THANK YOU 20B 3rd Gen. Very well put. In the back of my mind I always thought the same thing about American power in Japanese cars was the root of the hatred.

I agree with you completely. The same people that show severe dislike of GM/Ford/Chrysler V8s ooh and ahh over other random Japanese engines ranging from the SR20, 4G63 and even the GASP! Lexus V8.

It doesn't matter what's under the hood. Those that choose to swap - no matter what their choice in powertrains - undertake a project that 90% of car enthusiasts won't do because they don't know how to do the swap, but would like to. Someone willing to change the powerplant of a car with something it was not offered with originally gets a thumbs up from me. Two thumbs up if it's an odd-ball swap!

 

While cruising, a v8 will get more gas mileage unless it simply has a extravagantly wild cam and intake, and a carburator. 400 whp on a LS1 is actually pretty mild and can get 20-30 mpg easily. I guess if you got one of those 3000-7000 rpm powerband setups and a double pumper on it youd lose gas mileage, but we're not talking about that. Plus that would be REALLY overkill for a car as heavy as a RX-7, and then some.

As far as getting lip over putting an american engine in it, well, americans are very well known to be bigoted against themselves and loving foreign **** more. And well, this is a free country, so thats okay, but dont count **** out because of where it came from. The facts speak for themselves.

V8 RX-7 swappers are out for the most performance for their dollar, period. As it turns out, a LSx in a FD is the premium iteration, and a SBC/LT1, carbed or EFI, in a FC is a VERY close second in terms of performance and arguably a little better in terms of pure "bang per buck". Best chassis with the best engine. PLENTY of exotic chassis use american engines, theres nothing wrong with them. The fastest car in the world right now, the Ultima GTR, uses a SBC.

The reason I get into pissing contests is people come in and spew **** with no facts to back it up. Its a subjective thing, and more often than not they're bigoted against anything domestic and have a very negative bias towards people who appreciate them. And you know what? Having a unfounded opinion thats full of **** is A-OKAY in the USA, but Im still going to stand up and tell it like it is if I can.

Its a simple fact that the same turbo on a engine with more displacement would spool faster and smoother, and have more torque, and a sufficiently big engine might even max out the power of the turbo. Id say take any single from a 13b and put it on your 20b. 2.6->4 liters is a big step. 5.7 is even more, plus piston engines (this is a fact, btw) make more power from the same amount of air being moved. This is largely becasue rotaries dont use the heat from the ignited gas in the combustion chamber as well to generate power to the wheels via the E-shaft - more of it escapes as heat than in a piston engine.

To be fair, a 20b or a 26b (4 and 5.2 liters respectively) would be more fair comparisons to v8s, but theyre so rare, especially the 26b, that you dont see it done very much. Then the displacement variable would be isolated and it would be just about reliabliity, revs, and the thermodynamic differences.

And honestly, they'd probably end up being about equal except for cost and the fact that you can bump displacemnt of v8s easily without major changes (stroker kit), you can go forwards or back with how 'wild' its tuned (intake and heads/cam instad of permanant porting to a housing) and that a v8 can shrug off pinging while a rotary needs new seals. Thats what most people mean when talking about 'reliability'.

Compare a 26b to a 302 so the displacement is nearly the same, and if they were both built for the same rev range youd more than likely end up seeing basically equal performance except for the thermodynamic and fuel inefficiency - and it wouldnt be a high strung 2.6 compared to a 5.7 unfairly. Or, compare a 2.6 to a 13b - go get a slightly bored out EJ25 or something.

 

Hondahater doesn't want to accept objective statements and facts and does not back up anything that he sais. He loses.

 

I do agree with you Nihilanthic, I've always said that no matter if it's a Honda, Rotary,V8, N/A, Turbo'd, Blown or Spray'd........."There is no replacement for displacement"

 

Ok didn't know this was grammar school, sorry teach. Also I never said the 13bt was "the most reliable engine". Your reading comprehension sucks! I said it is a reliable engine even when beat on and not modded correctly in my experience and in many others that I have read on this forum. So yeah fix your ******* eyes or learn to read moron. Isn't reading a prerequisite to finishing grade school??? You’re an idiot! Now I'm done, this is turning into a high school pissing contest and it's getting rediculous. Later ***

 

Well, you're the one acting 12, and no please keep arguing with nothing to back it up, child.

 

Uh, ***? How mature.

My reading comprehension isnt bad, its just not meant for rambling bullshit from someone who cant even make a valid point and is reduced to spewing baloney to make himself look less bad. I shoudnt need to be a cryptologist to try to figure out what your point is or what the hell youre trying to say. Learn some sentance structure and learn how to break up your **** into paragraphs, PLEASE. Who the **** would WANT to spend too much time and effort to decrypt whatever grammar structure you use into a comprehensible way to write.

BTW, if you want me to believe a 13B is relible when beat on and not modded correctly, you can kiss my ******* ***. You lean out/starve out/just plain run out of gas and your engine is ******* gone. Same for spark advance going too aggressive, or spark retarding making the trailing plug knock. Same for overboosting. Plus after enough miles it just plain loses compression and needs to be pulled for a rebuild. Do you have those new "unobtanium" apex seals Ive heard about? Oh, and dont forget if you run too hot you can **** it up, and I hope to god you dont lose coolant... I know piston engines that have blown out their radiators completely and driven home dieseling, because Ive done it myself. Try that in a ******* rotary.

Again, make a valid point you can back up, or just go away. Rambling on with the grammar of a 12 year old on aol and spewing insults because you're incomprensible doesnt make you look good.

EDIT:
Now, I dunno how to read hondahaterese, but when he said "everything I've said has been from my experiance[sic] from my tII being the most reliable engine evne though being beat up on by lcueless people that didn't know the first ting about performing upgrades on the car to talking about why in my experiance[sic] the rotary has been a better performer" it seemed to be he was saying:

1. its the most reliable engine
2. its a better performer.

Well, gee, wtf did you really mean?

 

I guess somebody needs a time out?

 

Ok first off the *** thing was in jest because I was talking about a high school pissing contest. You are a moron that needs things spelled out every time I type them, like a 2 year old. how the hell do you expect to understand anything someone types if your IQ is too inadequate to comprehend something simple like that??? I really can't talk to you any more because I can't speak retard, sorry buddy.

"Now, I dunno how to read hondahaterese, but when he said "everything I've said has been from my experiance[sic] from my tII being the most reliable engine EVNE though being beat up on by LCUELESS people that didn't know the first TING about performing upgrades on the car to talking about why in my experiance[sic] the rotary has been a better performer" it seemed to be he was saying:

1. its the most reliable engine
2. its a better performer.

Well, gee, wtf did you really mean?"

Like I said I don't speak retard...

 

hey was this link reposted at all? I cant get to the original

 

1. my IQ is over 140
2. you said its the most reliable engine and a better performer. A 13b is neither.

Ok, thats it, I rest my case, this guys made a giant *** of himself and doesnt know when to give up so he gets even MORE nonsensical.

BTW, sometimes its hard to detect sarcasm online because of the lack of inflection through text - your writing style certainly cant convey anything. Its rambling and run-on. Someone with the grammar of a 6th grader is insulting my intelligence... good god.

Im done, this thread has suffered its ultimate heat-death and the only thing hondahater has left is a bunch of futile ad hominem attacks and backpedaling.

 

once again, good job being 12. Didnt you already state that you're done with this thread 2 or 3 times? Good job bob.

 

V8 = approximately 5.0 liters or more

13B = 1.3 liters (effectively 2.6 when taking in the mind all face of rotors and then using the thermodynamic cycle to equate it properly).

Now let's be fair when comparing a 13B to an LS1... Oh wait, we can't be fair. So let's just through with a "26B" 5.2 liter 4-rotor engine. What would the outcome be with that engine vs. an LS1 with both having equivalent modifications? Over 500 horses have been produced in a FD with a 4-rotor with ABSOLUTELY NO NITROUS, T/C, or S/C and very mild modification.

 

So about the same HP you can get out of an LS1 that is still NA and using a hydraulic roller cam. I mean to be "fair" we for sure need to compare a mass produced assembly line engine to one costing in excess of $10,000 that is for all intents and purposes a race only engine....right? The LS1 makes the same power as the 26B in your example, I can get one for $1500, and its lighter, shorter, and will pass emmissions in California (not in 500hp trim). Above all this, I still will gaurentee you the LS1/SBC/ at 500rwhp will have a more streetable powerband and develop more torque sooner than the 26B. If we want to get int comparing race engines lets talk about a 750+hp NASCAR engine that is 358ci and still uses a carburator to do it. Or a 2.6L V8 CHAMP Car engine turning 15,000rpm nad making 900+ HP on 19psi of boost.







I do however atleast commend you in realizing that that displacment is the key to easy HP.

 

True. The price difference is enormously huge. But now take into mind what would happen with a turbo set-up peripheal ported 4-rotor engine... Anyways, I wasn't making that statement with the idea of price taken into mind, but to merely show that when we want to be fair in comparing piston engines and rotary engines, we need to take into mind the displacement issue. The potential in a 4-rotor engine and a LS1 are better matched though when wanting a side-to-side comparison than speaking of the 13B (even the 20B as well).

EDIT: I also realize though that displacement isn't a constant in the equation for power. Prime example is the 6.0 liter v12s in Ferraris, which when taking into mind normal Americanized displacement standards would give an outcome of 8.5 liters or more.

In fact, my friend has a Jaguar XJ12 (6.0 liter v12). That car is fast as crap so I have come to see first hand that displacement hasn't seemed to compromise power.

 

So you are telling me the only fair comparison with a mass produced LS1 that you can come up with is an engine that there is only a handful of in existance and it costs in excess of $10,000.

Who's side are you on?

Do you realize the power you would be making in an LS1 with $10,000 invested? You can near 500hp with heads/cam/intake/tb and a nice exhaust system.

 

We compare it to a full-on (that's what a PP 4 rotor is!) built V8 with an enormous blower and/or turbo?

 

I say we just compare a 13BT full on at 19psi to a CHAMP 2.6l V8 at 19psi....ever seen a 900hp 13BT? I mean the displacments the same so it is a fair comparison.....

 

I am on both sides.

I support the RE because of the amazing power it can make from such a small size and with the proper knowledge, the extreme potential you can build out of a 13B. Daring to be different is why I love the rotary. However...

I also support the piston powerhouses (such as the LS1) for the immense power it can out for so little money. I've spanked a lot of muscle cars with my Turbo II, but I have also had my *** handed to me by a lot of them as well.

I am not ignorant to the production of both engines and to the price difference. I realize all this because my family is split down the middle with cars. My brother & father are v8 guys while my cousin & I are RE fanatics.

Would I want a LS1 in my Turbo II though? No. I'm one of those people who feel like you have ripped the soul of the car away by swapping a v8 in it. Flame me all you want for thinking that, but that's the way I feel.

 

My car has more soul than yours. I dared to be differnt and there are probably less than 2,000 like it.

I do not see how a rotary has more soul factor than my LT1....

 

That is soul, not a 2800lb hunk of steel ane plastic.

 

Hahahahahahaha.

 

Could we post here what the true full on v8s are like here? High revving roller cammed things with head flow like a jet engine might just show what it can do.

BTW - the reason most people dont do a ALL THE WAY v8 in a street car is because its frankly overkill. Why the hell are you going to trade off your lowend for absolutely batshit insane power that you cant even put down?

Now, as far as displacement 'comprimizing power'...

Dispacement is what makes the power. Turbos and superchargers basically multiply the displacement, revving real high uses it more times a second, and improving your cam/intake/exhaust/spark timing is just using it more efficiently.

The reason you see 8 liter+ v8s not making insane specific output is becuase... its insane. Youd need suspension and tires from a race car to actually use it. The other thing is high revving low displacement high powereed engines have either no low end, or flat torque using VTEC and similar variable cam stuff. You have to rev it high and shift a lot to keep it in the power band. Some like that, some would rather just floor a bigger engine and shoot off. Relatively minor mods to a Viper engine would bump up the power from 500 to 600 hp... but WTF are you going to do with it? Why rev a viper any higher except so you can use a racier cam, and the higher rpms to make it sound less like a truck? :P

 

great post. too bad everyone doesnt think like this.

 

Thanx.