Water Injection What Is The Best Kit
 

Hi Im Looking For A Water Injection Kit Wondered Which One Is The Best To Use And The Best Place To Buy It.
Thanks

thats a personal decision you have to make from yourself, after research.

i have an older cooling mist kit and am very happy with it. they have a new kit with electronic controler. i think they have maping capabilitys now

The new controller has a 1D map, with the ability to turn on/off on a second input. So you can adjust the amount of water going in based on boost or RPM or any other 5V input (Injector duty, etc.) and turn it on or off with the other one. It's a fairly slick system, although I personally would like it to be able to use both inputs as a map reference.

I'm going to post a writeup of my WI system soon, I just finished the install last night. :D

Your own country makes one of the best. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

man I sure would like to see a thread with water vs. alchohol injection.

**goes searching**

THANKS PEOPLE
i already no about aquamist just wondered who else made kits before i go ahead.

Water is supposed to dissapate heat 6 times better than alcohol. At least that is what the aquamist website had to say about it. :)

the benefits of AI (Auxiliary Injection) IMO are vastly under-appreciated as to our turbo'd rotaries.

if ever there was an engine that could benefit from injected cooling the rotary is at the top of the list. it's all about excess HEAT.

it can also be about turning up the boost and advancing the timing.

if you do water you will lower your egts and promote engine durability.

if you do alcohol (as in methanol, ethanol or isopropyl) you can also turn up the boost, advance the timing just like you are running really expensive racegas. the only difference is that the system uses the alcohol ONLY when you are under boost so you use it sparingly. i have a 4 gallon fuel cell for my methanol and it will last thru many tanks of gas.

do not discount the fact that alcohol really cools. i have friend who runs an 800 rwhp 2 rotor drag car on 100% methanol on high (can't say how high) boost and doesn't even use an intercooler! you can't put your hand on his intake manifold it is so cold after a quick trip down the quarter mile.

rookies get caught up in the fact that water has more latent heat absorption than alcohol but water doesn't provide BTUs. you just run MORE (v water) alcohol to get the proper cooling and you also get much higher octane as alcohol burns smoothly... so you get to bump the timing another 3 plus degrees and run 25 psi boost instead of 15.

i am not knocking water. it is fine for cooling your motor. you will generally pay a few hp for the trade. water can be an excellent answer for many. it just depends on your objectives.

for those who are willing to make an investment of their time to properly understand AI i recommend Turbobuick.com. go to the Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech section of the site. the section is 64 pages of threads! 2527 threads going back to mid 2001.

as you recall the GN Buicks came turbocharged and the section deals with all of the problems, solutions that evolved... it starts w water and ends w alcohol BTW.

the typical 231 cu inch pushrod, 2 valve buick running on pump gas and methanol weighs 3850 pounds w driver and runs a 134 mph quarter.

i will let the site speak for itself as to conclusions re what to run and whom to deal with. in addition to the vast amount of acquired knowledge on the site there are links to a few key technical articles that are valuable.

i have just completed the installation of my AI system and i am really happy as to how it turned out.

my Jaz 4 gallon fuel cell is in the spare tire well as far to the rear and pass side of the car for weight distribution. i removed the center pedestal in the tire well to lower the cell another 3 inches. the braided stainless steel line runs forward from the cell thru the tirewell wall, turns toward the driver's side of the car along the rear rollbar and passes forward between the floor and the rear suspension crossmember to link up w the pump. the pump is located under the black plastic panel just infront of the driver's side rear axle. a perfect fit. the output line of the pump fits in the fuel line clips and runs forward to the elbow.
my control box is on top of the steeringwheel bezel w the J&S knock sensor LED dial and the low methanol light and pump light are located in the mounting bracket. the pump control box w a relay and the other system adjustment box are both in the pass side compartment behind the seat w my battery. i run a short wire over the driveshaft hump thru the unused ABS sensor hole in the driver's side compartment to the pump. the fuel cell vents into the water drain line from the sunroof pass side.

no pix... perhaps later.

i will be firing my motor today and will report as i do my tuning.

howard coleman

I look forward to hearing more!! 25psi w/ aggressive timing on a TT set-up, I really look forward to reading more!

I am also very interested in your results. I have read through countless threads on Water/Alcohol incjection.

Howard and I have been working together on this for the past few months. I'm installing the same system he is (basically) but in my FC. I am almost finished with mine; the cell and pressure lines should show up around this coming Tuesday or so.

This system is the best there is, bar none. It will revolutionize not only the power output our engines are capable of on pump gas but also the (lack of) reliability record we've got.

Here's the link to the pictures of my installation: http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/BDC/AlkyControl/

B

Im with howard all the way on this one. Not only on the FD have i been using this but also a freind on a former NA FB which now runs 16 psi on a high comp motor.

I dont think the aquamist kit will alow you to run high precentage of alch ( due to its development )

Most of the other kits are very similar. IMHO i would aviod barbed fittings where possible due to the reliablilty factor. The coolingmist controller is fine as long as you under stand what it will and wont do for you.. I monitors the vac line and will adjust to vacum. it will also enable you to use a 0-5 volt input. So you could connect it to a egt or map senosor or tps etc.
As far as i know the aquamist kit is the only one which will mimic the inj duty. ( but others are working on that )

It has been suggested to use the Megasquirt ecu to control the injection but i dont know about this approach.

After using a controller i would never go back to a dumb system. Both have there draw backs tho.


Scott

I agree, Scott, on having a controller-based system. These things need to be done with respect to the changes in engine loads. Having "single" or "dual" stage systems have a benefit in and of themselves but only at a given load point -- they're too much at lower loads and too little at higher. The AlkyControl system is one of the few that is load-based, taking a 5V MAP sensor input as its load determinate, that will inject alcohol based on those load changes as well as what the user has input. If we're talking about replacing upwards of 30% of our standard fuel injection with alcohol then we need a system that is capable of not only being fine-tunable according to changing loads but also have the capability of injecting large amounts in at higher loads. I just don't see these other systems doing these two things with precision control. This kind of stuff, for our needs atleast, literally need to be secondary fuel systems.

B

BDC,

You have hit the nail on the head more than you think.

I am looking forward in development to the next level. I have concidered a motec or microtech ecu and using the additional injector drivers with meth injectors and a seperate fuel pump for full mapability.

I can see the temp correction as a limiting factor with the current set ups.

I am looking forward to howards system up and running. After using meth i cant see any point in using water anymore. It would be really cool to get a group of like minded people together and pass on datalogs and idea etc to develop this.

oops back to your thread.....

Scott

hey bdc your links to the pics is down and i'd love to see that setup. Also do you guys have some links to the setups yall recommend? have you guys ever heard of this one and does it work well. http://www.smcenterprises.com/alcohol.htm

We have the ability to do anything with the 0-5V input and the boost input. We could map it any way we want. One of the major advantages of the varicool unit is the advanced software feature. We developed this controller with the necessary hardware to support what we need to do in the future. we write the software in house, meaning we could make your wishes become a reality.

we get vague requests all the time "I want a 2d map referencing maf vs boost". Or something of that effect.

What we need a specifics of what you want. Actual details. Until someone steps up to the plate and drives home the details of what is needed, our controller will not have that ability. We could sit back and guess and do some cool things, but at the end of the day we want this controller to be yours, with your ideas. Many of the changes in our version 2 flash have incorporated some really cool things such as lighting the led in solid green when the pump is energized and a software "knob locking" feature. We can do many more things but need details.

If its something that a wide group of people can use, IE something we can do universal...we can easily do this and offer it with our controller. Previous owners will need a re-flash.

FYI, we have a new attachment now that can allow for temperature correcting. It hooks up to the AUX input, we can adjust the flow based on a 1 or 2 map based on intake temps and boost.

I will emphasize we have the most advanced progressive methanol injection controller on the market. Nothing compares to it.

The thing i like about the coolingmist controller is the fact i can adjust it more than the others. It also has the added bonus of being able to log boost and WI related info to your pc in real time. This facility has been invaluable with the other car we run this on. load vs boost is really the next step. I have tried to figure this but so far have failed. In a ideal world we could get a 0-5volt supply from the injector driver but in the real world this is not possible.
I did how eva manage to find a guy on the fc datalogit forum who had an idea of how to achieve this.
I am more than happy to help develope ideas with other and help others.

David ive not spoken to you in a while. The kit is running well. I am getting to grips with everything now. I am collecting as much data as i can from the system so i can be more objective later on. A pump on light would be a nice idea.

Scott

LOL. Im very keen on the temp correction thing. do you have any info you could send me.

Hi Scott,

good to hear from you. If you want the light on feature, we can flash the system for you. You would need to send the unit back to us to reflash, there would be a small fee to reflash. If you want the temp correction sender, you can tell me how you want this to work and I can how we can make your controller do this, or develop the application/controller for those that want to use the feature.

Also, we have a major, major, major addition to the controller that will be released shortly. I would recommend not having your controller reflashed until this is released. I cant tell you what it is yet, all I can say is that just like our controller its an industry first and something that no other controller will have.

Thanks!

Is there a benefit to using a pump controller as oposed to a programable injector, like this?

Yeah.

You can adjust the amount you inject according to boost for example. So there will be a better tune obtained from it because you wont have to suffer as much in the over saturation areas.

Its a bit like having 2 differant injectors ina fuel system, one for high and one for low as aposed to a fuel map for adjustment

Scott

Both styles work, they just do it in a different way.

The nice thing about our unit, we could easily pulse an injector or solenoid by just changing the software and reflashing. It would cost us nothing other than time. It becomes more expensive to the customer to pulse a solenoid (due to the cost of the solenoid) so we chose this option.

If we ever feel that customers want the vari-cool in pulsing the solenoid instead of the pump we would consider offering that style as well.

thanks!

- at the risk of restating from this and other threads based on my understanding-
The perfect controller would be able to maintain methanol/alky as a defined (but adjustable) percentage of fuel flow under all conditions. To aid in tuning simplicity having the software calculate and display in alky/fuel ratio would make tuning easier because no gauge can tell us what percent alky we are squirting but that is of vital importance in how far to push. It would have to use the same methods as the ECU to determine this flow rate to include MAP, Intake Temp, TPS, ?? and know the alky and fuel injector sizing. This may be possible to piggyback off of the injector signal ala Aquamist, but pri/sec transition and varying fuel pressure may play havoc on that setup. To keep cost down, the controller could get MAP from the ECU's sensor but calibration would need to be user definable for those of us that have aftermarket MAP sensors. Another bonus would be the capability to adjust the alky/fuel ratio by boost, ie a definable correction curve like this:
10lbs boost = 10% alky per fuel
15lbs = 20% alky
20lbs = 30% alky
with the software establishing a curve between the defined data points
Essentially it would have to be a piggyback ECU with software that allowed just about everything to be user definable in DATALOGIT/Haltech fasion. Of course, that means user screw-up-able as well.
That turned out kinda long - does it make sense?

Chris - not squirting yet, but will be

To tune alky you will need no more than a good wibe band, knock sensor, egt gauge.

The beauty of fuels are they can be tuned with a wideband. as long as the alky fuel curve is a close match then you can compensate in the fuel map (ecu) to get a perfect match.
A controller can give you this close match unlike the staged (dumb system) The surflo pump will alow you to run alsorts of chemicals that the aquamist one cant.

I tune my alk as a blended fuel so i get a good tune. Drop AFR as a measurment and revert fo Lambda for tuning. You can go leaner and more advanced with alk.

Scott