What Intercooler?
 

Following in Stylemon's footsteps, I finally decided to getting around to working on the red car some and am in the process of converting over to Hot-Air. I'm running a Master Power T70 w/ a 0.96 A/R P-Trim hotside. The compressor on that turbo has a 2.5" discharge. On the old setup I was running had a 2.25" pipe coming off the turbo (reduced via coupler off the turbo) that was then reduced even further (1.75") to the stock top mounted intercooler. I was also using the S4 factory throttle body inlet. On the older turbo (60-1hifi) I made about 440rwhp and over 360ft/lbs torque with the same hardware. Ever since switching to the T70 though, I've wondered whether or not if the stock top mount was even doing anything as I can't imagine it being efficacious at all as a charge cooler. I've also wondered whether or not the smaller pipe (not to mention the stock top mount) was a big restriction to overall flow.

The new pipe setup is 2.5" and goes straight from the turbo to the throttle body via the new throttle body inlet adaptor. The new adaptor is a mystery piece that I found that I've evidently had for several years. I've got no idea where it came from but it wound up working out just fine. It's basically a machined aluminum flange with a 3" aluminum 'pipe' welded to it that fits directly on the factory throttle body. It had a flat, right-angular exit that I went ahead and did some bevel work on it since I was told that it wouldn't be for airflow transitioning from the adaptor to the throttle body. I'm using a 3" to 2.5" reducer coupler from the adaptor to the pipe. The two Alkycontrol M10 nozzles are located on the pipe a couple of inches prior to the reducer coupler. The aim of the overall setup here is to prove that AI can act as a "chemical intercooler" similar to what Stylemon's doing on his FD w/ TO4 and WI but on a higher power output w/ a larger turbo.

Ari Yallon at Rotary Performance (http://www.rx7.com) did the pipe and welding work. I'm very happy with it. It came out quite nice for something that's not exactly common and done more-or-less on a whim.

I also changed the oil filler neck setup. I took a factory 2nd gen filler base and had it shortened (cut and re-welded) to make it as short as possible. I replaced the filler tube with a Cosmo 13B-RE unit that's rounded but taller. Added a 5/16" hose from the filler neck to the catch can. I made the change to the filler neck to make sure a 2.5" pipe could go straight into the TB adaptor.

Here's a link to all of the photos. Don't make fun of my rusted-on-the-surface-but-almost-brand-new water pump. The only other thing left to do is get the BOV welded on the pipe somewhere. Not sure exactly where to put it.

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...AirConversion/

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/13627-1/IMG_6292.JPG

WOO WOO!

Way to go B :icon_tup:

I will be testing the no intercooler idea very soon. Please, PLEASE, let us know how you like it :)

Already got a little bit of data although it's nothing special and it's what I've expected. It's a 63*F day today here. The cruising air temps were between 140* and 150*F degrees mostly right at 147*F. The next thing to do is get the air filter outside of the hot engine bay and see what difference there is. I'll probably do some ridiculous ghetto thing with 4" dryer exhaust aluminum venting and stick the filter back out in front of the right front wheel.

B

What AITs were you seeing before you removed the interheater?

A little off topic but down the same alley, if running on E70-E85, does this have the same cooling capabilities of methanol injection to allow running with little or no intercooling?

Thanks.

Chris

Hi Chris, my guess is probably yes but I don't honestly know. Just have to do it and give it a try.

B

I can't recall, my man. I do recall them not being this hot, though. The factory TMIC did work but only when the car was cruising around up to highway speeds. Put any boost in it or let it sit at idle forever w/ the vehicle stationary and the AIT's would rocket up.

B

I am already building a setup with an air to water intercooler(4.5" thick), running on E-85 with a new(in process) intake manifold(the stock one was choking the engine).

I asked because if it works without then my air to water should be adequate. I will be using a 3.5" Thick X 7" Tall X 26" Wide aluminum water cooling heat exchanger with a fan, this should keep things somewhat in check don't you think?

I did some rough math and it should be better than my FMIC and with .1psi of pressure drop and less lag. We'll see how it goes.

Chris

p.s.This is for the ultimate renesis hoping for a reliable 500whp+ :)

That core will work. Looks like an old Spearco core!

B

Tony had that throttle body adapter made a few years back, over off of Arkansas Ln. Remember?

I don't recall but that makes sense as to why I never remember having something like that done.

B

looking good b. im looking forward to some datalogs. im too having some trouble with hot ait since my filter is in engine bay.

Oops I made a mistake. My core is actually 4.5" thick not 3.5".

Let me know how your car is behaving without intercooler. I am very interested....

Thank, and sorry for the hijack :)

Chris

Nah no problem Chris, you're not hijacking. All part of the same pursuit! The A2W will work terrific. That's a better core than what we used many years ago and our old A2W setup was terrific. For what you're going for though it will need to be a turnkey setup IMO.

I'll have some more data hopefully soon. I need to get the BOV flange welded on then I'll be able to get some tuning going on it.

B

Yo there is a guy in town that can weld aluminum. I bet you're going to need the matching aluminum flange

Good Luck..

I really think an intercooler should be used even when running 100% methanol i still think an intercooler would be a major benefit..

E85 doesn't cool quite enough to warrent not using an intercooler.

Chris your water to air intercooler will be fine...

Honest question here, why?

Well Enzo, the theory has to do with the belief that the factory top mount has little to no efficacy as a charge cooler in boost with the engine and turbo combo (partial bridge/T70) at the boost levels I was running several months ago prior to parking the car (I was already back up to 21lbs of boost on the street). I just can't imagine that it's doing much at all other than being beneficial at slower vehicle speeds in vacuum loads. The theory is the alcohol is what's doing all the work. At 15lbs of boost and above, I'm using a 65/35 to 70/30 ratio of gasoline to alcohol to maintain a low 11's:1 AFR.

Even after all of that, I could still be wrong, but I hope you're the one that's wrong. :)

B

The old 2.25" discharge pipe I had on the old setup is steel and the BOV is using a steel flange. I need to get the actual aluminum one at RP. Plus, Ari offered to do the weld work so I'll be goin' back to him for it. Just don't know where to put the valve yet. Any ideas?

Probably on the bend near the battery and its still fairly close to the throttle body

Brian, why didn't you concentrate on getting the old intercooler inlet and outlet pipes changed out for larger ones to match the turbo outlet? The tb elbow is absolutely atrocious for flow too so getting rid of that thing is also huge. When I agree that the stock top mount isn't going to cool at the boost levels you need it to, I do feel that it still had more potential left in it that wasn't being realized. Obviously the alcohol is still what's taking care of you the most at those boost levels.

I have always been curious about removing it completely and doing exactly what you are though so this is quite interesting to follow.

simple physics really.. Why wouldn't you want to cool something thats going in your motor hot? You can definitely get away with not using an intercooler in certain applications but it's always better to use one if possible...

There's pros and con's for everything.. I feel there's more pro's to using an intercooler. The only con's being what? space?

Brian, you'll get away with it upto a point.

My point is if you can an intercooler on your setup you'll be happier...

So you can consider me wrong upto a certain psi then after that your wrong.. lol..

Just cruising around from his own account, the intake temps are higher without the intercooler. To me that's already showing a loss where you (or at least normal people!!!) drive around the most. The real question I guess he has is at the boost levels he's at, is it really the alcohol doing all of the cooling and how badly is the intercooler restriction (in his case) hurting power? If the alcohol is doing most of the cooling work but he's losing significant power due to the small piping of his intercooler, he may actually not lose any full throttle power. He may gain some. He may lose some. I think the whole exercise is to learn something and I'm all for that.

My personal feeling is that an intercooler should still be used if for nothing else for everyday cruising but one that has adequate flow capabilities including the piping. A larger custom top mount and some ducting work might actually do the trick rather than a front mount. Then just rely on the alcohol to take care of the extremes. I'm one who personally believes that the benefits of a good top mount intercooler haven't really been seen on this car. Maybe the stock one, but not the idea.

I've been throwing around ideas for my car lately and I am considering a similar setup. I had a greddy 3 row FMIC on my previous setup, and I'm wondering if removing the I/C would help reduce lag. I would be using the FJO injector setup, so I can ramp up alcohol injection based on manifold pressure. In theory there would be no point to an intercooler then, as there would always be some methanol injected as long as the car was in boost.

Another thing to consider is how responsive your IAT setup is. The stock sensors do not react instantly, meaning that you could be almost instantly dropping temps like a rock from the injection and not even know it. BDC, are you running a blowoff valve? I am thinking of ditching mine. I want to simplify my car a lot. I'm taking half the unneeded clutter out of the interior as well (turbo timer).