rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Why not just try it pre-turbo to see what happens? If you're worried about compressor erosion then you don't have to leave it like that. At least trying it, even if only for a couple of runs, would tell you if it works better or not.

BDC

As promised, did some more tuning on it. About the only thing I didn't do was a full 2nd to 4th pull that Anthony would like to see (well I'd like to see it myself too). I did however beat on the car quite a bit more that the last time. Ambient temps out here today are in the mid 70's if not closer to 80*F. I think the weather guy on the radio said it'd be 78*F out. That's about what it feels like. Cruising IAT's on the highway were around 115-125*F. The same ~45*F difference between ambient and cruising IAT's seems to still remain a constant.

Still running the same map w/ the same TurnOn point of boost (bout 3-4psi) with the fuel map setup as an 80/20 ratio (80% gasoline and 20% methyl alcohol) by 15psi and holding steady above that. AFR's today were in the low-mid 10's:1. Spent about 45 minutes or so of seat time with Jarred (eJayce996) helping me w/ the laptop in the passenger seat. Having him there allowed me an opportunity to watch more things while I progressively ran the car harder. I was able to get a rough scale of numbers to compare actual EGT temperatures to the Spare A/D +5VDC numbers. This will enable me to log the actual temps instead of merely relying upon a gauge.

Top EGT I saw pre-turbo was about 1650-1660*F. I'm still not sure what the acceptable heat range is for this setup but my gut says it's a bit warm up high. Because of it, I may go ahead and add 5% more alcohol to the mix and fire the spark one degree ahead. It might be that I don't have enough advance as it is at higher boost levels.

The engine didn't knock one time and I beat the crap out of it. Go sequential lead ignition!

In finality of this post, I think I can say that at even a 20% replacement of fuel with alcohol means not only a higher fuel octane rating in the charge to enable way high boost but more importantly a charge cooler that is far superior to air-to-air intercooling. The only thing left that I'd like to get answered to feel comfortable about saying that with conviction is to run it longer and harder to see where the air temps stabilize. So far, the pattern is the IAT's remain at a flat temperature commensurate with boost and do not fluctuate according to RPM or time.

Datalogs in the next post. I need 20 minutes to convert 'em over. Get ready to have your jaws drop.

B

BDC

Datalogs BDCHA16-20. EGT's are under the Spare A/D portion of the log.

Spare A/D +5V to EGT *F conversion:
1370 3.78
1455 4.06
1470 4.10
1500 4.20
1510 4.22
1580 4.47
1600 4.50
1635 4.57
1650 4.71

BDCHA16











BDCHA17













BDCHA18

BDC

BDCHA19









BDCHA20

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

*jaw drops*

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Am I reading this correctly? Is it that even at the max peak ( or spike ) at one point of 23.7 psi the AIT was less than 95 degrees??

BDC

Yes you are reading it correctly.

The last run BDCHA20 I was sitting around 22psi (sort of steady) and the air temps dropped down and flattened out to 90-92*F and remained flat. That's what I've noticed about the IAT's on this setup -- at some x boost, there's an x output temperature that remains flat as long as boost remains flat irrespective of RPM. Also, at 1bar of boost, the air temps were literally about 5-7*F hotter than ambient. On my first datalog that I didn't include in here, a 3rd gear solid run to 15-16psi, the IAT's dropped flat to 80*. It was in the mid-high 70's outside.

B

RXHEAVEN_WA

Can you do a run with 100% throttle and 8000rpm showing something of use that can be compared???

4000rpm to 8000rpm with 100% throttle and 22psi boost, then you have something that can be looked at *if your engine survives*

After you do that.

1st to 4th gear (simulated 400m run) ALL 100% throttle and running to 8k rpm at 22psi boost pressure and let us see the charge temperature at the END OF THE RUN.

Till then not much to see *yet*

Good luck

RXHEAVEN_WA

At 22psi it should be smoking the street tires in 3rd gear straight line acceleration....... do you have ANY performance increment on the car???? Do you know what power it makes>

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

I guess the x temperature at x boost depends on the ambient temperature to begin with and after that it just stays constant depending only on the boost because of the interaction between the temperature the turbo generates at that boost and the amount of auxiliary injection you are using. So if you use more or less meth or if the turbo was changed to another one then the temperatures would change to a new different but steady number.
The cool thing is that the temperature is constant and there is no heat soak apparently anywhere. At least not a considerable one.
Very nice!

BDC

Yep it's loads more powerful than it was. Obviously it hasn't been on a dyno yet. I'll do that at some point to get some baseline figures. The car is definitely quicker at 22psi than it was at 15psi. I have honestly no idea what it's making power wise but given the motor type, the CR, and the fact that this same turbo was on a similar car w/ similar engine, I think it's around 460-480rwhp.

I'd like to do some longer runs but I shy'd away from it today. Traffic started building up against (was 3:45pm when I quit) plus I'd been up and down the same stretch of highway and didn't feel comfortable staying on it more since I tend to draw the attention of the police and highway patrol after awhile. I still have a bit of work to do on the fuel map so technically I didn't even finish today. Hopefully I can get something soon that loads the car out more that's more inline with what you and Anthony (and myself) are wanting to see.

B

RXHEAVEN_WA

You know you can move normal fuel injectors up stream and achieve pretty much exactly the same thing????

Some do this and it works very well.

Evaporating any fuel in sufficient quantity will yield similar temperature drops. *just an idea for those who have not thought of it*

That is why old school carby (draw through) turbos work on high compression engines at 1.5 bar with no IC

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

What would be a cool thing to see also is a measurement of the temperature right after the turbo and before the AI nozzles to know exactly how much cooling the AI is doing.

BDC

I thought the same as well until I saw the IAT's from today vs. two nights ago. That was one of the things I was wondering about. There was about a 30*F difference in ambient temps yet at 1bar of boost the IAT's were identical. Funny enough, those IAT's were only a few degrees higher than where methyl alcohol flashes into a gas... /curious

The next thing I'll try on this setup is to shift 5% of fuel to alcohol (from 80/20 to 75/25), run the same 22psi at the same AFR's (low-mid 10's:1) and see if both the EGT's cool off as well as the IAT's.

That's exactly what the numbers seem to point at.

B

RXHEAVEN_WA

I strongly suggest you modify your turbo pipe to have a clamping method that ties one pipe to another! When those hose clamps blow off you will have a nice meth fire in the engine bay! I would eliminate the BOV as well as you will be getting some meth vapor coming out of that as well.... BOV's are not really used on serious turbo cars anyway, more problems than any false benefits they claim to give.

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Let me make a wild guess. I would think that by changing the fuel to alcohol ratio to 75/25 you will not lower your AIT. Like you said, the temperatures are a little bit over what the flash point of the meth is and that would mean that the meth will not cool down the AIT's further since it became a gas already. And I am guessing thats why there is not much difference between the older readings at a 30 degrees lower ambient and these new readings. It seems like the meth you are injecting has a lot of cooling potential up to the point of flashing, enough to take the job with ambient temperatures of 40 or 78 degrees. I would think that of course that has a maximum it can handle. Maybe if the ambient temperature was 100 ( a random number ) then you would start seeing a climb in the IAT if the Meth is not being able to cool down enough before flashing??
Now the exhaust temperatures are a different thing.
Just some ideas since I am not an expert in this matter. Please someone correct me if I said something too incorrect.

BDC

I just fussed last week to get the thing welded on. Now you're ruining my day.

One thing I did consider was finding an aftermarket BOV whose output goes back into the turbo inlet duct ala stock.

The thing w/ the clamps and coupler is a terrific consideration!! I thought about it earlier when I had problems getting a clamp on. However, and this is a guess, anywhere there's a coupler there's pipe that's been beaded with the clamp on the opposite side. Perhaps I should swap to T-Bolt clamps?

B

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

As for this, its not completely true. Yes it will help some, but Meth has way more power generation capabilities than gasoline and cools down way more than gasoline also.

BDC

I don't think it will at lower boost but my guess is it might at higher boost (20+psi). I don't know for certain, though. I could be wrong. The alcohol is already pulling a hell of alot of heat out as it is; I don't what 5% more alcohol to the overall ratio would do.

Don't know but my gut says I'll see the same thing. I do want to try this out on a hot summer day. If the IAT's don't change relatively much, then it's pure gold.

My guess is I'm not running enough spark advance for the effective octane and chamber temps.

B

ZAN_TUNING

iTrader: (1)

This is great stuff B!!!!! i'm happy to see the tuning coming along so well

what do you plan to cap off the boost at? you gonna take it up to 24psi or higher?

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Very awesome results. I didn't realize the temps were so close to the flash point of alcohol. What is the flash point anyways? I thought since people were having freezing intakes that it was a lot colder, like uh 32* lol... So if the temps are close to the flash point of alcohol that means that adding an intercooler wouldn't really do anything to lower temps further. If i'm understanding this all correctly.

Also since boost is relative to the heat output of the turbo, running the engine to 8000 rpm's, and going from 2nd gear to 4th or 5th shouldn't change things. There is nothing really to heat soak and the temperature would be the same at the turbo outlet. If the alcohol can take the temperature from 250* to < 90* it shouldn't matter if it's doing it for 3 secs or 30 mins. It's funny to see the AIT temperatures INCREASE as the throttle is closed. it's a bit backwards then what we're used to seeing.

I also agree it would be interesting to know what the temps are right @ the turbo outlet. Good job Brian, maybe the people that were so offended when you removed your intercooler will begin to relax a bit now.

BDC

I'm going higher. I want atleast 25, if not 27.

B

BDC

I've read and heard methyl alcohol's flash point is from 52*F to 70*F. According to Wiki, it's 11*C (52*F). I would agree with you to a point. I don't want to take away from the efficiacy of an air-to-air intercooler. But peculiar enough, at 1bar of boost today on my 3rd and 4th gear runs, the IAT's were right at ambient.

I agree and that's what seems to be suggested by the solid IAT's on every single run. Then again, they're only for a few to several seconds long so the only way to prove the theory is actually do it. Maybe I'll get the guts up enough to try it tomorrow.

Ah just a simple misunderstanding. No big deal. We're all in it to have fun.

B

RXHEAVEN_WA

LOL define "way more"

Please run a clac of 25% meth in that location V's 75% Petrol in the same location and we can compare numbers



We have run what you are only now just trying to work out and people have been doing it since early last century

Using the latent heat of Petrol to extract heat is a well known concept to most, all you need to do is place it further up stream where it has ample time to work.

And NO you dont have any valid comparable result until the mass flow of 8k rpm and full boost are sustained for the duration I put forth......... then you will know if its going to work

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Well, regarding the intercooler, it will not do much good if you used it AFTER the Meth Injection since the ambient temperatures are just a little colder than the IAT he is getting. BUT you normally use the intercooler BEFORE the meth injection which will get the intercooler to lower the temps to between 90 to 130 and then the AI will lower them even more, maybe to close to freezing ones like Howard was getting.
On the other topic, running the engine to 8000 rpm, the boost will stay the same and then the IAT SHOULD be the same but remember that the AI will keep only the IAT the same but not the EGT that will certainly be higher depending on the rpm's. And that will also raise the temperature of the whole turbo housings ( I dont know by how much though ) and then for consequence the air coming from the compressor. Maybe that difference will be not consequential but I think the EGT's will have a more interesting difference at high rpm and long time on boost.
The IAT goes higher at low boost because the AI stops or sprays just a little meth so not much extra cooling is happening.