Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

you can get lost in la la land w all the gee if we did it this ways but the important pieces that make up a professional AI system are there for the asking today.

sure, if there was a way to translate total injector duty cycle it might be a slight advantage over going from the map sensor. slight.

as Scott says... you need a user defined progressive controller and it needs to be bulletproof and repeatable. you then can do fine tuning either w the pump gas or alcohol.

IMO a knock sensor, digital loggable egt and AFR are not options if you plan to do any proper tuning.

the system needs to be bulletproof. if it takes a dive you might fry your motor if you have "tuned up" for alcohol.

stainless steel lines, brass fittings and a major amp capacity for the controller are more important than having 500 curves for delivery.

if your AI is going to be 100% alcohol....methanol for instance, i strongly recommend you carefully examine Alkycontrol.com's system.

SMC is an offshoot of Jason Cramer. Jason is a TurboBuick racer off the highest order. he runs a 3610 pound stock block 231 cu inch GN and has turned 9.83 seconds at 136 mph.

on PUMP GAS and methanol.

Jason/SMC offers an alcohol kit among many other well designed engine items for the turbo Buick. you could do alot worse than deal w him.

that said Julio Don/Alkycontrol sells nothing but alcohol systems, over 1300 and counting. he is an Electrical Engineer, designed his progressive controller and has been selling them for a number of YEARS. there are some major tricks as to the controller as it has to deal w fairly high amps and not blow a fuse or overheat. you don't want either. no alcohol, no engine.

Julio, like Jason, is a racer. his 3840 pound TurboTransam (turbo buick v6) has run 10.3 at 134 mph. just what rear wheel hp from 231 cu inches is that? a daily driver!

i spent alot of time looking in to AI and i am sold on alcohol and Alkycontrol. i especially like the fact that Julio offers service in the league of Ray Crowe whom i consider to be the best service guy i have ever dealt with. just call Julio and you will be able to shift gears from the what ifs to getting something that will work right on your car.

i again recommend you visit TurboBuick.com as it is probably the best exposition of the evolution of AI. if you spend some time on the Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech section all your questions will be answered and you will know whom to deal with.

if you do want to run water Coolingmist or Snowperformance are 2 legitimate players.

howard coleman

coolingmist

Our controller can handle 30 amps, we have full stainless steel systems. Im not attacking anything you said, im I am simple stating this for anyone that reads so they dont get the wrong idea.


I think its great that there are alternatives and alot of choices. I want to comment that 1300 kits total sold is absolutely nothing. While I dont necessarily think that the number of kits a company sells should be the customers main reason for buying a kit, Alkycontrol has been in business for 3-4 years, 1300 kits means 3-400 kits a year. That is absolutely nothing.

Our kits are 100% methanol compatible. Infact, we have the ONLY pump made by shurflo (the same manufacturer of Alkycontrols pump) that is designed for methanol/water injection. I understand that they attempt to modify the pump, thats great, but our kits run methanol out of the box (if thats what the user wants).

Again, dont take this post the wrong way. I want to clarify for anyone because your post was a little mis-leading interms of running methanol.

David

coolingmist

If you guys are interested in a group buy on our products let me know and I will talk to jason. He ran one a few months ago that worked out real well. If there is enough demand I'll ask him if he wants to run one.

Thanks!

Alkycontrol

For how long? There is no heat sink to sustain it.

Hows this sound.. not one single pump failure of any kind since Sept last year.

99.9 percent on all controllers MFG'd since day one in business.. no upgrades needed.


Quality not quantity

coolingmist

It is designed to run upto 30 amps, long term. This was part of the design, you can run a 30 amp device all day long if you wish without any damaging of the system.

Our pumps pull a max of 10 amps anyway.


Im happy for you that you have not had any pump failures since september. I am not questioning your systems, frankly I dont care about them. Im simply pointing out the mis-statements about our systems.

I have NO problem with you or anyone else talking about the features of your controllers, but when someone makes a statement about ours that is false, we will respond.

Obviously our controller went through extensive testing and Q/A, so please dont make mis-informed statements like the "heatsink" statement.

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

interesting info. So both of them do relatively the same thing? maybe both should post websites so we could see both of your sites, info, pros and cons and then make a descision based on that. I've descided I want to go alcohol and would like a system that I can plug in and have my tuner tune it for me and i just let it do it's thing. Are both system able to run alcohol?

coolingmist

OUr website is www.coolingmist.com, our controller kits are here:

http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedispl...key=controller

You can also purchase our kits at rx7store.net, Jason stocks everything we have.

thanks!

Alkycontrol

If you need to make merits on your system, dont bring my name or what I do into it. Becuase there will be backlash.

When you drive a 30 amp load, there is heat generated. Look at a simple car stereo amplifier that has a 30 amp fuse on its input. It will not fit in the palm of your hand. Whether you have a driver rated at 30 amps and can run at 30 amps.. this is misleading. Like having a 800 HP motor and volkswagen tires. So your statement of being able to run a 30 amp load is false. Becuase there is not enough heat sink to dissipate that kind of heat. And I sincerly hope the "30 amp driver" wasnt mounted directly on the board using the PCB to dissipate the heat, that will lead to cold solder connections. There is another controller on the market that thought it was a neat idea to do so...

The issue of what and how I do to the pump.. there is a reason that is done. Whether the pumps your getting back for warranty pose an issue to you or not, that is your/customer issue. I have never had to send a pump to Shurflo for warranty.. So just like BG modifies Holley Carbs.. I modify the pumps to suit my specific needs.

You like apples.. my pumps are guaranteed unconditionally for one year using straight methanol.. hows them apples

Those that want to run water/alcohol/mixes/etc.. non-issue as well.

Good luck with your business.

coolingmist

Again, I can care less about your business, as I pointed out I was correcting the mis-conceptions that were stated by your customer

Ya think?


You are a funny guy. Our controller can up to 30 amps, but as I pointed out, our pump draws up to 10 Amps, so its a non issue. I stand by my statement.

We have shurflo make us a pump to fit our needs, we are to busy to be sitting in our garage modifiying pumps.

If you want to talk about your controller thats one thing, but if You want to make false statements about our systems and controllers, you are barking up the wrong tree.

dubulup

you both are going to look bad at the end of this...I'd cut the chit-chat. OR break out the rulers

Alkycontrol

Your more than welcome to come by our place of Retail business

Alkycontrol
8401-a 9th Street N.
St.Petersburg FL 33702

Come check out our showroom


Lets see.. those little Shurflo pumps come with a thermal limiter built in per your specs rite..

Alkycontrol

Its ok.. I know where I sit. Search the internet.. go to car forums.. see whos going fast on what system's'.. you'll have your answer.

Here's the question of the day..

Whats the warranty on a pump run on straight methanol?

coolingmist

what is your beef with us? I am very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very happy for you.

Our systems and controller stands on its own. Bottom line we have the only shurflo pump designed for meth/water injection from shurfo. We also have the worlds most advanced progressive methanol injection controller.

I'll stop buy your showroom next time I drive through Florida and say hi.

David

showoff

i have solution for both of u.. how bout you both donate 1 of your systems to me and install each system on my quest for 500rwhp+ without race gas... ill give a full write-up of each and let the forum decide sounds like a plan 2 me

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

Ok, here's what I want to do:

Run the boost reference.
Run a 0-5V line to the aux input with a RPM signal.
Have a table with values (in % of pump flow or lbs/hr)

Here's an example table.



I would generate that table myself manually by looking up the fuel injection numbers from my ECU, calculating the % water I want injected at that boost/rpm level and rescaling them to fit whatever # of rows/columns I have available on the Vari-cool.


Also, I do like the option of the LED going on when the controller goes on, just as a check. It would also be nice if you made a small display that connects to the serial output port and displays the % duty on the pump at that time.


Actual Data

Just as a reference data point, I ran my setup for the first time this weekend at the track. I made back to back runs, one with, and one without the controller running.

Car: Street Ported Gotham motor with A-Spec 35R kit, and ASP Large intercooler etc etc running 10psi of boost on the wastegate spring. Varicool was set to come on at 6psi and a max out at 24psi and I was running straight water. (I'll make a post on my complete WI setup at a later time)

Vari-cool off: Ambient 30C (85F) Air intake temp 54C (129F) Water Temp 97C (206F)
Vari-cool on #4 (40%): Ambient 32C (90F) Air intake temp 27C (129F) Water Temp 92C (198F)
Vari-cool on #2 (20%): Ambient 34C (93F) Air intake temp 29C (129F) Water Temp 94C (201F)
Vari-cool on #1 (10%): Ambient 34C (93F) Air intake temp 30C (129F) Water Temp 94C (201F)

Yep, below ambient air intake temps on the stock location sensor! Success!

I used about 1 gallon of water in 20 minutes on #4, 2 quarts on #2, and 1 quart on #1.

coolingmist

I am glad you like your system and that its working for you. Our systems were designed on the Rx-7 (94) and CA-91 octain.

As far as your request goes, the contraints of the system are as follows:

0-5V input
Boost input.

any other kind of input will not work. RPM does NOT work off of a 0-5V. If the RPM signal in your car is a 0-5 ( I would be shocked) we could easily do that.

Having said that, if you get a middleware to convert your RPM to a 0-5, what you want can be done.

David

BDC

I have a question... is there anyone here making any significantly large numbers on water injection and pump gas? I don't think anyone has asked this yet.

B

GooRoo

iTrader: (4)

That is what I plan on doing... A small circuit to convert the RPM to 0-5V.

When I get that completed I will let you know. It might be awhile because the system is working well for now

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i have always wanted a combo of boost (which we have) and fuel injector duty cycle.

after peak torque our motors use 15 to 25% less fuel and it would be nice to be able to re-tailor (i e reduce) the delivery after peak torque at peak limited boost...

yes i know the aquamist keys off primary or secondary injector signal but that does not provide a copy of the IDC due to the interplay between primary and secondary. i may just tune the pump side of the delivery.

howard coleman

Jason

iTrader: (5)

Our shop car runs a half bridge, T-78, coolingmist and 22 lbs of boost on pump gas. I dont remember the exact number but it was over 500HP. That is running almost all alky.

Jason

Alkycontrol

+1

I dont know anyone.. Especially on a small displacement engine.. Usually 14 second 1/4 mile cars

Here's some alky action..


http://media.ams-evo8.com/videos/amsevo/923run.wmv

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i have referred to the turbobuick.com site as a central resource on AI knowledge. over 64 pages of threads in the Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech section.

Julio has been an active participant under the name "Razor" w over 6500 posts. most relate to tuning and setup as well as the nuts and bolts..

his 3850 pound street V6 231 cu in pushrod 2 valve is doing 134 which puts the motor somewhere around 625 rwhp. on 93 octane pump gas and methanol. stock block. grocery getter.

anyway, among the 6200 jewels from Julio i present the following link which is a sticky on the site and deals w tuning alcohol. while it deals w the V6 the fundamentals relate directly to our beloved and wicked rotaries.

enjoy:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=147348

howard coleman

coolingmist

I thought I would show everyone our soon to be release hand held Vari-Cool commander.



In late 2005 Coolingmist made an announcement that set the standard for the methanol injection industry. We annouced our prototype for the Vari-Cool Coolingmist Controller. Immediately it was a hit, infact in our first 4 months of release we sold our target for the first year of release!

Progressive controllers give you a start and a max pressure setting. This means you can set the start and the max and the injector will spray more as you get more boost. This is a huge step forward from standard "on/off" boost switch based kits, but it leaves a lot to be desired. Coolingmist Innovates. Its what drives us, its what seperates us from all the other companies that sell progressive controllers. When designing the controller we had several goals in mind.


----------------------------------------------------------
Have more features than any other progressive controller
Be more flexible than any other controller
Have more features than any other controller.
Make it affordable.
Innovate it.
-----------------------------------------------------------



If you look at all the Progressive controllers on the market and then look at ours you will see that the other controllers are basically the same, with few differences. Coolingmist changed this. Some key differences in the vari-cool controller

------------------------------------------------------------
1-30 psi start, 1-30 psi max (most controllers have limited range)
easy to use color coded *****, can be turned by your hand.
The only digital controller on the market with a tuning **** to change the flow rate.

The only progressive controller with a software package and the ability to change all the pump settings including duty cycle, methanol maps, curve, etc.

Datalogging abilities


The only digital progressive controller on the market with both a 0-5V input and a boost port.

Ability to run in 2d mode off 0-5 and boost.
Easy to install with only 4 wires
Ability to tune the EXACT amount of meth/water you need. No other progressive controller can make that claim. This is because our controller can be programmed using your PC to change the flow rate (as well as using the 1-10 ****)
-------------------------------------------------------------------




We are now proud to annouce that the Vari-Cool Commander will be available soon. This is designed for those that want the convenience and portable tunability as well as the ability to monitor vital system functions.



Pictures of our prototype are below. Keep in mind that there are many features of this product that we cant elaborate on. Also, this is not a complete tour. We have many features that have yet to be added and updated. Features:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ability to tune the controller from your car using the commander.
Ability to view vital system functions.
Dataloging and recording ability
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Functions that you can view are as follows:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Boost Pressure
Water Pressure
Gallons Per Hour
Intake Temps
Pump Output %
EGT
Min **** Setting
Max **** Setting
Tune **** Setting
----More to be announced-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Things you can Modify from the Commander:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Min Pump Pressure
Max Pump Pressure
Lock MIN
Lock MAX
Lock Tune
Pump Algorithms/Maps/curve
Set 2d Mode
----More to be announced-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




Datalogging is one of the nicest feature. The software includes a copy of SQL CE that will hold record your data. The datalogging feature is always on, even when you are in view mode your data is being saved to the database 4 times a second. You can also view this in real time, save a range of datalogs to a file to view later, etc. The system is designed to constantly data log so you dont have to manually set a record button. It will record approx 9000 data events (rougly 1 hour of data), after that 9000 period it will delete the data automatically (other than the data you saved to a file). You can choose as many or as little fields as you want. You can choose the GALLONS PER HOUR and BOOST or all items, its up to you. Things you can Datalog from the Commander:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Boost Pressure
Water Pressure
Gallons Per Hour
Intake Temps
Pump Output %
Voltage
EGT
Min **** Setting
Max **** Setting
Tune **** Setting
----More to be announced-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------




International Support. The Vari-Cool Commander has the ability to allow you to choose the following:

BAR or PSI
Farenheight or Celsius
Gallons Per Hour or CC/Minute


NOTE: EGT, IAT can be done by purchasing our sender. You can only do one or the other. Voltage can be datalogged from the AUX input.


-------------------------------------------------------------------






NOTE: this is the beta version and prototype. The release version will have features that this version does not have. Also, the look, feel and functionality of the production unit will improved.

This pic show the commander attached to the controller. The screen you see is the first screen. Its a digital representation of the controller itself. The Min, Max and Tune ***** are in the same position as on the controller.

NOTE: This picture shows the numbers in BAR.


This pic show the commander attached to the controller as well. this one shows it in PSI and the controller is LOCKED. IF you look close, the blue images next to the numbers show its locked. That means if you turn the ***** on the controller it will not change the flow until you unlock them from the controller

The screen you see is the first screen. Its a digital representation of the controller itself. The Min, Max and Tune ***** are in the same position as on the controller.

NOTE: This picture shows the numbers in BAR.







NOTE: This picture shows the numbers in PSI. This screen shows you your boost, intake temp, gallons per hour and water pressure (again, if you choose BAR, Celsius or CC/M for flow that will show up). this screen is the screen the user looks at if you want to get the current status of the main params. Ignore the Intake temp "1" as I have not the sender attached to it for the pic. Notice the color difference? The user can change the colors of allt he different backgrounds/fonts and headers. Throughout this demo will will show you some different color combos.









NOTE: This is what we call the custom screen. The user can choose ANY two of the params to display. This makes it flexible so you get large fonts but get to see only the params that are most important to you. Again, notice the color change?





NOTE:This is the advanced configuration screen for user display values.





NOTE: This is what we call the datalog screen. In this example we choose boost, motoroutput %, Water Pressure and Flow (note the flow is CC/M and the Pressure is BAR for this example).





NOTE: this is the config screen where you setup dataloging..




NOTE: this is the screen where you change the params of the controller. (pump pressure, maps, min/max *****, tune ****, etc)..

cmack133

iTrader: (1)

Coolingmist - Is this something that will be sold as software for a handheld plus the analog controller and system or will it only come as a complete plug-in kit? Will you be able to purchase the controller and commander seperate from a complete system?

Everybody else - Has anybody figured an easy/cheap way to convert RPM to 0-5V?

coolingmist

Software will be sold individually, so if you have a controller you can buy the software to run on your handheld (windows CE or Mobile 5.0). Also, we will have an edition that can run on some of the new phones (smart phones)

You can also buy the handheld from us with the software pre-loaded.
Lastly, you can purchase the tuning kit that will have the controller, handheld and everything together.


Our version I controller that you have will need a reflash to use some of the functionality. 99.5 percent you can use, the ability to LOCK min, max and TUNE as well as lighting a solid green light on the controller itself would need a new flash.

Hope that makes sense. Pricing is not available yet.

David