Auxiliary Injection The place to discuss topics of water injection, alky/meth injection, mixing water/alky and all of the various systems and tuning methods for it. Aux Injection is a great way to have a reliable high power rotary.

What Intercooler?

Old 01-09-09, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
ALL of us running no IC have seen much LOWER AIT's with only AI under boost. To reduce charge temps, AI is the best way. Top mounts heat soak, front mounts raise water temps (that's not helping to reduce heat), v -mounts require ducting and reverse vent hoods to be functional.

The cooling effect of your charge temps takes place in the intake tubing. The cooling effect of your EGTs takes place in the combustion chamber. There are two theories you have jumbled into one.

There are two main reasons people use AI:
1. Insurance. To prevent detonation. This happens in the combustion chamber. The general school of thought here is that detonation is bad, water is the best deterrent.

2. Fun. To cool the intake charge. This happens before the air and fuel mix together. The school of thought here is that cold air makes lots of power. Methanol is very cold.

As I said earlier, right at the TB is a BAD place to mount the nozzle. If you saturate your AIT sensor, how will you know if you AI is working properly. The mixture needs to atomize well before it hits your sensor. That is why pre-turbo is a good place. You clearly haven't put any of your "theories" to practice.

We are currently puting down 620 to the wheels at 24 psi on pump gas and AI using these "theories." The setup utilizes a large front mount, minimal bends in the IC piping, 100% meth injection pre-TB, BOV placed on inside of bend as not to disrupt flow, as HC has also mentioned. It all adds up.

I am very aware of why people use AI, and yes you're correct, I have those two theories lumped into one. Yes water will reduce the heat slightly better, but methanol gives you both the fun and the insurance... and injecting pre-TB means only that, not necessarily 2" from the TB.

For us, the set up works. As the meth is being injected post IC/pre-TB in our setup... there is no water to be heated through an IC. If air can move through/across the IC, it will work as its intended, provided its not a bottleneck to the flow. If he's immediately choking his compressed air into much smaller piping, into a stock IC, over a hot motor, then yes... it will become a heat soak.
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Old 01-09-09, 11:09 AM
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Wow, 620rwhp at 24psi. That's gotta be a big turbo! What kinda hardware setup?

B
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Old 01-09-09, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
Again folks, try it before you add your "theories".

By improve, do you mean:
1. Higher AITs under boost
2. Pressure loss when compared to ANY IC
3. IC do NOT actively prevent detonation
Again, tried it... worked.

1. Higher AITs under boost... are you comparing a intercooled only setup vs. an AI only setup? Try both. There is no water to heat up in an IC when using meth or mix injected post-IC/pre-turbo.

2. Pressure loss compared to any IC? Perhaps you meant to say "pressure loss when using ANY IC," or " pressure loss when compared to AI" as there is no pressure drop... which is true, but again, try using both! Yes, there will be a small pressure drop, but this drop is not huge when you choose the proper size IC. I believe the reduction in IAT's more than make up for it. And as HC said, injecting pre turbo reduces the volume of air, as the water/meth droplets take up minimal, but still some space.

3. Somewhat true, however the lower the IAT's, the less chance for detonation. It is no question that a properly sized/efficient IC that air is able to move through/across will reduce you charge temps. Our IC piping pre-IC is fairly hot as you can imagine, however post-IC its much cooler, you could hold it all day... up near the injection point and beyond its ice cold.
A bottleneck IC pipe going into a bottleneck stock IC sitting on top of a hot motor will not help, can you argue that? Removing the restriction as BDC has, and going with a free flowing IC piping with the addition of AI is better, no question. I believe using both would be best yet.

What are the main intentions of the car... road race? top end? drag??
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Old 01-09-09, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BDC View Post
I'm honoured by your responses Enzo; you're a talented and established guy. I'd rather have someone like you tell me that something I've said is stupid rather than the hoardes of followers.
Thx, but i'm a just a typical gearhead...

Originally Posted by BDC View Post
... But, just because a million of us do FMIC's doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. As far as this intercooler bit goes, that's what I intended to prove if it's possible.
I never said it was the right or wrong way.. I just believe using an intercooler is a better idea then not using it...

Originally Posted by BDC View Post
Funny you mention that, Enzo. This hot-air and "chemical intercooling" idea was spawned by two things: One, stylemon's data to a lesser degree, and two, to a substantially larger degree the hunch I've got that the previous setup I was using (factory 2nd gen top mounted IC, 60-1HIFI, and 1.7-1.77bar of boost) was entirely kept under control by copious amounts of alcohol. One of the worst possible hardware combinations yet post-turbo EGT's solid at 1300*F. How is this explainable?
It's just as you said "chemical intercooling". I'm not saying it's not possible to cool with methanol as i've been doing it for years.. I've made close to 1000hp without an intercooler on a 2 rotor. What i'm trying to say is using an intercooler is a good thing. Whether your using meth as well or not..

I had a heat issue with an intercoolered BBC marine engine and we used methanol injection to cool charge temps/egt's and we ended up making close to 1800hp..



Originally Posted by BDC View Post
We shall see. Do you have a spare rabbit's foot I can borrow?

B
lately i need one myself.. lol..
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Old 01-09-09, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BDC View Post
.... the hunch I've got that the previous setup I was using (factory 2nd gen top mounted IC, 60-1HIFI, and 1.7-1.77bar of boost) was entirely kept under control by copious amounts of alcohol....
I think this is the key point... it was kept under control. I do not think it was optimum at all. The addition of the alcohol made up for the very restrictive IC setup IMO.
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Old 01-09-09, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
That's not very nice.
Sorry...
I'm not always a nice guy.. But i do call it as i see it..


Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
Again folks, try it before you add your "theories". I use VERY little from my AI tank and my temps are literally DROPPING the entire time I am in boost, well below ambient. I've never seen that from ANY IC.
let's say i've tried it once or twice..
No one is saying that meth doesn't lower temps..

How about a car with 48lbs of boost with temps over 300 degs F before the intercooler. (garrett core, air/air) and 120 degrees after. I would that's a decent amount of cooling wouldn't you say? Do you think water/meth would've done better?

Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
You say heat is no good, but FMIC raise water temps...
Yeah but you can address that issue.. My brother's FD runs at 165~180 degrees with a big FMIC. Doesn't seem to have any issues with water temps..

Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
By improve, do you mean:
1. Higher AITs under boost
2. Pressure loss when compared to ANY IC
3. IC do NOT actively prevent detonation

1.. With an intercooler and meth inj you will have cooler AIT's then just meth inj..
2... A proper size IC will only have 1~2 psi loss. I'll trade that for much cooler AIT's ...
3.. I never said IC will actively prevent detonation. But lower AIT's is much safer then higher AIT's..
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Old 01-09-09, 01:23 PM
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I believe using both would be best yet.
I agree, as I said on page two. Using a small fmic with AI is the best option. For me, there are two reasons. Insurance if AI fails, and cool the charge in vacuum. The later being more important.

How much loss do you guesstimate there is with the IC?

and injecting pre-TB means only that, not necessarily 2" from the TB.
Also agree, in context though, you told him to leave it where it was. It is AT the TB, thus probably giving a false reading.

So if I read correctly, you only inject AFTER the IC? Since you have an IC, I understand why, but in the test I ran, the pre-compressor jet made ALL the difference with AIT.

We are currently putting down 620 to the wheels at 24 psi on pump gas and AI
Congrats. Take me for a ride?
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Old 01-09-09, 01:32 PM
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How about a car with 48lbs of boost with temps over 300 degs F before the intercooler. (garrett core, air/air) and 120 degrees after. I would that's a decent amount of cooling wouldn't you say? Do you think water/meth would've done better?
I admit, anything with that much boost is out of my experience. That's a lot for a rotary. From what I've seen with 10-25 psi, just AI does cool BETTER than AI and a physical intercooler. I will say that most of the IC set-ups I've seen on those cars, are terrible. Please Guys, STOP using the stock TM with turbo upgrades!!!

Yeah but you can address that issue.. My brother's FD runs at 165~180 degrees with a big FMIC. Doesn't seem to have any issues with water temps..
my question is, at what cost? especially on an FD. I would be interested to the radiator, intake and IC on that car.

A proper size IC will only have 1~2 psi loss. I'll trade that for much cooler AIT's ...
So would I. The only thing that's concerning my about AITs is in vacuum tho. I see a few work arounds using only AI (TweakGames had a good one), but a simple front mount is cheaper.
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Old 01-09-09, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC View Post
BDC, glad you swapped out that duct. I've seen that get swallowed when real boost hits....

Ken Scheepers and others that run all methanol in the modified class went back to intercoolers. I agree with Enzo...

From Ken Scheepers...
Consequently, I have made changes to the turbo combination and gone back to what I know works. This combination will be tested in Aruba for the first time in a few weeks and I am very optimistic the Nuclear Banana will back to equal or better performance, especially with the intercooler that takes the 443 degree (F) air leaving the turbo and reducing it down to 170 degrees entering the new Gato Performance intake manifold. Depending on the air temperatures we will experience for the night racing, these temperatures may improve. One thing is for sure, the engine uses a lot less fuel than it used to, to make the same or slightly better power.


Anthony
Anthony,

Don't take this the wrong way, I am just adding data to subject, and I am by no means qualify to provide real technical information. You posted Ken's information, but as you know, there are more than 20 modified cars in PR, running faster, and more consistent; without the use of an intercooler.,

Now, I realize those are race cars, and we are talking about street cars here. I appreciate eveybodys input, as I've been toying with the idea of not running an intercooler.

Last edited by KNONFS; 01-09-09 at 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-09-09, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post

my question is, at what cost? especially on an FD. I would be interested to the radiator, intake and IC on that car.
Not get in the middle of all this fun-time banter, but just wanted to pop in to state that:

My FD runs consistent low to mid 80s C temps on the street year round. zero overheating issues despite repeated hard highway pulls. Have yet to push the car hard in a track environment with the FMIC, so I can only comment on street driving.

Relevant parts include 500R single at 15-17 psi, fluidyne rad with 50/50 mix, Blitz FMIC, deleted p/s and a/c, and tons of ceramic coating
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Old 01-09-09, 03:18 PM
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We are all having fun here right?!

Relevant parts include 500R single at 15-17 psi, fluidyne rad with 50/50 mix, Blitz FMIC, deleted p/s and a/c, and tons of ceramic coating
This kinda proves my point. you've had to pretty much redesign the entire cooling, intake and turbo system; not to mention the added insurance of coatings.
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Old 01-09-09, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by KNONFS View Post
Don't take this the wrong way, I am just adding data to subject, and I am by no means qualify to provide real technical information. You posted Ken's information, but as you know, there are more than 20 modified cars in PR, running faster, and more consistent; without the use of an intercooler.,
If you look around at most modified piston cars mostly all of them run intercoolers.

Without intercoolers they were hurting motors more frequently..
Adding intercoolers not only made them go faster but motors are staying together..

There's pros and cons with both ... Intercooled or not.

Non intercooled needs to run much more fuel as now you using it to cool the charge. Since your dumping so much volume of fuel in your motor your taking away valueable space that could've been filled with air.. Unless your running larger ports to suit the extra volume of fuel.

Think about it..
You'll make more power safely when the intake air temps are cooler
so why wouldn't you want to run one?
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Old 01-09-09, 04:50 PM
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BDC, have you experimented with moving the nozzles yet? Perhaps moving it closer to the output of the turbo will allow the methanol more time to flash and remove heat from the AIT. Also, I agree that if you dialed in your meth delivery to come on around 0-2 psi and tuned your AFR from there, it would have an even greater impact in its ability to cool the charge under boost.
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Old 01-09-09, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
We are all having fun here right?!


Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
This kinda proves my point. you've had to pretty much redesign the entire cooling, intake and turbo system; not to mention the added insurance of coatings.
I don't believe Rich has redeisgned the wheel to make his FD run cool (not overheat rather...) Its fairly basic mods, and I believe the fluidyne rad for the FD is a drop in? But correct me if I'm wrong obviously

I have to say though on the topic of water temps, that as with ANY part of ANY system on the car - if you do it wrong you can screw up alot of things, or at least hold things back. Same with a front mount. If you stuff a 5" core infront of the radiator and expect it to just work as is - you're going to have problems. But a thought out FMIC setup like mine thats well ducted (as should any heat exchanger) and provides a pressure differential to allow the cooling to happen, you'll be fine. I have had no issues to date with temps and I've been across the country with it. Even on the dyno with over 50+ pulls in one session I never once had to stop because it was heating up, I did have to stop because of fumes thoug!!

Because although AI is awesome, it would far easier to screw up an engine by setting up the AI wrong with no intercooler vs. running a small front mount and having the car heat WAY up on a highway pull.

But good discussion - and I'll be interested to hear B's results on boost!
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Old 01-09-09, 05:20 PM
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Wow that was a long read wish I had seen this thread earlier on.

I personally think if you're running generous amounts of meth running without an intercooler is a good way to do things, makes the engine bay simpler, less weight, better response plus it's different. And as many people have seen, running large amounts of alcohol will cause the UIM to freeze.
While you can say yes the intercooler removes 130+* of heat, removing heat is not always accumulative. Meaning it doesnt work like the intercooler removes 130* and the alcohol then removes another 50*. Who is to say the alcohol won't remove the full 180* on its own with no intercooler?

Plus if you're saving a 1 - 2 psi pressure drop your turbo is now 1-2 psi more efficient. Running the turbo at 1 -2 psi less will decrease temperatures a certain amount as it is.

Of course there is always safey issues/concerns. Like what if your system fails to inject? Well get it done right and that concern is minimal. It's no different then if your secondary injectors stop firing under full boost. The result is the same.

Props to you Brain for testing something that few here have. If I was running meth injection I would probably run a similar setup. My only fear of no intercooler is having my compressor wheel chew it's self up and end up in the engine. This fear is based on what happened to my last turbo which fortunately the intercooler seems to have caught all the metal fragments.

My new turbo is a MP T70 w/ ceramic coated .96 housing, and i'm doing a preturbo water injection system similar to rice racing's. I'm curious how is the boost response with that turbo? I'm street ported and your bridge so that will make a diff, u also said the response is better now. Care to share what improvements were made with spool/response?
-Brent V
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Old 01-09-09, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stylEmon View Post
We are all having fun here right?!



This kinda proves my point. you've had to pretty much redesign the entire cooling, intake and turbo system; not to mention the added insurance of coatings.
As stated before, the fluidyne is nothing fancy, straight drop in. I didn't redesign anything on the car with the purpose of helping water temps, things like the ceramic coating are to help turbo spool. Keep in mind I'm also pushing around double factory rwhp too.....I honestly think removing the a/c condenser helped a lot in keeping coolant temps in check.
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Old 01-09-09, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by enzo250 View Post
If you look around at most modified piston cars mostly all of them run intercoolers.

Without intercoolers they were hurting motors more frequently..
Adding intercoolers not only made them go faster but motors are staying together..

There's pros and cons with both ... Intercooled or not.

Non intercooled needs to run much more fuel as now you using it to cool the charge. Since your dumping so much volume of fuel in your motor your taking away valueable space that could've been filled with air.. Unless your running larger ports to suit the extra volume of fuel.

Think about it..
You'll make more power safely when the intake air temps are cooler
so why wouldn't you want to run one?
Intercoolers are ALWAYS a benefit.

Even on WI cars Methanol or anything you care to mention

http://www.jamalb.net/stuff/gm_sport...build_book.pdf

It's all about charge density and volumetric flow rate, it is not rocket science ! Heat exchangers ALWAYS increase performance levels when designed even half properly
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Old 01-09-09, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RXHEAVEN_WA View Post
Intercoolers are ALWAYS a benefit.

Even on WI cars Methanol or anything you care to mention

http://www.jamalb.net/stuff/gm_sport...build_book.pdf

It's all about charge density and volumetric flow rate, it is not rocket science ! Heat exchangers ALWAYS increase performance levels when designed even half properly
Right on.... This is what i'm saying...
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Old 01-09-09, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RXHEAVEN_WA View Post
Intercoolers are ALWAYS a benefit.

Even on WI cars Methanol or anything you care to mention

http://www.jamalb.net/stuff/gm_sport...build_book.pdf

It's all about charge density and volumetric flow rate, it is not rocket science ! Heat exchangers ALWAYS increase performance levels when designed even half properly
Next you will tell us the world is flat. For years there have been many situations where a large group of people make claims against a smaller group of people that something is a certain way, or can only be done a certain way, but as history shows just because many people believe something, doesn't make it true. Though guessing by the winking face you're probably just messing around so I'll try not to be too hard on ya.

The link posted really had little to do with turbochargers or intercoolers, and had nothing to do with aux injection. I will agree that making power does have to do with charge density, and intercoolers are one way to keep the density higher by cooling the intake charge. But it certainly is not the ONLY way.
And I am certain that a "properly designed" intercooler does not ALWAYS increase performance. Performance is a very broad term. It comes down to the end user, and what they want out of something to dictate what performance is to that person. So making more power doesn't always mean more performance and to say it always increases performance would be inaccurate, even if it always made more power. So does an intercooler always make more power? I highly doubt it. There are plenty of all out drag cars running straight meth and no intercooler. I'm sure if there was 5 hp to be gained by running an intercooler they would have slapped one on.

So does running 25-30% meth:pump gas under boost make more power running an intercooler too? Who knows, there isn't really much testing done on the matter which is the whole point of this thread. Even if there is still a power advantage of running an intercooler it would have to offset the increased weight of the intercooler. What about one less thing to heat soak, simple piping, and quicker response? These have their appeal to some as well.

Lastly volumetric flow rate is NOT what makes an intercooler work to increase power. If that were the case it would hinder power. Both liquids and gasses (air) expand as temperature rises thus having a higher volumetric flow rate. This is not rocket science either, just normal fluid dynamics.
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Old 01-09-09, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by enzo250 View Post
Right on.... This is what i'm saying...
If only these people knew who they were talking to Enzo

Keep up the good work Autronic Brother
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Old 01-09-09, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dudemaaanownsanrx7 View Post
Next you will tell us the world is flat.
So does running 25-30% meth:pump gas under boost make more power running an intercooler too? Who knows, there isn't really much testing done on the matter which is the whole point of this thread. Even if there is still a power advantage of running an intercooler it would have to offset the increased weight of the intercooler. What about one less thing to heat soak, simple piping, and quicker response? These have their appeal to some as well.
Please post up the total system weight of your meth injection solution *include the fluid mass and run time on it!* and we can compare "them apples"

Heat Exchangers are proven best and AI added on top. Preferably WI if you look at many different fields such as circuit racing Formula One, Rally in WRC cars, and aviation is put on top of that for power increase etc.

Going wholesale in one direction and getting rid of the heat exchanger you will find at the end of the day is a negative total system considered step, both in package weight, power density, and complexity, not to mention a tuning disaster waiting to happen due to main fuel supply duplication.

But I look forward to the results
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Old 01-10-09, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dudemaaanownsanrx7 View Post

..... I am certain that a "properly designed" intercooler does not ALWAYS increase performance.


..... Performance is a very broad term. It comes down to the end user, and what they want out of something to dictate what performance is to that person. So making more power doesn't always mean more performance and to say it always increases performance would be inaccurate, even if it always made more power.


..... So does an intercooler always make more power? I highly doubt it. There are plenty of all out drag cars running straight meth and no intercooler. I'm sure if there was 5 hp to be gained by running an intercooler they would have slapped one on.

..... So does running 25-30% meth:pump gas under boost make more power running an intercooler too? Who knows, there isn't really much testing done on the matter which is the whole point of this thread. Even if there is still a power advantage of running an intercooler it would have to offset the increased weight of the intercooler. What about one less thing to heat soak, simple piping, and quicker response? These have their appeal to some as well.

1... Then I would not call it properly designed. Its more than just the cooler... piping size, routing, etc. must be taken into consideration when setting up a "properly designed" IC setup.

2... Ive asked what the car was being built for to better suggest a setup. What are his goals? So far the OP has made 440 rwhp with a very restrictive IC setup. To write off IC's based on his previous setup is foolish to me. Also, to ask whether AI alone will do the job... we need to know what you're going for? The most power? Quick spool? Simply being reliable while making good power??? Let us know and we can better assist you.
Simply arguing the fact that IC's increase lag because he's not using one seems convenient...

3... You're right when a stock top mount is used in his application....its very easy to discredit IC's given his experience. I thought the OP gave this thread the title "which Intercooler?" We've simply been giving him our opinions that yes, an IC should be used. Not a stock top mount being fed trough already restricting piping...

4... I would have to think so. I doubt we'd be making the power we are without one. We haven't tested anything back to back so I really can't say, but we're nowhere near where we want to be power wise, so at this point it makes no difference as everything will change anyway.
Also, what sort of power would you have to make to offset the 20 or so pounds at most an IC set up might add?
Think of it this way... how about one more thing to remove heat from the rotary motor? That has the biggest appeal in my opinion.

I feel as though I'm getting too into this.... My apologies in advance. I simply want to offer the best advice I can given my own personal experience!
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Old 01-10-09, 01:02 AM
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Great discussion so far. I'll be back with more data when I have it. I'm considering having the hot-air pipe ceramic coated as well as wrapping the januwine turbo inlet duct w/ a roll of Thermo-tec Thermo Shield although I doubt it'll have any positive effect. Once the BOV is finally welded onto the hot-air pipe, I'll be able to get some numbers again. From there, I may add an M1 or M3 nozzle in the inlet duct and have alcohol switched on at a much sooner point.

I'm still highly optimistic.

B
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Old 01-10-09, 01:30 AM
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I'm starting to think this concept is better suited for drag racing only applications.
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Old 01-10-09, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by KNONFS View Post
Anthony,

Don't take this the wrong way, I am just adding data to subject, and I am by no means qualify to provide real technical information. You posted Ken's information, but as you know, there are more than 20 modified cars in PR, running faster, and more consistent; without the use of an intercooler.,

Now, I realize those are race cars, and we are talking about street cars here. I appreciate eveybodys input, as I've been toying with the idea of not running an intercooler.
I just don't understand why you or anyone for that matter would not want to use an intercooler. I understand what you are saying with Ken's post but a lot of modified cars moved back to running intercoolers as Enzo also noted. In my opinion you are going backwards not running an intercooler. The new cores have a 1-2psi pressure drop so pressure drop should not be a concern.

I'm speaking from experience now. For those who don't know me personally, I tune my own car and build my own motors. I did not miss a track event last year with my FD. I ran all season, from 30degF - 120degF track temps. I run a minimum of 30psi at the track at 22 psi on the street. Last year one of my biggest issues was high intake temps. This year at the Pan Ams, the track temps were over 120deg. My intake temps were through the roof! I can only imagine what they would be if I did not have an intercooler. I have almost every single datalog of every pass down the quarter mile or dyno for the past 2 years. You would not believe the difference in power a drop of 50 degrees makes on a street car. For every 10 deg you drop your intake temps, you pick up about 2% more HP. Calculate a drop of say 50deg against a 500HP car! Do you see what I am getting at? I picked up about 40-50 HP by bringing my intake temps down. You would not believe how much power you would pick up with a water to air intercooler, probably my next move for track only events.

I just got home with the FD and I put about 100 miles on my FD tonight, my fd is not a drag only car. This summer in 100deg weather I had NO issues with cooling with a large front mount. I also have a smaller radiator and a single FD fan cooling the car, I have driven in traffic etc and again, I have no issues with coolant temps.

For the ones that think removing an intercooler is a good idea, datalog a high boost pass with and without an intercooler and both with the meth injection, not just a simple pull but a 1st through 4th gear run and post the data. I think most would be surprised what the results would be. I have spent hours comparing notes with fellow racers last year about the intake temps at the top of 4th gear and I have an intercooler, meth injection and now E85, I can only imagine what they would be without an intercooler!!! But what do I know, I'm just a follower

Anthony
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