your question would be better directed here
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fd-transmission-solution-500-hp-905977/

 

Howard,
Any ETA on the dyno dates?

 

i am close to firing it up. barring any major un-anticipated setbacks i should be firing the motor w the GT4094r this weekend. i might get on the dyno next week.

i received a call from Brian Caine last night that blew me away.

Brian and i started down the AI path together a few years ago. Brian has an FC and has always been underwhelmed w the stock mounted (small heatsoaking) intercooler. we both run methanol as AI injectant w no water. unlike water, you can inject as much methanol as you want given it is a fuel but possesses 3.29 times the cooling of pump OR racegas along w a projected octane of 130. Brian just decided to not run an intercooler.

yesterday he called to tell me he ran 27 psi (not a typo) on pump gas and meth! his intake air temp at 27 psi in over 85 degree weather was 123 F!

this is an amazing, perhaps ground-breaking performance.

i would really like to have had Brian running a Power FC so we could measure his knock but all appears well so far w the motor. details found in his thread located within the AI section.

Brian runs 2 M10 nozzles w his (excellent) Alkycontrol system. that's 1260 CC/Min. i will be running 2000 CC/Min w my FJO HD system. Brian's results indicate i will really be able to crank on the boost to fully evaluate the 4 turbos. i will not be running any racegas. my deal is finding out how far you can go w $3.00 a gallon 93 octane pump and meth.

what Brian accomplished, and without an intercooler, has HUGE implications.

hc

 

I like where this is going

 

It's closer to 1600cc/min with system pressures up past 160psi. That's a lot of chamber cooling and latent heat in the charge pipe!

Also, the ability of this alcohol injection as a charge cooler suggests that we can run substantially smaller intercoolers and use them more for low boost applications while they share the overall load with the alcohol, provided the alcohol is injected well up stream far from the throttle. It means we may not have to stick intercoolers the size of brick walls in the front air dams, blocking the radiator.

B

 

"closer to 1600cc/min with system pressures up past 160psi."

flow increases w the square root of the pressure change.

sq root of 60% is 7.74

1200 X 1.0774 is 1292 CC/Min

plus you do have to deduct for the one way valves...

not knocking anything here, actually pointing out you did something sensational w less alcohol than you might be thinking.

howard

 

Square root of 1.6 (IOW, 160%) is 1.265. 1200 * 1.265 = 1518.

 

That's what I've got, too.

New Flow Rate (cc/min) = Old Flow Rate (cc/min) x ( SqRt of [New Pressure % Old Pressure] )

Where Old Flow Rate = 1260cc (assuming both nozzles are rated at 630cc/min (10gph)

Square root of 160 (new pressure) DIV 100 (old pressure) = 1.2649

New Flow rate = 1.2649 * 1260 = ~1593cc/min.

B

 

BDC,
Can you elaborate on your comment I quoted below?

I have been considering a basic AEM add-on system that integrates with my AEM ECU. In the installation instructions (link below) it advises that the water/alcohol injector should be placed after the intercooler, 6-8" from the throttle body.

Are you giving up some of the alcohol's stabilizing benefit in the combustion chamber for a cooler air intake charge? Any thoughts on the tradeoff?


http://www.aemelectronics.com/Images...%2030-3000.pdf

P. 6 Nozzle Mounting
Select the location where the nozzle will be installed. Nozzle must be mounted before the
throttle plate. Nozzle should also be mounted after the MAF sensor if present. Nozzle must also
be mounted after any intercoolers. In most instances, mounting the nozzle 6-8” ahead of the
throttle body provides an excellent combination of air charge cooling and combustion control.

 

Perhaps for water, in fact I would say "yes" for water being as close to the throttle/intake manifold/surge plenum as possible for the sake of trying to keep as much of it in atomized form. I'll explain further below this opinion.

I originally thought this was the case but it's not at all.

My guess is this is a set of generic installation instructions. In my experience, I don't think water and alcohol should be treated the same and that applies to how a system that utilizes either as well. Because of the differences in these two fluids, I really don't like the idea of doing a mixture of alcohol and water and I don't like systems that use rather half-assed approaches at trying to truly utilize the benefits of both fluids. It seems to me that a system either needs to be designed for 100% water or 100% alcohol; each system describing exactly the mode of action and function of either fluid and how it's to properly be used.

First off, aside from pre-turbo water injection, I don't think that water is going to really work terribly well as a charge cooler even though it has a massively high latent heat of vapourization. It might augment a large intercooler but I think only to a marginal degree. My experience has shown me that pre-throttle WI won't do much for charge temps although pre-turbo will technically make the compressor more efficient by stealing heat out of the compression action of the compressor itself, resulting in a lower discharge temperature. That's my take on that. Aside from aforementioned benefits of pre-turbo injection, I still strongly hold to the notion that water injection's glory shines in getting as much water, in atomized form, to the combustion chambers where it can perform its job there. That's where it's high specific heat and latent heat come into play, I think, by staving off knock in two ways: A good 'ol fashioned chamber coolant (pound per pound about 7-9 times better than gasoline IIRC the comparative properties of the two) as well as slowing the laminar burn velocity of the flamefront. This is why I say mount a water-only injector as close to the throttle as possible on a pump-pressurized setup. For siphon/pneumatic low pressure, it'd have to be pre-turbo.

Alcohols, on the other hand, will flash and perform a cooling effect on the intake charge via its high latent heat (methyl alcohol having the highest latent heat w/ lowest flash point). My experience has shown me that the alcohol must be injected as far away as possible I'm guessing to allow it to fully vapourize into a gas and perform its charge cooling function as well as to allow it to properly work in the chamber. If you check out the hot-air pipe on my "What Intercooler?" thread, you'll notice a brass plug at the end of the pipe just aft of the throttle body adapter inlet. There's also one 180* opposite on the bottom of the pipe that might not be visible. That's where I originally had both alcohol nozzles when I started fiddling with the hot-air experiment. On my first 3rd gear run, at 14lbs of boost, the air intake temps shot straight upwards to 155*F and the motor became rattling like a can with marbles in it. I tried it several times with the same result. This was also on a cooler day in December in Texas. I think it was in the mid 60*F's that night. When I chopped the pipe in half and moved the nozzles upstream, suddenly the whole thing came alive and worked. At the same boost, same conditions, the air intake temperatures (as measured at the throttle body inlet, btw) were about 10* below ambient (IIRC) and the engine didn't rattle or knock at all. All of the other subsequent tests eventually led the setup to 24psi with acceptable IAT's and still no noticeable engine rattle. The only thing I can conclude is that the alcohol has to have time to flash so it's in pure vapour form by the time it gets to the chamber.

The other mode of action of the alcohols is the slower and much more stable burn rate of the flamefront as well as a cooler output temperature on said flame. But, I think it must work in a hotter chamber environment with said alcohol in vapour form and not in atomized form if that makes sense.

That's my take on all that. If anybody has any input on all that, I'm all ears.

B

 

That's really interesting, Brian! Thanks for the information!

Do you have any plans to take the car to a dyno? At 24psi, I have to assume you are 600+ to the wheels.

 

I will soon. The last I ran it was 27psi and that was two days ago. I still think power is between 485 and 525 but the dyno only knows!

B

 

very interesting. so then placing one nozzle by the throttle body and another farther away made such a change? btw what temperature sensor are you using? i have the stock tii one on my microtech, which idk if its anygood.

 

Moving both of them away from in front of the throttle to well up-stream made it all work.

The air temperature sensor I use is the one that came with the Haltech E6K which is a basic GM type.

B

 

So B, are you using pre-turbo injection.

 

No, he's talking about how pre-turbo water is good, but where meth has corrosive properties, you can't run it pre-turbo (well, it's not a good idea anyways).

I'm pretty sure his nozzles aren't pre-turbo for a reason like that anyways from what I can remember.

 

No pre-turbo injection. I believe in it with water but am undecided on alcohol. I tend to think it won't have the positive effects water will.

My two injectors are on the hot-air pipe well upstream of the throttle body. You can see them in the attached image.

B

 

I just lost my post thanks to our charming work internet.

Thinking about your vaporisation problem pre & post changed positions. Did you monitor AFRs carefully with the initial setup? Given that port injected secondary/tertiary meth injected cars still receive the benefits of stable combustion afforded by the fuels in combination, I believe your problem with the original setup may have been sensing based rather than in the effect of the methanol achieving a vapour state before the throttle or otherwise. If the IAT sensor was not being hit with any of the atomised meth stream ( which would probably give a false reading anyway) as indicated by still high temps, the ecu effectively has no way of determining the mass flow effectively to a corresponding map point & temp compensation as the intake charge would have been cooling & condensing in the manifold/chamber & drawing more air in, but so far as the ecu is concerned the engine is running on hot less dense air @ set pressure & injecting less fuel accordingly. So you could well have been running significantly leaner than intended which could no doubt cause the knock you experienced?

 

the car has been rapidly heading towards the dyno since i returned from wyoming. here are a few pics.

after getting filled w coolant and filling the meth tank it will be time to turn the key. probably today.

current plan is to dyno it first w the GT4094r so we can visit lots of cells on the map/log. the 4094 is the largest sized turbo so i am happy everything fits. this is really the first time i have had a chance to see the whole manifold package in place and i am breathing easier.

notice the direct shot into the custom designed Pettit intercooler. Magnecor 10 MM wires. BOV is located on the IC and does not get in the way of changing the plugs.




i will work something out (probably alum tube) to join the filter and turbo... the low restriction (9 X 7) filter will draw outside air. notice no little analog gauge sticking out of the fuel pressure regulator. i actually want to know my fuel pressure at 8000 rpm and the gauge is a little hard to read from the driver's seat. i would rather have my pressure readings in each of the 400 Datalogit cells. no guessing on fuel pump/filter/regulator works for me. so simple and all you need is a sensor.



the compressor is close but does not touch the fender. the motor is properly held from rocking by the Garfinkle brace.




i really couldn't have located my 80 lb per minute turbo where i wanted it without that funny looking olive drab heat barrier. if you look on a properties table you will find mica is very very close to the least heat transferring substance on the planet. and miles form other things which many use. i tested the mica w a propane torch 1500 degrees for 2 mintues and could touch the other side of the barrier within one inch of ground zero. i am combining it w a Pettit housing shield made from some material obtained from a government agency in the, uh, space biz. i also am using the same material on my downpipe and exhaust. it is thicker and wider than the usual shielding.

if you look carefully you will see my relocated intake air sensor just behind the intercooler silicone...

manual steering, manual brakes. my car is a dual purpose road race and streetcar. manual steering since 99. the brakes are unique in that they have two master cylinders (front and rear) w an adjustable (cockpit) bias bar so i can add or subtract as much rear or front brakes as i want. you may also notice the tilton mastercylinder for the double disc Quartermaster clutch next to the brakes.

you can get a pretty good view of one of my two FJO methanol injectors located on the elbow.

the car is a bit ratty at the moment as i have just had to focus on getting it running.

IF all goes well should be on the dyno next week...
howard

 

drools O_o, keep em coming sir.

 

I know some of the turbos you selected are kinda large but I'm mostly interested in seeing the spool response! Can't wait!

 

I know some of the turbos you selected are kinda large but I'm mostly interested in seeing the spool response! Can't wait!

 

best thread on rx7club mate looks great and cant wait to see the results

 

Anxiously awaiting results Howard.

 

^^^^^^That gif made me laugh hysterically...very unexpected but perfectly placed. Well done sir.