What Intercooler?
01-19-09, 10:55 PM
#176
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Jan 19 09 BDCHA12-14 Datalogs
Here's the three short datalogs I took tonight. I wish I could've run the car out longer. I will tomorrow if I get a chance to do some more tuning.
BDCHA12 4th gear
BDCHA13 3rd gear
BDCHA14 4th gear
BDCHA12 4th gear
BDCHA13 3rd gear
BDCHA14 4th gear
01-19-09, 11:13 PM
#177
Thats a awesome improvement. Im also running non-intercooled but with only one nozzle on 16.5lbs and my ait's get way out of control if pushed hard. This thread has been alot of help and i will be setting it up different when i have the time. Would like to see some more logs. 
Keep up the good work! Was it a noticable difference in seat power?
Keep up the good work! Was it a noticable difference in seat power?
01-19-09, 11:28 PM
#178
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Nope no power difference. Still the same.
EGT's got a little hot on one run. Think I may start firing the Leading a bit earlier, see what happens.
B
EGT's got a little hot on one run. Think I may start firing the Leading a bit earlier, see what happens.
B
01-19-09, 11:51 PM
#181
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
I'm not doing pre-turbo as long as I hear conflicting stories about how good it is. I also don't agree with it principally. Seems like an air compressor is meant to move and compressor air; not liquid. So, I'm going to remain skeptical on it for now. May change my mind later though for the hell of it.
B
B
01-20-09, 12:24 AM
#182
Very impressive log results. I had a feeling moving it closer to the turbo like that would improve the cooling. On top of that you're running less alcohol too. You should try running a bit higher alcohol % again with the new locations and see what kind of results you get. Would be interesting to see if there is much change. Maybe find a happy medium for optimal cooling without taking up to much of the air charge with fuel.
One thing about a chemical intercooler is it shouldn't heat soak as there isn't anything to soak. So 1st through 4th gear pulls should stay consistent. I also have a feeling that ambient temperatures will have less of an effect on intake temperatures under boost compared to an air to air intercooler. Will have to wait for it to warm up for that though.
One thing about a chemical intercooler is it shouldn't heat soak as there isn't anything to soak. So 1st through 4th gear pulls should stay consistent. I also have a feeling that ambient temperatures will have less of an effect on intake temperatures under boost compared to an air to air intercooler. Will have to wait for it to warm up for that though.
01-20-09, 07:16 AM
#184
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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CONGRATULATIONS BRIAN!!
we all just learned something. of course what i am not sure since there are 2 major variables (location and amount of injectant).
my money is on location location location.
as i stated ealier, Jose said that the alcohol needs time to flash. those are amazing numbers and if they hold up could cause a number of intercoolers to appear in the classifieds.
it will be very interesting to go back to your heavier alcohol tune to see the numbers.
you have certainly moved the AI ball forward in this thread:
1. quantifying the value of outside air (40 degrees!... everyone should be finding a route to the Great Outdoors for their compressors.) a 40 degree drop in intake air to the turbo is a "Must Have" mod for all.
2. probably proving that methanol injector location is very important. i say "probably" because B cut the meth which could have been "the " factor rather than location. my bet is location.
3. generating solid (positive) data re IATs w no IC. and looking good for those that cruise and take part in occasional straight line blasts. (my view is that intercoolers are necessary for road racing)
hc
we all just learned something. of course what i am not sure since there are 2 major variables (location and amount of injectant).
my money is on location location location.
as i stated ealier, Jose said that the alcohol needs time to flash. those are amazing numbers and if they hold up could cause a number of intercoolers to appear in the classifieds.
it will be very interesting to go back to your heavier alcohol tune to see the numbers.
you have certainly moved the AI ball forward in this thread:
1. quantifying the value of outside air (40 degrees!... everyone should be finding a route to the Great Outdoors for their compressors.) a 40 degree drop in intake air to the turbo is a "Must Have" mod for all.
2. probably proving that methanol injector location is very important. i say "probably" because B cut the meth which could have been "the " factor rather than location. my bet is location.
3. generating solid (positive) data re IATs w no IC. and looking good for those that cruise and take part in occasional straight line blasts. (my view is that intercoolers are necessary for road racing)
hc
01-20-09, 08:24 AM
#185
Stay tuned...
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Please don't sell your intercooler just yet
I'm all for testing and enjoy the results . I'm also a fan of AI and E85 and an intercooler (I use all 3)
I think these latest runs were done where the ambient temps outside were roughly 35 deg cooler than the first runs. I think it was in the 40s last night in Texas.
The last few runs were done at 13-15psi and at 100% throttle for about 2-3 seconds.
BDC,
Would it be possible to continue with the 20psi as you started with and run out at least 2nd, 3rd and 4th to see if the temps keep going down without the "heatsoak" of the intercooler?
For an honest comparison, do you plan on installing an efficient intercooler along with AI to document the results?
Also, do you plan on getting any dyno numbers to see how the lower AITs affected HP?
Thanks,
Anthony
01-20-09, 08:53 AM
#186
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
posted in my 3rd gen AI thread...
"Brian Cain (BDC) has a very interesting thread going in the Auxiliary Injection section.
Brian is exploring whether the FD/FC can work well without an intercooler... relying on methanol AI to cool the motor.
it is really great to see board members doing R&D. especially for me since it is 9 degrees outside in wisconsin. (of course that just means i am doing it inside)
anyway, a couple of very interesting items from Brian.
1. Brian did a comparative study on intake air temps (IAT) generated from taking air from within the engine compartment and from outside the engine compartment.
he found a 40 degree temp reduction from outside engine air!
this is the free-est of the free engine hp and longevity enhancement. we work so hard using every trick in the book to cool our engines and make more hp. cooler air means more oxygen molecules per volume, means we can add more fuel and make more hp. cooler air means less chance of knock.
a free lunch for your motor.
everyone who is currently drawing (160 degree) engine compartment air should go back to the drawing board and find a way to connect to the Great Outdoors. and i am not talking the Pettit deal which maybe draws a small amount of outside air. i am talking outside
anyone that feels they have a well engineered outside air setup is encouraged to share it within this thread.
2. Brian is examining switching methanol for the intercooler. he currently is running no intercooler. as his methanol switches on his intake air temps drop from triple digits to 75 degrees while his boost rises from 0 to one bar! thanks to the methanol.
my view is that for some running no IC could work fine. cruising and an occasional straight line blast and you are covered w methanol.
road racing develops too much heat and the IC is additive, o k subtractive, but in an additive way. Brian likes the improved spool/response without the IC. i like the always-taking-heat-out-of-the-engine of the IC.
in support of the IC...
air coming out of a turbo at 20 psi is often close to 300 degrees. i have relocated my IAT sensor to just after the IC. it is BEFORE my methanol. looking at my last dyno run my air temp sensor registered 33 C 91F! that means my IC took close to 200 degrees out of my intake air temps! that's before my meth cooling. no wonder my UIM is very very cold to the touch after a run. and this took place on a dyno where there was little airflow thru the IC.
perhaps the takeaway from Brian's research to date is that even without the aid of an IC, methanol is demonstrating an amazingly powerful ability to COOL. add an efficient intercooler and we are talking arctic.
which is just the opposite of what you are feeding your motor if you are not running AI.
hc"
"Brian Cain (BDC) has a very interesting thread going in the Auxiliary Injection section.
Brian is exploring whether the FD/FC can work well without an intercooler... relying on methanol AI to cool the motor.
it is really great to see board members doing R&D. especially for me since it is 9 degrees outside in wisconsin. (of course that just means i am doing it inside)
anyway, a couple of very interesting items from Brian.
1. Brian did a comparative study on intake air temps (IAT) generated from taking air from within the engine compartment and from outside the engine compartment.
he found a 40 degree temp reduction from outside engine air!
this is the free-est of the free engine hp and longevity enhancement. we work so hard using every trick in the book to cool our engines and make more hp. cooler air means more oxygen molecules per volume, means we can add more fuel and make more hp. cooler air means less chance of knock.
a free lunch for your motor.
everyone who is currently drawing (160 degree) engine compartment air should go back to the drawing board and find a way to connect to the Great Outdoors. and i am not talking the Pettit deal which maybe draws a small amount of outside air. i am talking outside
anyone that feels they have a well engineered outside air setup is encouraged to share it within this thread.
2. Brian is examining switching methanol for the intercooler. he currently is running no intercooler. as his methanol switches on his intake air temps drop from triple digits to 75 degrees while his boost rises from 0 to one bar! thanks to the methanol.
my view is that for some running no IC could work fine. cruising and an occasional straight line blast and you are covered w methanol.
road racing develops too much heat and the IC is additive, o k subtractive, but in an additive way. Brian likes the improved spool/response without the IC. i like the always-taking-heat-out-of-the-engine of the IC.
in support of the IC...
air coming out of a turbo at 20 psi is often close to 300 degrees. i have relocated my IAT sensor to just after the IC. it is BEFORE my methanol. looking at my last dyno run my air temp sensor registered 33 C 91F! that means my IC took close to 200 degrees out of my intake air temps! that's before my meth cooling. no wonder my UIM is very very cold to the touch after a run. and this took place on a dyno where there was little airflow thru the IC.
perhaps the takeaway from Brian's research to date is that even without the aid of an IC, methanol is demonstrating an amazingly powerful ability to COOL. add an efficient intercooler and we are talking arctic.
which is just the opposite of what you are feeding your motor if you are not running AI.
hc"
01-20-09, 10:19 AM
#187
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Howard,
Please don't sell your intercooler just yet
I'm all for testing and enjoy the results . I'm also a fan of AI and E85 and an intercooler (I use all 3)
I think these latest runs were done where the ambient temps outside were roughly 35 deg cooler than the first runs. I think it was in the 40s last night in Texas.
Please don't sell your intercooler just yet
I'm all for testing and enjoy the results . I'm also a fan of AI and E85 and an intercooler (I use all 3)
I think these latest runs were done where the ambient temps outside were roughly 35 deg cooler than the first runs. I think it was in the 40s last night in Texas.
The last few runs were done at 13-15psi and at 100% throttle for about 2-3 seconds.
BDC,
Would it be possible to continue with the 20psi as you started with and run out at least 2nd, 3rd and 4th to see if the temps keep going down without the "heatsoak" of the intercooler?
BDC,
Would it be possible to continue with the 20psi as you started with and run out at least 2nd, 3rd and 4th to see if the temps keep going down without the "heatsoak" of the intercooler?
For an honest comparison, do you plan on installing an efficient intercooler along with AI to document the results?
Also, do you plan on getting any dyno numbers to see how the lower AITs affected HP?
Thanks,
Anthony
Thanks,
Anthony
B
01-20-09, 10:34 AM
#189
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
01-20-09, 12:56 PM
#190
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in support of the IC...
air coming out of a turbo at 20 psi is often close to 300 degrees. i have relocated my IAT sensor to just after the IC. it is BEFORE my methanol. looking at my last dyno run my air temp sensor registered 33 C 91F! that means my IC took close to 200 degrees out of my intake air temps! that's before my meth cooling. no wonder my UIM is very very cold to the touch after a run. and this took place on a dyno where there was little airflow thru the IC.
perhaps the takeaway from Brian's research to date is that even without the aid of an IC, methanol is demonstrating an amazingly powerful ability to COOL. add an efficient intercooler and we are talking arctic.
hc"
air coming out of a turbo at 20 psi is often close to 300 degrees. i have relocated my IAT sensor to just after the IC. it is BEFORE my methanol. looking at my last dyno run my air temp sensor registered 33 C 91F! that means my IC took close to 200 degrees out of my intake air temps! that's before my meth cooling. no wonder my UIM is very very cold to the touch after a run. and this took place on a dyno where there was little airflow thru the IC.
perhaps the takeaway from Brian's research to date is that even without the aid of an IC, methanol is demonstrating an amazingly powerful ability to COOL. add an efficient intercooler and we are talking arctic.
hc"
01-20-09, 05:32 PM
#191
I'm not doing pre-turbo as long as I hear conflicting stories about how good it is. I also don't agree with it principally. Seems like an air compressor is meant to move and compressor air; not liquid. So, I'm going to remain skeptical on it for now. May change my mind later though for the hell of it.
01-20-09, 07:03 PM
#192
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
I don't know Stylemon. Call me skeptical. Something doesn't sound right about it. Even still, at this point, I doubt I'm going to need it.
B
B
01-20-09, 07:21 PM
#193
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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"wouldn't the ideal setup (a combo of HC and BDC) utilize meth injectors BEFORE the intercooler to get the maximum effect?"
good ICs are capable of "exchanging" a huge amount of heat. mainly because of their surface area. if you inject pre-IC you will lose a great deal of the cooling effect as the IC exchanges the cool for heat. 'best let the meth cool the air and combustion chamber rather than the IC.
hc
good ICs are capable of "exchanging" a huge amount of heat. mainly because of their surface area. if you inject pre-IC you will lose a great deal of the cooling effect as the IC exchanges the cool for heat. 'best let the meth cool the air and combustion chamber rather than the IC.
hc
01-20-09, 07:47 PM
#194
I agree with howard. I think it's best to inject after the intercooler if running one. In Brian's case, so far he has lowered the temperatures to around 25 degrees F above ambient with just alcohol. This is about the same that you can expect from a good intercooler. An intercooler alone will always have AIT's higher then ambient temperature. But, with alcohol AFTER the intercooler you could reduce temps to below ambient. Injecting Before the intercooler would be a bit counter productive, it would be like sticking your beer in a chest filled with ice and then sticking it in the refrigerator. Best to let the intercooler do it's job, and then the alcohol pick up from there.
On the other hand I feel that a water injection system might be best before the intercooler, and actually before the turbo. Which is the setup I'm putting together. I think it will reduce intake temps to a certain degree, but not as much as alcohol.
On the other hand I feel that a water injection system might be best before the intercooler, and actually before the turbo. Which is the setup I'm putting together. I think it will reduce intake temps to a certain degree, but not as much as alcohol.
01-21-09, 10:02 AM
#196
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
That's right. I doubt I'll do it. I'm so far wholly satisfied with what I've got goin'. Either I'm wrong about pre-turbo injection and am missing out on some gee-whiz benefit and will be pleasantly surprised if I do try it out, or I'm right and am preventing myself alot of headaches later with an eroded compressor wheel.
Either way, given the results I've most recently had, I can't see what adding an M1 nozzle up in front of the compressor is really going to do. Maybe I'm wrong. For those that say I am, then provide some before and after data of doing AI prior to and after doing a small nozzle pre-turbo. I'll listen to that.
B
Either way, given the results I've most recently had, I can't see what adding an M1 nozzle up in front of the compressor is really going to do. Maybe I'm wrong. For those that say I am, then provide some before and after data of doing AI prior to and after doing a small nozzle pre-turbo. I'll listen to that.
B
01-21-09, 10:06 AM
#197
BDC Motorsports
Thread Starter
Found a good discussion about this on one of the DSM forums:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newb...ction-kit.html
B
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newb...ction-kit.html
B
01-21-09, 12:08 PM
#198
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I found this thread really interesting. Sorry if its old or stupid (maybe because its turbo diesel), but he has charts and some interesting ideas with the pre-turbo injection.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=209796
You asked for results, I just goggled "pre-turbo meth injection".
I'm going to assume a d01 and d02 nozzle is super small?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=209796
What about impeller erosion with the pre compressor nozzle..?
The nozzle is producing a atomized mist of around 30 microns at 200+psi with the DO1 - DO2 nozzle. We have seen no issues, the paticles are simply to small to affect the impeller. Your air filter cannot filter out particles in the 30 micron range so you suck down dust, sand, and other debre that size all the time. Unless your running a K&N style filter your sucking down things from 150 to 50 microns all the time. K&N is good to about 10 to 30 micros.
The nozzle is producing a atomized mist of around 30 microns at 200+psi with the DO1 - DO2 nozzle. We have seen no issues, the paticles are simply to small to affect the impeller. Your air filter cannot filter out particles in the 30 micron range so you suck down dust, sand, and other debre that size all the time. Unless your running a K&N style filter your sucking down things from 150 to 50 microns all the time. K&N is good to about 10 to 30 micros.
I'm going to assume a d01 and d02 nozzle is super small?