703rwhp on 34psi PUMP fuel Water Only injection
09-29-09, 08:15 PM
#101
BDC Motorsports
If anything, the pressurized line heading to the tank would need a check valve as to prevent the tank from going into vacuum when not in boost. Otherwise, it looks simple and effective. I'm curious however with manifold pressure how much water actually makes it through the line and to the nozzle.... or, how much vacuum the compressor is able to draw when the pressure switch kicks the solenoid open...
B
B
09-29-09, 09:20 PM
#103
BDC Motorsports
The pros and cons? In my limited view, the most obvious being the lack of a critical component needing power. The fault tolerance here is higher I'd think. The con? I don't know other than being able to vary the pressure of the system to pressures much higher than what would be seen in the manifold. Might be a moot point though seeing as how the compressor creates a rather hellacious vacuum when it's turning a lot of RPM.
B
09-29-09, 09:35 PM
#104
I would think that a system using a pump to pressurize would atomize whatever liquid you're injecting better than a manual injection system. The amount of boost you're running is going to obviously be the limit to your injection pressure. The only detail I think you would need to "think" about would be the actual volume that makes it out and if it simply meets your goals... No reason to overspray but it would be a shame to come up short!
09-30-09, 01:28 AM
#106
I'll try to cover everything as best I can.
It is a boost (no vacuum) leak but the air port is small on the nozzle so it's not even noticeable. Never bothered with a solenoid on the atomizing line, I like to keep it as simple as possible. Yes I'm drawing boost pre throttle body. Both for the tank and the atomizing line.
The tank never goes into vacuum as far as I can tell, even at idle the compressor is moving a small amount of air. Once I let off the gas the pressure in the pipes is vented by the BOV, the pressure switch shuts flow to the nozzle. Flow has been checked, I set my air compressor at 20 psi and hooked it to the line going to the tank. The nozzle originally flowed 380cc at 20 psi, and after modifying it, it now flows 500cc/min @ 20 psi. I used a measuring container and activated the system for 1 minute.
Yeah no vacuum in the boost pipes pre TB.
The difference is very few wires, reliable and simple setup. My water flow is varied with boost pressure without me needing to do anything else. At 10 psi it flows 250 cc at 20 psi it flows 500cc and at 30 it flows 750cc. I personally love this setup and wouldn't switch to a pump system even if it was one of the new HD systems.
I tapped my compressor cover for the supply line to the WI tank. This provides the highest pressure possible for my nozzle. While you can turn a pump up to get more flow, you could also run a larger nozzle then needed and use a valve or regulator to dial back flow. There is more then one way to get the flow desired.
Actually not so, the nozzle I use atomizes water better then systems running at high pressures. The reason is because it mixes air in with the water. The water comes out as a fine mist even though it's flowing over 500cc/min. See the video here, which was also posted in my WI build thread linked earlier. (click the picture and the video should open in photobucket)
If anything, the pressurized line heading to the tank would need a check valve as to prevent the tank from going into vacuum when not in boost. Otherwise, it looks simple and effective. I'm curious however with manifold pressure how much water actually makes it through the line and to the nozzle.... or, how much vacuum the compressor is able to draw when the pressure switch kicks the solenoid open...B
The difference is very few wires, reliable and simple setup. My water flow is varied with boost pressure without me needing to do anything else. At 10 psi it flows 250 cc at 20 psi it flows 500cc and at 30 it flows 750cc. I personally love this setup and wouldn't switch to a pump system even if it was one of the new HD systems.
Sure you'd see vacuum with the throttle open in the plumbing prior to it.
The pros and cons? In my limited view, the most obvious being the lack of a critical component needing power. The fault tolerance here is higher I'd think. The con? I don't know other than being able to vary the pressure of the system to pressures much higher than what would be seen in the manifold. Might be a moot point though seeing as how the compressor creates a rather hellacious vacuum when it's turning a lot of RPM.
B
The pros and cons? In my limited view, the most obvious being the lack of a critical component needing power. The fault tolerance here is higher I'd think. The con? I don't know other than being able to vary the pressure of the system to pressures much higher than what would be seen in the manifold. Might be a moot point though seeing as how the compressor creates a rather hellacious vacuum when it's turning a lot of RPM.
B
I would think that a system using a pump to pressurize would atomize whatever liquid you're injecting better than a manual injection system. The amount of boost you're running is going to obviously be the limit to your injection pressure. The only detail I think you would need to "think" about would be the actual volume that makes it out and if it simply meets your goals... No reason to overspray but it would be a shame to come up short!
09-30-09, 04:16 AM
#107
Rotary Freak
I think this is one of the best idea's i have seen for a long time
On a brief side note... how do you (WI users) feel about the idea of water/steam cleaning the engine internally?
On a brief side note... how do you (WI users) feel about the idea of water/steam cleaning the engine internally?
09-30-09, 07:08 AM
#108
I can comment on that. I would go as far as saying its steam cleaning. I am no engineer to comment on what is actually happening. But with water injection you will get almost 0 carbon build up. I have pulled down multiple engines and they look MINT.
09-30-09, 07:34 AM
#109
I'll try to cover everything as best I can.
It is a boost (no vacuum) leak but the air port is small on the nozzle so it's not even noticeable. Never bothered with a solenoid on the atomizing line, I like to keep it as simple as possible. Yes I'm drawing boost pre throttle body. Both for the tank and the atomizing line.
The tank never goes into vacuum as far as I can tell, even at idle the compressor is moving a small amount of air. Once I let off the gas the pressure in the pipes is vented by the BOV, the pressure switch shuts flow to the nozzle. Flow has been checked, I set my air compressor at 20 psi and hooked it to the line going to the tank. The nozzle originally flowed 380cc at 20 psi, and after modifying it, it now flows 500cc/min @ 20 psi. I used a measuring container and activated the system for 1 minute.
Yeah no vacuum in the boost pipes pre TB.
The difference is very few wires, reliable and simple setup. My water flow is varied with boost pressure without me needing to do anything else. At 10 psi it flows 250 cc at 20 psi it flows 500cc and at 30 it flows 750cc. I personally love this setup and wouldn't switch to a pump system even if it was one of the new HD systems.
I tapped my compressor cover for the supply line to the WI tank. This provides the highest pressure possible for my nozzle. While you can turn a pump up to get more flow, you could also run a larger nozzle then needed and use a valve or regulator to dial back flow. There is more then one way to get the flow desired.
Actually not so, the nozzle I use atomizes water better then systems running at high pressures. The reason is because it mixes air in with the water. The water comes out as a fine mist even though it's flowing over 500cc/min. See the video here, which was also posted in my WI build thread linked earlier. (click the picture and the video should open in photobucket)
It is a boost (no vacuum) leak but the air port is small on the nozzle so it's not even noticeable. Never bothered with a solenoid on the atomizing line, I like to keep it as simple as possible. Yes I'm drawing boost pre throttle body. Both for the tank and the atomizing line.
The tank never goes into vacuum as far as I can tell, even at idle the compressor is moving a small amount of air. Once I let off the gas the pressure in the pipes is vented by the BOV, the pressure switch shuts flow to the nozzle. Flow has been checked, I set my air compressor at 20 psi and hooked it to the line going to the tank. The nozzle originally flowed 380cc at 20 psi, and after modifying it, it now flows 500cc/min @ 20 psi. I used a measuring container and activated the system for 1 minute.
Yeah no vacuum in the boost pipes pre TB.
The difference is very few wires, reliable and simple setup. My water flow is varied with boost pressure without me needing to do anything else. At 10 psi it flows 250 cc at 20 psi it flows 500cc and at 30 it flows 750cc. I personally love this setup and wouldn't switch to a pump system even if it was one of the new HD systems.
I tapped my compressor cover for the supply line to the WI tank. This provides the highest pressure possible for my nozzle. While you can turn a pump up to get more flow, you could also run a larger nozzle then needed and use a valve or regulator to dial back flow. There is more then one way to get the flow desired.
Actually not so, the nozzle I use atomizes water better then systems running at high pressures. The reason is because it mixes air in with the water. The water comes out as a fine mist even though it's flowing over 500cc/min. See the video here, which was also posted in my WI build thread linked earlier. (click the picture and the video should open in photobucket)
I need a smaller nozzle.
09-30-09, 11:01 AM
#110
Dudemaaanownsarx7, i cannot believe all the people that did not follow your original thread. I have not got my system yet because im going to try the trunk idea and want a aluminum tank so i have to get it welded up as i also wanted to ask you a few questions because i know you switched so many things since the original setup. I would really like to know:
your current setup, what solinod your using, were you got your nozzles from?
your current setup, what solinod your using, were you got your nozzles from?
09-30-09, 11:32 AM
#111
All the updates to the system are found in the original thread, as well as the parts used. Nozzle from spraysystems.com but was then drilled out for more flow. Changed all the nylon lines to thick wall silicone and fuel injector line. Instead of using a T on the tank for both pressure and atomizing, i have 2 seperate lines. Solenoid is still a spare nitrous solenoid. I also purchased an adjustable spring valve that i considered using to make the system fully mechanical, only problem is it would reduce the system pressure by whatever it's set to. I'm keeping my eye out for a boost opperated mechanical valve. Something that opens up a valve under boost without any wires or power needed, dunno if they make such a thing.
.
That video was 380cc at 20 psi before the nozzle was modified, it now flows 500cc at 20 psi, the mist looks essentially the same even with the increase in water. Because the water is so "floaty" it makes it seem like less water. I was surprised when i put the container under how much was really there. If you stop the atomizing line you can really see a difference in the effect the air has. In any case 500cc mixed with air will always be better atomized. But if you are running a pump, higher pressures with smaller nozzles is the way to do it.
.
That video was 380cc at 20 psi before the nozzle was modified, it now flows 500cc at 20 psi, the mist looks essentially the same even with the increase in water. Because the water is so "floaty" it makes it seem like less water. I was surprised when i put the container under how much was really there. If you stop the atomizing line you can really see a difference in the effect the air has. In any case 500cc mixed with air will always be better atomized. But if you are running a pump, higher pressures with smaller nozzles is the way to do it.
09-30-09, 11:52 AM
#112
All the updates to the system are found in the original thread, as well as the parts used. Nozzle from spraysystems.com but was then drilled out for more flow. Changed all the nylon lines to thick wall silicone and fuel injector line. Instead of using a T on the tank for both pressure and atomizing, i have 2 seperate lines. Solenoid is still a spare nitrous solenoid. I also purchased an adjustable spring valve that i considered using to make the system fully mechanical, only problem is it would reduce the system pressure by whatever it's set to. I'm keeping my eye out for a boost opperated mechanical valve. Something that opens up a valve under boost without any wires or power needed, dunno if they make such a thing.
.
That video was 380cc at 20 psi before the nozzle was modified, it now flows 500cc at 20 psi, the mist looks essentially the same even with the increase in water. Because the water is so "floaty" it makes it seem like less water. I was surprised when i put the container under how much was really there. If you stop the atomizing line you can really see a difference in the effect the air has. In any case 500cc mixed with air will always be better atomized. But if you are running a pump, higher pressures with smaller nozzles is the way to do it.
.
That video was 380cc at 20 psi before the nozzle was modified, it now flows 500cc at 20 psi, the mist looks essentially the same even with the increase in water. Because the water is so "floaty" it makes it seem like less water. I was surprised when i put the container under how much was really there. If you stop the atomizing line you can really see a difference in the effect the air has. In any case 500cc mixed with air will always be better atomized. But if you are running a pump, higher pressures with smaller nozzles is the way to do it.
09-30-09, 05:55 PM
#115
My knock sensor shows otherwise. (low 20's under high boost) Although it probably ends up being a little more then 500 cc due to my tank receiving the pressure from the turbo and the boost gauge coming off the UIM. (pressure drop) Even rice's (pete's) systems were designed to flow somewhere around that.
09-30-09, 06:08 PM
#117
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...&highlight=air
Post #5
Post #5
On the RX2 I measured the flow rate at around 550cc/minute @ 20 psi boost, we use 95 to 95 RON octane fuel in it and 10.5:1 AFR's (it would be around 600rwhp in your terms @ 20psi we run on road) it does 522.5rwhp @ 16.7psi on a dyno where a tricked out RX8 with extractors, full exhaust and air box etc does 167rwhp.
The thing to note though I do use a very advanced air/water atomizer that delivers sub 5 micron size droplets and this makes the most of the water I am using, if say for argument sake you cant get proper atomization (this is nothign but a theory) then maybe you need more to do the same job, bit like fuel mixing in poorly designed manifolds etc etc and its effect on power blah blah blah....something to maybe consider before you go lowering your rate.
I inject 5 micron and its before the compressor wheel too where as you are after I am guessing?
**PLEASE physicaly test your flow rate, I do that to all ones I play around with to verify what they actualy deliver specificaly what qty's in your rev range at WOT**
The thing to note though I do use a very advanced air/water atomizer that delivers sub 5 micron size droplets and this makes the most of the water I am using, if say for argument sake you cant get proper atomization (this is nothign but a theory) then maybe you need more to do the same job, bit like fuel mixing in poorly designed manifolds etc etc and its effect on power blah blah blah....something to maybe consider before you go lowering your rate.
I inject 5 micron and its before the compressor wheel too where as you are after I am guessing?
**PLEASE physicaly test your flow rate, I do that to all ones I play around with to verify what they actualy deliver specificaly what qty's in your rev range at WOT**
09-30-09, 06:43 PM
#118
If you read the post carefully. Youll realise that it only works well at that rate with very very good atomization. THE COOLINGMIST KITS do not provide this kind of atomization. Only rices kits product that kind of atomization.
If your kit does. Then it is still alittle under my liking.
I would have it around 650cc at 20psi.
The only thing alittle extra water can do is put more stress on your ignition but it will reduce any knock in nearly all conditions even with varying fuels and even with 91 octane fuel(which is much lower then your 91).
Read this paragraph if you still alittle confused
The thing to note though I do use a very advanced air/water atomizer that delivers sub 5 micron size droplets and this makes the most of the water I am using, if say for argument sake you cant get proper atomization (this is nothign but a theory) then maybe you need more to do the same job, bit like fuel mixing in poorly designed manifolds etc etc and its effect on power blah blah blah....something to maybe consider before you go lowering your rate
The kits we are using now have excellent atomization compared to the coolingmist setup. NO comparison.
If your kit does. Then it is still alittle under my liking.
I would have it around 650cc at 20psi.
The only thing alittle extra water can do is put more stress on your ignition but it will reduce any knock in nearly all conditions even with varying fuels and even with 91 octane fuel(which is much lower then your 91).
Read this paragraph if you still alittle confused
The thing to note though I do use a very advanced air/water atomizer that delivers sub 5 micron size droplets and this makes the most of the water I am using, if say for argument sake you cant get proper atomization (this is nothign but a theory) then maybe you need more to do the same job, bit like fuel mixing in poorly designed manifolds etc etc and its effect on power blah blah blah....something to maybe consider before you go lowering your rate
The kits we are using now have excellent atomization compared to the coolingmist setup. NO comparison.
09-30-09, 06:45 PM
#119
Finally Knows
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At least 10% water to fuel mix is a good rule of thumb.
If you are running 1680cc x2 850cc x2 (5060cc) fuel, 500cc water would suffice.
On my old setup up, I ran 1200cc x2 550cc x2 (3500cc) fuel with 350cc water. I ran up in the high 11.8 A/Fs at 18-20psi with very low knock readings.
If you are running 1680cc x2 850cc x2 (5060cc) fuel, 500cc water would suffice.
On my old setup up, I ran 1200cc x2 550cc x2 (3500cc) fuel with 350cc water. I ran up in the high 11.8 A/Fs at 18-20psi with very low knock readings.
09-30-09, 06:47 PM
#120
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My knock sensor shows otherwise. (low 20's under high boost) Although it probably ends up being a little more then 500 cc due to my tank receiving the pressure from the turbo and the boost gauge coming off the UIM. (pressure drop) Even rice's (pete's) systems were designed to flow somewhere around that.
I have to agree with you on this. I ran 350cc water at that boost pressure for a while with no problems.
09-30-09, 06:55 PM
#121
No offence but if your car was happy with 350cc of water it isnt making much power.
You have to see what power level your car is at at what ever the boost level is.
If your running 30psi to make 350rwhp and your running a 300cc jet and its reliable. Your car isnt making much power. If your car is making 600rwhp on the same boost it will require alot more water for the same boost.
Im not going to go into this too much but over the last year i have been screwing around with wi alot. 350cc of water on any real power level is useless. 500cc of water through a coolingmist jet on any real power level will not be enough. Once you go over 550-600rwhp youll need a minimum of 1000cc of water through a normal jet. Any less and you will have knock.
This is my findings. your experience my be different.
You have to see what power level your car is at at what ever the boost level is.
If your running 30psi to make 350rwhp and your running a 300cc jet and its reliable. Your car isnt making much power. If your car is making 600rwhp on the same boost it will require alot more water for the same boost.
Im not going to go into this too much but over the last year i have been screwing around with wi alot. 350cc of water on any real power level is useless. 500cc of water through a coolingmist jet on any real power level will not be enough. Once you go over 550-600rwhp youll need a minimum of 1000cc of water through a normal jet. Any less and you will have knock.
This is my findings. your experience my be different.
09-30-09, 07:04 PM
#122
Yeah i use the same atomizing nozzle as rice, so atomization is very good. I did see where he theorized about atomization, which was why i made i bold. Maybe the other guys do need more water, but i would think any lack of atomization should be made up for when its chopped up by the compressor wheel. I do agree more water is not a bad thing, with the right ignition it will burn quite a bit of water. My twin power and greddy race plugs burn what i need them too, but i'm not sure how they would fair with as much water as you run. Considering some people run 20 psi with no aux injection, anything is better then nothing. 500 cc is a fair amount of water.
09-30-09, 07:07 PM
#123
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It wasnt making that much power...Haha. That was on stock non seq twins with 80k on them... I wasnt expecting to make more then 350whp on them anyway. 350cc water was more then adequate for them. Anymore water then that would have drowned them out.
And 350cc of water is NOT useless. I was running the twins at 18-20psi on 91 pump gas. It would have probably blown if I had not been running water injection. It makes much more sense to run water injection (Even if its only a small jet) then no water injection trying to keep knock and egts down by dumping fuel. Water has more then twice the cooling capacity of pump fuel.
And 350cc of water is NOT useless. I was running the twins at 18-20psi on 91 pump gas. It would have probably blown if I had not been running water injection. It makes much more sense to run water injection (Even if its only a small jet) then no water injection trying to keep knock and egts down by dumping fuel. Water has more then twice the cooling capacity of pump fuel.
09-30-09, 10:01 PM
#124
Sorry. Maybe i used the incorrect word.
Useless on any descent turbo setup on 20psi.
But i guess in your case. You most likely had it matched very well as you have shown.
Just dont want people to get the wrong idea and go and grenade engines. You have to really get this right. Or it dosnt work.
Useless on any descent turbo setup on 20psi.
But i guess in your case. You most likely had it matched very well as you have shown.
Just dont want people to get the wrong idea and go and grenade engines. You have to really get this right. Or it dosnt work.
10-01-09, 02:01 PM
#125
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I am trying to find a good way of scaling back what you have done to a lower hp car. Comment as you please - if you think this idea is retarded post that too, otherwise which way of calculating water flow do you think is best? Anyone have any better ideas on how to calculate this?
Your setup produces roughly 93.3lb/min of air at 34psi and you use 2700cc/min of preturbo water injection.
~28.9 cc/min per lb/min of air
~79.4 cc/min per psi of boost
~142 cc/min per psi of boost past 15 psi
scaling this back to a 500 hp car at 25 psi producing 66.6lb/min of air
based on air flow: 1926 cc/min
based on boost: 1985 cc/min
based on psi of boost past 15 psi: 1420
All the assumptions above assume there is a linear relationship between waterflow required and xxxx. My feeling is that it is not linear but we dont really have enough data to figure out the nature of this curve so we can only assume that it is atleast linear.
Your setup produces roughly 93.3lb/min of air at 34psi and you use 2700cc/min of preturbo water injection.
~28.9 cc/min per lb/min of air
~79.4 cc/min per psi of boost
~142 cc/min per psi of boost past 15 psi
scaling this back to a 500 hp car at 25 psi producing 66.6lb/min of air
based on air flow: 1926 cc/min
based on boost: 1985 cc/min
based on psi of boost past 15 psi: 1420
All the assumptions above assume there is a linear relationship between waterflow required and xxxx. My feeling is that it is not linear but we dont really have enough data to figure out the nature of this curve so we can only assume that it is atleast linear.