do anything that any other progressive controller on the market can do and a whole lot more.

And for the record, we were never messing with just a MIN and MAX.

You have a legitimate product and a proven product, I have never, ever bashed your product or talked down to your company. We recognize what you have done with your controller and your company.

We feel we have a better product, that is simply business. These debates are fun, I have no problem with it. The great thing about having a controller like this is the fact that we can do so much with it and go to places that other controllers just cant.

As stated earlier, the philosophy of our company is to build an empty shell (the controller) that has all the robust hardware and circuitry to do whatever we can program for it. That means, in 2 months we may have a new flash that has new functionality. We dont have to re-design our hardware when we get a new idea or new version. The customer benefits because its just a software upgrade...

How you like them apples?

dubulup

ok, so where is the data, that shows HP improvements of EXACT over CLOSE?

coolingmist

There are many situations where you will have a controller, even with the adjustable gain and system sprays too little or too much. If its too much water you can get hesitation which will rob power, if you have too little you can have the same problem. In those cases, you will absolutely get a gain from "close" or "EXACT".

Coolingmist has nothing to prove. We are simply saying that our controller can get you exact amount of flow. When you are tuning and your engine relies on it such as a rotary, I would want exact, but thats me.

I am not saying that the other controller does not work, nor am I saying that you will not make HP gains with it. Im simply saying our controller is more flexible, has more features, is easier to tune and is in the same price range. If you are talking about a controller that costs 1/2 the price and its 'close" I would agree this is a non-issue, but when you are talking the same price, I would go with the one that offers the best potential.

At the end of the day we have sold our kits to 100's of RX-7s easily more than any other company. Our kits are proven to work on Rx-7s and developed on them.

My best advice to anyone that wants a kit is to investigate all the companies, look at the product, look at the support, look at the features and the price. Purchase the one that fits your requirements the best.

Thanks.

BDC

That didn't answer Dubulup's question, David. He's looking for actual numbers and so am I. I've posed the question, "Has anyone (in as much as this forum's membership is concerned) got any numbers before and after from the use of the Coolingmist hardware?" Not a single person has answered yet the thread has upwards of 1000 views, if not more. I find it odd that nobody has answered even though this is the largest and most active rotary Internet community in the world as well as what you've just stated: "At the end of the day we have sold our kits to 100's of RX-7s easily more than any other company. Our kits are proven to work on Rx-7s and developed on them."

Where's the data? Where's the before and after dyno sheets? Where's before and after telemetry data and datalogging? What about track times? Anything? 100's of systems out there on Rx7's yet (even though I've only seen one in all of my tuning done around the country) not a single, satisfied owner has answered?

B

coolingmist

I did answer the question, read it again.

Maybe you should read Jasons response. 500 + HP, coolingmist controller

If you have any doubt to that look into the group buy section for the last 2-3 years and you will see we or jason have run group buys 2 times a year and in each one we have sold 15-25 + kits. We did the same at nopistons.

If customers want to post, Im sure they will. I know of no dyno sheets on rx-7s, never said I did. We have them on WRX STI's, etc.

Im not going to justify the merits of water/meth injection. It works, its been proven. You can search for answers yourself if you want to. If you think our systems are inferior or you dont want to buy one because we dont have a dynosheet, thats fine with me.

We have our product, some will like it, others wont. At the end of the day its all good.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Wow, isnt this fun... Lets get some more Alcohol system makers in the mix and get an all out flame war going!

I have been using SMCs boost progressive system for YEARS with great results. It has a boost progressive delivery, and everything I need in a nicely packaged kit.

On another note, why inject water anyways? Alcohol and meth are much more effective at controlling knock and cooling intake charge. NOT because water cools better, because it does, but because of how much you can inject versus water.

Rat

*edit*

I have experience/installed some of these systems and here are my reviews:

Alchy Control: Cheap kits (at least the lower model ones), Sureflo pumps that have a bad habit of un-primimg, one kit arrived with a tank that had a HOLE in it! On the plus side, they make alot of custom kits, and seem to be very willing to work with customers that have complaints. Also make Meth Rated kits.

SMC: Easy to install/extremely reliable kits, Steve is a great person to talk to about what you want. Uses steel braided lines, no cheap plastic. Negatives: Not too many pump options, system not particularly rated for Meth. Hasnt updated his web site since time began.

Coolingmist: Only seen one installed and system was never operated. Looked like cheap plastic lines but the pumps looked pretty tough.

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

You did see my data from this past weekend didn't you? I did mess up one of my C ot F temp conversions, so I'll repost it here:

Actual Data

Car: Street Ported Gotham motor with A-Spec 35R kit, and ASP Large intercooler etc etc running 10psi of boost on the wastegate spring. Varicool was set to come on at 6psi and a max out at 24psi and I was running straight water. (I'll make a post on my complete WI setup at a later time)

Track: Mid America Motorplex

Conditions: Bright direct sun.

Results:
Vari-cool off: Ambient 30C (85F) Air intake temp 54C (129F) Water Temp 97C (206F)
Vari-cool on #4 (40%): Ambient 32C (90F) Air intake temp 27C (80F) Water Temp 92C (198F)
Vari-cool on #2 (20%): Ambient 34C (93F) Air intake temp 29C (84F) Water Temp 94C (201F)
Vari-cool on #1 (10%): Ambient 34C (93F) Air intake temp 30C (86F) Water Temp 94C (201F)

I do have Datalogit data from some runs, but not necessarily the ones above, as for those I was mostly reading the numbers off the commander.

I also have more tuning to do, according to the logs my A/F's are still quite rich.

I'm going back to the track this weekend. What would you like to see with regard to more numbers?

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Also, SMC seems to have the best prices.

$499 for a c-mist 2-stage
$530 for the Alchycontrol kit (pressure controlled)
$500 for SMC (pressure controlled)

dubulup

no, my question said
your answer said
here is a customer losing power with the system...didn't find anyone making power
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=54

dubulup

times that show improvement

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

You know, most of these kits wont net any horsepower by simply bolting them on.

The power is made with the additional boost, timimg, and cooling afforded by the kits. Although the cooling is great, its not the primary power adder. The addition of one of these kits to a stock car (as in no standalone), would probably net no appreciable increase in power

BDC

So he's said, but I've yet to see any real data to substantiate that. I also find it awfully curious that the only number you can respond with after your own admission of "100's of kits sold to Rx-7's" is the one guy that helped organize and advertise your system's group buy.

... and the only person who claims to have made significant power on your kit is him, atleast from what I've seen thus far in this thread. You'd think that by now someone else would've posted given the fact that this thread has existed for nearly a week, is still on page 1 of the ever-popular Single Turbo section, and is titled, "Water Injection What is the Best Kit" so blatantly... Where's everyone else?

You know of no dyno sheets.. interesting that you say that in light of what you just said here: "Maybe you should read Jasons response. 500 + HP, coolingmist controller" Are you saying that he doesn't have a dyno sheet? Perhaps atleast you don't know about it, but I would think that if you were in the business to sell a product (as I am so I relate to this) that you'd go out of your way to capitalize on that alleged 500hp figure, splash dyno sheets all over the place (like you've splashed pictures of your software in this very thread), and use that to heavily promote your product.

Not looking to justify water/meth. We already know that straight alcohol for an engine environment is greatly superior to water/alcohol combination and water alone. Like Dubulup, what I'm looking for is numbers -- data -- track times -- anything to convince me why I should promote your product and not Julio's or someone else's. On the TurboBuick.com forum, his product is deluged with positive responses from various happy customers as well as datalogs, dyno graphs, track times, etc.

The paying customer shall decide. They have all of the power in the world.

B

BDC

Hi Gooroo,

Yep I saw your response and thus far in this thread you're the only one to give any practical data about the Coolingmist product (thank you, btw).

To everyone else,

The air intake temps are what I would expect from a water injection system. Having seen a couple of others in the past, this is the same result I would expect. I'm not saying water won't work; clearly it's high specific heat index will yield drops in ambient air temps, but like Howard already stated, it doesn't provide BTU's and does little to help with anti-knock. Alcohol, however, does on both counts. It also has a specific heat index of about 70% of that of water (speaking of both ethanol and methanol here) and has a higher latent heat of evapouration than water. Used in a combustion engine for load, it's amazing.

To use it properly and reliably however, a great deal of focus needs to be taken into every single component of the system because of alcohol's corrosivity. Julio is 100% hell-bent on making sure the system is bulletproof and reliable, hence the use of special hoses, an overkill pump that's modified internally, etc. For crying out loud, he sent me stainless steel nuts and bolts to replace the aluminum ones I had on the top of my fuel cell.

My main goal as a tuner and builder is reliability. I want to help change the horrid track record of reliability the RE has due to the lack of efficacy of pump gas. I want to do away with the necessity of race gas for anything reliably over 400rwhp, use pump gas exclusively, and have the same if not better results than race gas using pump gas and alcohol in a 3/1 ratio if not richer. I want atleast 2000cc/min of alcohol-only injection capability. The Alkycontrol system easily does this and is proven on many cars with not only track times but also datalogs, dynos, and other data. Can the Coolingmist hardware actually do this? If so, is there any data to substantiate it?

B

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I have to say that right now, on my setup with alcohol I am running at 385-390 without race gas.. This is an SMC kit.

No_Rotor_RX7

YAYYYY BDC is coming to the light! hahaha i remember the days you were anti-alcohol injection i completely agree tho, the alkycontrol kit seems by far the safest! WOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!

z-beater

A few things:

1. I have an uninstalled coolingmist 2 stage kit. I will probably install it next winter and use either my microtech to control it or purchase a seterate controller.

2. I will take dyno numbers from a non injected run and numbers from an injected run. I do not expect an increase in power. As was mentioned before I feel that most of the power is a result of tuning after the install.

3. This system was purchased for ONLY reliability sake.

4. If you would like any other data, or see any certain type of setup please let me know I would be happy to help out.

I am also using the controversial af61 so that should just make it all the more interesting.

Thanks,
Z

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

Hehe, well on a road course that could be due to a number of things...

I ran a 1:46.6 in the first morning session, and in the last afternoon session I was down to 1:43.3

Like everyone else has said, WI/AI doesn't equal more power. WI/AI = more space in which to tune, in terms of higher AFR's and more timing. In my case, I don't want the extra space in which to tune, I want the space as a buffer from running the ragged edge. I only plan on running 15-17psi of boost on pump gas running 20-30 minute sessions on a road course. I do not wish to rely on it, and tune specifcally for it. From that standpoint, my car probably isn't a good test.

BDC

I agree that water injection doesn't yield more power (actually I would say a slight loss of power in trade for a small measure of reliability given the same loads front to back), but alcohol injection most definitely yields power as well as a great measure of reliability.

B

BDC

Btw, I just got the rest of the components for my Alkcontrol setup. It'll be the first one on an FC and the second one ever on an Rx7. I'm installing them today and will hopefully have the system running by tonight. Pictures to my gallery link will follow.

B

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

My initial tests are using straight water only to keep things simple. My eventual desire is to run up to 50/50 methanol/water for the reasons you and Howard have already stated.

Many of my other goals are very similar to what you have already stated, ~400 rwhp reliably on pump gas for 20-30 minute sessions at a time. Maybe I'm mistaken, but the only potential difference I see is that I wish to supplement, not replace the fuel in the normal system. In other words, if the water/meth system isn't on for whatever reason, I still want the motor to work nominally, just not as safely. I'm not sure if that's something you are shooting for as well. It sounded to me like you were replacing too much fuel with alcohol for this to be the case?

I have three things left to do for my system:
1) Wire a RPM to 5V circuit to get a 0-5V RPM signal to the Vari-cool controller
2) Decide what the best numbers in terms of water and methanol I want and do the math to determine what the duty cycle of the pump needs to be per unit of fueling.
3) Take the duty/unit fuel number and convert the entire fuel map from the PFC to a water/methanol map and load it into the Varicool.

Once complete I will have a secondary speed/density control system, albeit with lower resolution and precision than the PFC of course.

Are there holes in this plan?

coolingmist

Ok, then dont buy one.

coolingmist

Oh and your not bias.

Again, I have dyno sheets on my site for an STI, I have none from an Rx-7. How many times do I need to tell you?


Guess what? We are ALLOWED TO PROMOTE OUR product on this site. Our products are carried by this forum in the store. I dont know if Jason has a dyno sheet, frankly I dont care. If he has one maybe he will post it. But then again, you will not believe him if he does. I dont need to promote the 500 HP figure, we have sold our kits to every kind of vehicle, vehicles making from 100 HP to 1600 +. Our products reputation stand by itself, people know us and our products.




Run water, alcohol, what ever you want. Its the customers choice.