Sounds fishy Howard. Is the pump wired with good grade wires and a good relay?

What kind of pump are you running?

JT

 

Rest assured, if Howard did it the wires are good grade as is the relay.

~S~

 

Is it the B-A-P's fuse that's blowing? First time I wired up my B-A-P it would blow my main ECU fuse as well Howard, as soon as boost came on (pressure switch closed). I have found it needs good thick, dedicated wire to the voltage booster itself.

 

I'm not a big fan of the the boost a pumps and similar devices. To me it just seems like another possible weak link in a chain that has enough weak point already. Good luck getting everything straightened out Howard. Can't wait to see how your results pan out.

 

Depends how you look at it. I'd rather have 1 fuel pump than 2 in my system.

 

Exactly, I'd rather have one huge fuel pump with out anything extra that could foul it up! KISS. Of course, with the kind of power Howards trying to pump out he could always try one of the pulley driving fuel pumps!

 

He don't need the realy big fuel pump, as he's using meth injection to gain better octane rating and add more fuel. So he can get by with just 850 pri and 1680 sec if im not mistaken. And then you don't need anything bigger then a Bosch 044 pump.

so no need for 2 fuel pumps, as the bosch flows atleast enough for 4x1680cc injectors.

JT

 

the picture, not the babe on the wall picture, ME working on the car... rather than a dyno sheet, typifies the recent efforts... on 11/16 we ran into weird elec problems blowing fuel pump fuses. it turned out to be the Kenne Bell Boost A Pump which has served excellent duty on my car for 6 years and will be replaced w another BAP.

since we are currently running off the WG spring we just wired around the BAP and did get back to the dyno 11/18. we also changed the WG spring which was providing 20 psi... we now have a spring which delivers 15 psi.

the plan is to dyno all turbos at 15, 20 and max. (if max requires we switch back the spring no problem.)

one item i am quite happy about is that i wanted WG efficiency to the point that you would be able to run an 80 pound turbo on the street (remember this is all about dual purpose) and be able to put your foot down and see approx one bar boost so you don't go into hyperdrive if you don't want to. i am delighted we can corral an 80 pound turbo just by switching off the boost controller. check that off the list.

Not only does the wastegate do a good job of delivering a real-world road friendly 15 psi from the 4094 but I am impressed w the boost curve. As I have mentioned previously, the car drives like it has a GT35 on it. really nice immediate thrust as soon as the right pedal moves. I expect when we fix a boost leak around the secondary injectors that the curve will move even further to the left.



The setup is not yet ready for prime time as we have a lot of tuning to do.

Here, for example, are our EGTs from P9-P17.

1594, 1618, 1615, 1592, 1585, 1539, 1503, 1487, 1491. (F preturbo)

They should trend upward… we are nowhere near the right numbers. I would like to see the last tick at 1695.

Fuel injector duty cycle is around 59%, the rest is methanol. Knock is under 30. Intake air temps coming out of the intercooler (before the meth) start (P9) at 75 F and end at 78 F so the Pettit intercooler is doing a good job. I have a Pettit fan on the IC. Exhaust backpressure is very close to boost pressure.

We haven’t as yet been able to focus on HP as we have been working our way thru a few problems but it is currently around 400 SAE. With the cold EGTs there is a lot of upside running off the spring before we move to 20 psi and beyond.

I will be buzzing the car up to Beyond Redline Tuesday and I believe it will live there until we have evaluated all the turbos. Snow is closing in and the car will never see snow and the salt that goes along with it so no more back and forthing. we will just get it done and trailer it home eventually.

finally things are getting interesting. Many thanks to ace tuner Luke Stubbs… I couldn’t be doing this without him and the crew at Beyond Redline.

 

Good stuff, can't wait to see final hp figure and dyno sheets, and the babe on the wall in person

 

Can't wait to see some numbers

 

Howard, please forgive me if already mentioned: What apex seals in your engine? 2mm or 3mm? If they are standard 3 piece 2mm, do you have a reason for not using the less-prone- to-detonation-destruction 3mm?

 

Howard that boost response vs. RPM plot is exactly the same as my V-trim/ S5 turbo highflow. All spring also. My engine is 12A, but I find that pretty cool. Also how do you deal with high boost on the street. I'm finding 19psi pretty crazy. Especially in the very top RPM.

 

"What apex seals in your engine? 2mm or 3mm? "

i have purposely used (in my personal engines) a number of apex seals. doing R&D. i ran 3 mm Atkins for four years. last year i ran NRS ceramic 2 mm one piece apex seals. this year i have ALS 2 mm 2 piece seals.

i have never hurt an apex seal in my personal car.

there are literally thousands of posts on this board about apex seals. apex seals and oil generally set off WWIII here.

it is my opinion that most apex seals will do fine. the key is to keep them cool. if steel seals get too hot they will warp. if you are not running AI you will probably warp your apex seals. if you have a modded FD and are running 9 heat range plugs you will warp your housings which end up at the same spot: loss of compression.

if you properly build, fixture and tune your motor you will not warp your seals and you will gain compression over the years. when i pulled my 4 year motor in 08 to take it apart to just see how it looked inside it had the highest compression reading since initial startup. and it gained every year. that's what happens when you control CCP (combustion chamber pressure/heat)...

you need to control the heat w AI, eliminate interior carbon by ditching the external oil pump and premixing, and run 10 or colder plugs.

do it right and your rotor will look like this:



happy rotors promote happy apex seals.

the pictured rotor came out of my motor after a year's usage and has not been cleaned. notice zero carbon. notice no leakage past the side seals. compare it w the typical FD rotor which has half a tenth of an inch of carbon all over it. carbon breaks seals and accelerates interior wear. carbon is lethal.

do all of the above and you can run just about any apex seal you wish.

as far as 3 mm, i only run them when the apex seal groove is garfed on a good rotor. nothing particularly against them, just don't see the need. it is really really important to get the groove remachined so that not only is the seal/groove clearance is right but the groove maintains the exact center.

not easy to do right. don't let just anyone at your rotors.

i would rather not have the thread detour into the usual apex seal rant... save it for another thread. this thread is about turbos.

maybe w my car staying at Beyond Redline we might be able to add a few. first things first however, job one is to get the basics sorted.

 

Casey should have my turbo, so if you want my offer is still open if you would like to throw it on your car once you get everything sorted.

 

Turbo is here, and exhaust system design is underway. If Howard wants to use it in his session, we'll be more than happy to bring it up. We aso have an intake manifold for you to test, wink wink...

 

Is there any reason why you are not running a GT3788R in the test.

Wheel specs: 63.5 in 88mm exd, 72.5mm ind 64mm exd. Max turbine efficency 71% - don't beat that till you step up to a GT42.

It is the obvious step between 35R/62 and T04Z/T66/67/GT4094 compressors in size and would seem a better match than the 56 trim 82mm compressor with old school P trim turbine & housing.

It is divided T4 out of the box and comp inducer to turbine exducer looks decent for top end power while giving less turbine inertia & greater efficency than P trim & more compressor flow than any of the 61.5-62mm inducer compressors.

 

"Is there any reason why you are not running a GT3788R in the test."

the project is in it's purest sense simply a learning experience... for me and anyone else along for the ride. as such all contributions/suggestions are always welcome.

when Garrett intro'd the 3788r at SEMA last year i looked at the compressor map and didn't get very interested. a 7.155 sq inch comp maxing at 69 pounds. i do like the 52 trim for spool. the close cousin 67 turbos have spool un-friendly 63 trims. the turbine area (5.694) is 79.5% of the cold side which is o k.

so compressor average area and trim line up as follows:

GT3582r.........................6.386............. ..56
GT3574..........................6.386............. ...56
GT500r...........................7.002............ ....63
TO4Z..............................7.002........... .....63
PT67...............................7.002.......... ......63
BW S300s63...................7.006................52
GT3788r..........................7.155............ ....52
T66.................................7.657 (just because you mentioned it) 52
GT4094r..........................8.175............ ....52

of course there are lots of other factors that determine spool, output etc and that is really why i am so interested in generating apples to apples comparisons.

for instance my 4094 has a modest 78.5% area ratio hot to cold area. in theory that should create unfavorable backpressure and hurt spool. (it is also one of the neat things about the package as it shrinks the overall size V it's (almost) comparable brother the 4294.

so far in early testing i am finding that backpressure is modest. since my backpressure is measured digitally it has spikes (max reading) and dips just like a compression stroke. if it were measured w an analog gauge it would show an average pressure. i am only looking at the max spikes and seeing no more than a 20% max reading V boost between 15 and 30 psi.

spool off the spring 15 psi is reached at under 4000 and this is w a significant boost leak so it should improve a bit and looks good.

that is the point of the thread... to replace theory w real world accurate data.

i have a contact that had a very high research position w Garrett. when we were recently discussing a detail on a compressor map he told me to not take compressor maps details as guaranteed. he said they often vary from test to test on the same turbo.

another reason to do comparative dyno testing.

given the fact that i have chosen to domicile my car at Beyond Redline for most of the winter we will have time to wring them out. where it will all lead... who knows.

given turbo test one is the 4094, i am especially interested in adding Forced Performance's FP3794. i believe it is a GT37 frame w a GT4094r compressor re-engineered as a billett FP design. currently it has a T3 hotside on it but we hope that they will reoffer it w a T4 so we can include it. it sounds delicious.

i also want to do the new GT35rX billet once we get into the GT35 range...

howard

 

I was wondering what you thought about the new Borg Warner EFR turbos for a rotary application. Any plans on including one of these in your dyno extravaganza?

 

I sent them an email they do have a 3794r in t4 in 1.00 a/r

 

"they do have a 3794r in t4 in 1.00 a/r"

if so i am pretty sure we will, in one way of another, find a way to give it a spin.

as to the new BWs... i think we have enough on the plate for the moment but the car will probably be in Green Bay most/all of the winter so we will see how things work out.

 

Estimated full boost on the gt3794r any guesses?

 

So whats the difference between this new compressor housing in the one older one?

 

update:

since the thread has a pretty good following i want to provide an update. we spent from 9 am til almost 4 pm dynoing/wrenching on the car yesterday. from a results basis we went backwards. taking a step back we have had 3 sessions and have made less hp each session.

we have a current problem that as yet we haven't solved.

looking at yesterday from a different viewpoint we made alot of progress. ruling out potential causes narrows the outstanding possible solutions. we are getting boost but decreasing hp so something may be impeding the flow, as in a restrictor plate. we have ruled out anything on the intake side of the motor. IMO, it looks like, perhaps a degraded mid muffler... we did a quick check on the Racing Beat catback and it appears to be o k.

the motor is fine... compression is on the money. we have been all over the tunescape so it isn't the tune. verified the ignition. changed coils, plugs etc etc.

whatever it is we will find it and get back to the project.

which continues to look more and more interesting w the arrival of the new batch of turbos...

for instance take a look at this newly published compressor map for the GTX3582r!



i see 76 pounds per minute at 26 PSI! that's 573 rw rotary hp from a diminutive 18 pound package! nice efficiency numbers too. take a look at one bar...(2 pressure ratios... 56 pounds on the original GT35 map, 60 pounds on the newer "ported shroud" map and 67 on the GTX and at 65% efficiency... the ported shroud map was 60%!

i happen to think that this may be close to the perfect setup for 95% of FD owners. much more than 600 and you have to do all sorts of interior stuff to the motor. plus 550 is CRAZY FAST.

this turbo WILL be in my test.... along w the FP3794.

while we have been toiling away without payback to this point i am in a really upbeat mood. generally winter is a bummer in Wisconsin. when i was racing the good times ended mid october at the Runoffs at Road Atlanta. it was almost like dieing annually to put the car away... of course the offseason provided time to re-engineer stuff but...

w my dual purpose FD winter seems to come too soon and the car goes up on jackstands and gets re-engineered.

this year, for the first time is completely different.

the car is spending the winter RUNNING (sort of at the moment) at Beyond Redline, 90 miles away in Green Bay. it will be there, running, all winter and after we figure out what the hell is wrong w it we will be busy swapping turbos and generating comparative results.

so life is good even though snow is now on the ground around here.

i look forward to getting initial problems straightened out and getting some data going in this thread which of course is the only reason you are on board.

howard

 

Even though there is some bad news in your update, I'm glad to see such good progress otherwise, in the grand scheme of things.

MOBEONER - I was referring to the one you pictured as opposed to the one that has the holes all around the tapered inlet. Howard was just telling me when he called me back that the ported shroud you have pictured was the one that was referred to for the compressor map.

 

I am pumped to see what the new EFR turbos are gonna do as well. The 9180 divided....mmmmm good