What Intercooler?
01-18-09, 07:40 PM
#151
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
For pump gas I think so. All the other numbers however look terrific. This is why I am scratching my head.
I use 720/1680's with one Walbro pump. The reason why the Inj DC's are so low is because I use two systems and I stagger the fuelling load between those systems: The EFI and the alcohol system. The alcohol setup I use is overbuilt and uses twin M10 (10gph@100psi) nozzles with a pump pressure that goes over 200psi. On this hardware setup, I am demanding 65% of the fuel load from the EFI system and the remaining 35% from the alcohol system to maintain a high 10's to low 11's:1 AFR (or whatever works).
B
This thread is epic, and I'm glad someone is doing this. Just as a curious observer to see what we (as a community) can learn.
In about a months time or so, my new revised vmount setup will be complete, and by than I figure you should have this system tuned well. My old vmount was poorly constructed, ducted, and ONE time it heatsoaked at idle. But I went back to the drawing board after I took it apart - because the errors I found in the system (I didn't build it) were so concerning. The important thing is I realized it was THAT particular setup and LEARNED to make it better. If you are coming to DGRR09 I would love to compare. I have a haltech e8 so I can datalog and post up as well, But mind you, our cars and systems are totally different. I'm trying to be as efficient as possible with no Auxinjection (to keep things simple). I'm a huge believer of air/air intercooler, and proper ducting/piping, and most importantly MATCHING.
What I mean by this is, matching your intercooler design to your engine and turbo setup, and often times on 7club I see people just upgrading power but not cooling, when it should be the other way around entirely. Most everyone in this thread seems to know what they are doing, so let us try to keep civil and see what we can all gain.
Another question back on topic, what injectors are you running? 550/1600? Why is your duty cycle so LOW at WOT. 30% average? Wouldn't running smaller injectors and a higher cycle mean more consistant spray? I'm a newbie to all this in retrospect to you all, so any advice is more than welcome.
thanks, Mikal
In about a months time or so, my new revised vmount setup will be complete, and by than I figure you should have this system tuned well. My old vmount was poorly constructed, ducted, and ONE time it heatsoaked at idle. But I went back to the drawing board after I took it apart - because the errors I found in the system (I didn't build it) were so concerning. The important thing is I realized it was THAT particular setup and LEARNED to make it better. If you are coming to DGRR09 I would love to compare. I have a haltech e8 so I can datalog and post up as well, But mind you, our cars and systems are totally different. I'm trying to be as efficient as possible with no Auxinjection (to keep things simple). I'm a huge believer of air/air intercooler, and proper ducting/piping, and most importantly MATCHING.
What I mean by this is, matching your intercooler design to your engine and turbo setup, and often times on 7club I see people just upgrading power but not cooling, when it should be the other way around entirely. Most everyone in this thread seems to know what they are doing, so let us try to keep civil and see what we can all gain.
Another question back on topic, what injectors are you running? 550/1600? Why is your duty cycle so LOW at WOT. 30% average? Wouldn't running smaller injectors and a higher cycle mean more consistant spray? I'm a newbie to all this in retrospect to you all, so any advice is more than welcome.
thanks, Mikal
B
01-18-09, 08:38 PM
#153
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
I'll do it if I've got a level of confidence from someone who's done it before. But first, I'm relocating the nozzles if it's possible.
B
B
01-18-09, 09:04 PM
#155
I think running the AUX injectors as close to the the turbo as possible would yield better results. The way you have now its very close to the manifold and also the AIT sensor, which limits how much cooling can take place and how much cooling is actually logged by the sensor.
The closer to the source and longer it's in the intake the better it will be at cooling things down.
Personally I would be reluctant injecting straight meth preturbo, I would stick with water for pre turbo or at most a 50/50 mix. There was another guy on here that said he had much better results without the intercooler when he added a small preturbo nozzle. He's gone v8 now but has a thread documenting it on here somewhere.
It would also be interesting to get some AIT readings from a pre meth injection location right after the turbo. If you could get another air temp sensor and log it with the haltech you could then see how much heat the alcohol is taking out of the charge temp, as well as how much heat the turbo is outputting at certain boost levels.
The closer to the source and longer it's in the intake the better it will be at cooling things down.
Personally I would be reluctant injecting straight meth preturbo, I would stick with water for pre turbo or at most a 50/50 mix. There was another guy on here that said he had much better results without the intercooler when he added a small preturbo nozzle. He's gone v8 now but has a thread documenting it on here somewhere.
It would also be interesting to get some AIT readings from a pre meth injection location right after the turbo. If you could get another air temp sensor and log it with the haltech you could then see how much heat the alcohol is taking out of the charge temp, as well as how much heat the turbo is outputting at certain boost levels.
01-18-09, 09:45 PM
#156
i was on devils own alcohol forum, and they have been messing around with preturbo injection for over a year now. they say it works but the nozzle has to be small and the pump strong enough for higher pressure. and they also suggest no higher then 50/50 mix.
once i make a intake im gonna go preturbo as well and knock off one m10 nozzle.
once i make a intake im gonna go preturbo as well and knock off one m10 nozzle.
01-19-09, 10:42 AM
#157
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
i was on devils own alcohol forum, and they have been messing around with preturbo injection for over a year now. they say it works but the nozzle has to be small and the pump strong enough for higher pressure. and they also suggest no higher then 50/50 mix.
once i make a intake im gonna go preturbo as well and knock off one m10 nozzle.
once i make a intake im gonna go preturbo as well and knock off one m10 nozzle.
B
01-19-09, 10:45 AM
#158
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Spoke to Julio today. He suggested turning the alcohol wick down quite a bit and not running anywhere near as much as I am. So, I'm going to throttle it back down to 25% at 15+psi, set my advance curves 15+psi up back to where they were along with the split, and tune around that. I'll be running 1bar of boost for a few days like this to see if I can re-induce knock.
B
B
01-19-09, 12:11 PM
#160
Spoke to Julio today. He suggested turning the alcohol wick down quite a bit and not running anywhere near as much as I am. So, I'm going to throttle it back down to 25% at 15+psi, set my advance curves 15+psi up back to where they were along with the split, and tune around that. I'll be running 1bar of boost for a few days like this to see if I can re-induce knock.
B
B
01-19-09, 01:57 PM
#161
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
It appears the way to make the most power efficiently is to run both an intercooler and auxiliary injection. Without an intercooler you need to spay too much methanol to cool the intake temp charge. It does work, but methanol doesn't have the btu's that gasoline does, so you make less power. I have been building a lot of cars lately playing with all sorts of things, and it appears that a nice intercooler with water injection is the way to go. If its warm outside then a 50/50.
B
01-19-09, 02:25 PM
#163
01-19-09, 03:08 PM
#164
Hey B, I dont know if I am mistaken but I understood you are spraying pure Methanol right? What if you sprayed instead of pure methanol, some water with it. Even if you loose a few horses you may see a noticeable drop in temperature? Thats before you go thru the trouble of setting a new nozzle Pre-Turbo. (that I think would be interesting to test for sure).
And Enzo, yes I think that Intercooler plus Meth/water injection could the best if not at least the safest way (just speculating here, no hard evidence) but at the same time these tests are revealing some interesting facts that will help everyone decide between them with more real facts as a background. Maybe from all this you may end up learning that you have to use both but that setting up the meth injection properly you dont need that big of an intercooler, or maybe you can get away by just spraying water pre-turbo and a big intercooler or so many possible combinations that people are not trying yet.
B might be right or might be wrong but the fact that he is trying something different and registering the results is only GOOD for everyone else.
And Enzo, yes I think that Intercooler plus Meth/water injection could the best if not at least the safest way (just speculating here, no hard evidence) but at the same time these tests are revealing some interesting facts that will help everyone decide between them with more real facts as a background. Maybe from all this you may end up learning that you have to use both but that setting up the meth injection properly you dont need that big of an intercooler, or maybe you can get away by just spraying water pre-turbo and a big intercooler or so many possible combinations that people are not trying yet.
B might be right or might be wrong but the fact that he is trying something different and registering the results is only GOOD for everyone else.
01-19-09, 03:21 PM
#166
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
That's uncalled for, Enzo. I'm the guy doing this experiment and until I find out either way what works and what doesn't, I'm not going to proclaim anything. I could be wrong about what I think its going on with my setup but I'm still the one breaking tradition and trying things out of the box.
You're more than welcome to replicate what I'm doing (or do something similar) and join me.
B
You're more than welcome to replicate what I'm doing (or do something similar) and join me.
B
01-19-09, 03:28 PM
#167
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Hey B, I dont know if I am mistaken but I understood you are spraying pure Methanol right? What if you sprayed instead of pure methanol, some water with it. Even if you loose a few horses you may see a noticeable drop in temperature? Thats before you go thru the trouble of setting a new nozzle Pre-Turbo. (that I think would be interesting to test for sure).
And Enzo, yes I think that Intercooler plus Meth/water injection could the best if not at least the safest way (just speculating here, no hard evidence) but at the same time these tests are revealing some interesting facts that will help everyone decide between them with more real facts as a background. Maybe from all this you may end up learning that you have to use both but that setting up the meth injection properly you dont need that big of an intercooler, or maybe you can get away by just spraying water pre-turbo and a big intercooler or so many possible combinations that people are not trying yet.
B might be right or might be wrong but the fact that he is trying something different and registering the results is only GOOD for everyone else.
And Enzo, yes I think that Intercooler plus Meth/water injection could the best if not at least the safest way (just speculating here, no hard evidence) but at the same time these tests are revealing some interesting facts that will help everyone decide between them with more real facts as a background. Maybe from all this you may end up learning that you have to use both but that setting up the meth injection properly you dont need that big of an intercooler, or maybe you can get away by just spraying water pre-turbo and a big intercooler or so many possible combinations that people are not trying yet.
B might be right or might be wrong but the fact that he is trying something different and registering the results is only GOOD for everyone else.
I'm not sure about the pre-turbo nozzle (I am leaning against it) although I may wind up trying it. It wouldn't be that big of a deal to do. I doubt I'll use water, either. That would change the dynamics of this whole experiment. The system I use is intended for 100% alcohol, it's what I used with success in the past, and I'd like to stay with that for the time being.
B
01-19-09, 04:20 PM
#168
That's uncalled for, Enzo. I'm the guy doing this experiment and until I find out either way what works and what doesn't, I'm not going to proclaim anything. I could be wrong about what I think its going on with my setup but I'm still the one breaking tradition and trying things out of the box.
You're more than welcome to replicate what I'm doing (or do something similar) and join me.
B
You're more than welcome to replicate what I'm doing (or do something similar) and join me.
B
That's a very confident/stubborn thing to say? No?
You should've said " I'm not willing to say that yet, or until i'm done testing..."
And dude to say your trying something different or out of the box is pretty lame.
Maybe you need to come out of your box since many people have been running without intercoolers way before you were even born. And using all sorts of methods to cool charge temps..
Here let me help you speed up your testing...
or breaking tradition
or whatever the hell you wanna call it...
Your going to be able to run a certain amount of boost without an intercooler and get away with it depending on how you drive your car..
now you can leave it there and post all your results like you just discovered something great and your a hero and blah blah blah...
Or you can turn up the boost and spit out some apex seals..
Hopefully you choose the first option...
Enjoy as i done wasting my time with this thread...
01-19-09, 04:28 PM
#169
I don't understand why people take these experiments so personally. As though going against the grain is just the most awful thing anyone could do. At the very least removing the intercooler and testing will allow us to optimize the aux injection and discover just how much heat the alcohol can remove, as well as ideal nozzle locations and flow rates. Then with the injection system setup perfectly, if a person decides to use an intercooler they can pick the perfect size based on how much further cooling they may require if needed. We might all apt to ditch the huge intercoolers in favor of much smaller units with better flow. Nothing but good can come from experimenting. We would all still be riding horses if it wasn't for trying new things. Or worse our beloved rx7 would have a piston engine. Ha! Close minded people will never come in first, why? cause they are busy following everyone else.
01-19-09, 04:40 PM
#170
I think YOU'RE the one that has nothing but "confident/stubborn" things to say. I for one am glad you're dropping out of this thread, and yes your time in this thread has been a waste. No one has tried to pressure anyone else into running without an intercooler. Or said it's the best way to go, or if you have an intercooler you're just a Tool, It has been very well documented and has revealed very useful information. Unlike any of your comments. Do you have nothing better to do then **** on other peoples threads and act like an ***? Don't bother answering that it's rhetorical.
01-19-09, 04:50 PM
#171
Its not against any type of grain at all. Sure, its an experiment and all, but in this thread alone there's pics of TWO other setups who successfully ran without an intercooler so it can't be said that this is ground breaking stuff. Its been done, right? Its just that the limitations of that setup haven't really been found.........and the guys who HAVE RAN that setup are saying that it'll work even better with a little cooler.
Originally Posted by Dudemaaanownsanrx7
No one has...........said it's the best way to go
Personally I think B just doesn't want to do pre turbo because Rice Racing uses that method
(just rippin' B) 
Small intercooler and some water for me please!
01-19-09, 05:08 PM
#172
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
I think thats the point though.........its not new, its new to Brian's car.
Its not against any type of grain at all. Sure, its an experiment and all, but in this thread alone there's pics of TWO other setups who successfully ran without an intercooler so it can't be said that this is ground breaking stuff. Its been done, right? Its just that the limitations of that setup haven't really been found.........and the guys who HAVE RAN that setup are saying that it'll work even better with a little cooler.
Correct! But Brian *has* said that he WON'T say intercooling with a heat exchanger in addition to chemical is good. I think that's what set enzo off...
Personally I think B just doesn't want to do pre turbo because Rice Racing uses that method (just rippin' B)
Small intercooler and some water for me please!
Its not against any type of grain at all. Sure, its an experiment and all, but in this thread alone there's pics of TWO other setups who successfully ran without an intercooler so it can't be said that this is ground breaking stuff. Its been done, right? Its just that the limitations of that setup haven't really been found.........and the guys who HAVE RAN that setup are saying that it'll work even better with a little cooler.
Correct! But Brian *has* said that he WON'T say intercooling with a heat exchanger in addition to chemical is good. I think that's what set enzo off...
Personally I think B just doesn't want to do pre turbo because Rice Racing uses that method
(just rippin' B) Small intercooler and some water for me please!
Honestly I'm interested in limitations. I'm interested in numbers and data. If others have fooled with this before, good for them. I've not and other than very scant amounts of data from folks like Stylemon I've not seen any at all. That's one of the reasons why I'm doing it on the car. I'm also doing it to see just how important it is or isn't to follow the traditional method of an air-to-air, front-mounted intercooler. Nothing a thing wrong with that. I'm either wrong and I may (eventually) break something or I'm right. As best as I know, nobody else has tried this kind of combination before. If I wind up finding some limitations and still want more power, I'll stick a small intercooler on. Big deal. I'll have all the more reason to promote them in the future.
Tonight I'm going to cut a small section of the hot-air pipe, add a small coupler, and relocate both nozzles upstream. I also created a new map going back to an 80/20 ratio of fuel to alcohol. I talked to Julio today and he suggested that there's a such thing as over-saturation of the air prior to fuel injection. I'd like to know more about this. But for now, I'm going to focus on this and do a bar of boost, get some IAT and EGT data, and go from there. I also pushed the lead advance back up to 15-16* with an 8* split where I originally had it.
B
01-19-09, 10:15 PM
#175
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Jan 19 09 Update - Amazing Results
I took the pipe off earlier this evening and chopped it in the middle where the 2"-odd piece was in between two welds. In its stead I used a 3" coupler and used the welds as pipe "beads". I was also able to skinny the overall hotair pipe up by about 1/4" to 1/2" or so by doing this. The reason for chopping the pipe and adding a coupler was to relocate the nozzles from the aft end near the throttle body over to the opposite direction. Instead of grouping the two nozzles, I staggered them. The first nozzle is only about 4" or so from the BOV and the other nozzle is exactly 10" away from the first located in the first 90* bend in the pipe.
I also re-did the fuel map and changed from a 65/35 ratio of fuel to alcohol to an 80/20 ratio per the notion of possible charge saturation, advanced the Lead timing back up a bit, and skinny'd the split back down to 8*.
Running high 10's to low 11's:1 at 15-16psi of boost I was seeing EGT's at high 1500's to 1600-1610*F. I'll let the datalogs speak for themselves on the other results. I'll get the few datalogs I took tonight posted up in the next post. They're not as lengthy as I wanted them to be (started to run out of gas and alcohol) but they show massively positive results.
I also re-did the fuel map and changed from a 65/35 ratio of fuel to alcohol to an 80/20 ratio per the notion of possible charge saturation, advanced the Lead timing back up a bit, and skinny'd the split back down to 8*.
Running high 10's to low 11's:1 at 15-16psi of boost I was seeing EGT's at high 1500's to 1600-1610*F. I'll let the datalogs speak for themselves on the other results. I'll get the few datalogs I took tonight posted up in the next post. They're not as lengthy as I wanted them to be (started to run out of gas and alcohol) but they show massively positive results.