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I don't think so, really, Fritz. The guys here like the way the car looks. They like the way it handles. They like the performance level for $10-15,000. Many, however, still think it's unreliable and for many it IS unreliable given what's been done to the cars or what has not been done to the cars. There really is a familiarity breeds contempt thing. Not in this case real contempt, but a kind of blase attitude. Many can't see the forest -- how outstanding and significant these cars are -- for the trees -- the niggling crap that goes wrong with them. There are probably 100 or so guys on this forum who really appreciate their cars. The others are more so-so about it. Think of the number of people who see the Rx7 as a stepping stone to a Porsche or Lamborghini or whatever. For many its a car that offers a lot of performance for little dollars. At least that has been the way it's been.
There's also the issue of what "appreciate" means: "to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of..." I think many here "appreciate" their cars in terms of grasping the nature of, but not their worth, quality, or significance. Certainly, some do, but not that many, imo. Certainly, the increase in the value of the FD's is not being driven by current members of the forum. All I hear is bitching about prices going up from guys here wanting to buy one and guys that own them saying how nice it is that prices are going up, as though they were ever going to sell.
Yep I gotcha and I literally don't even pay attention to the people who don't get this car. The majority of OGs totally love and appreciate it and they are the real contributors to this forum. Many have moved on and a few have come back etc.... I'm simply saying there is no other group that includes more die hard FDs fans than the members who belong to this forum.
There have been several vids recently of people who just discovered the car that are talking about it's value and how cool the car is but this is something the members of this forum have known and celebrated for decades.
Keep your chin up the value may go up quite a bit in the next 5 years so there's a chance you'll break even but in the mean time you'll have the pleasure of enjoying the greatest sports car on the planet
I can't imagine ever listing this car for sale...I've had FDs once every few years but this time I am knowledgable enough and with a little disposable income to happily throw away on whatever mod I want. It is pretty liberating to finally do what I always wanted to an FD RX-7 vs barely trying to keep the car running as a college student with used and worn out parts.
So, the car "looks" pristine, and with silver being the lowest production R2 color (83 in '94 and only 16 in '95), he'll probably score more than $40K IMO. There was a bone stock, uber clean '94 at Sevenstock in Silver with burgundy red seats, burgundy carpet and black interior panels, which looked incredible. Bone stock in exceptional condition with low miles is getting very hard to find.
I believe Tom Matano owns (or maybe "owned" by now) a beautiful silver '95. I don't know the specific trim level on his car, though. He was at the 20th anniversary of the Miata at Mazda R & D in Irvine back in 2009. He actually took a pic of our '94 FD, alone in the parking lot in back of the facility, while we were there. Cool guy.
So, the car "looks" pristine, and with silver being the lowest production R2 color (83 in '94 and only 16 in '95), he'll probably score more than $40K IMO. There was a bone stock, uber clean '94 at Sevenstock in Silver with burgundy red seats, burgundy carpet and black interior panels, which looked incredible. Bone stock in exceptional condition with low miles is getting very hard to find.
Yep. If all things stay the same they should get 40k in the next year or two.
We'll do an experiment in this thread. If there is anyone interested in selling me their clean low mileage FD for 40k let me know (high quality bolt on mods preferred especially if you still have the stock parts). If the car is exceptional I'll buy it. Not remotely interested in the above car at 40k though.
Why:
too many miles
average compression
average paint (pics don't mean anything especially those that are photo shopped)
don't want any interior changes (unless done nicely) Holes cut in the door panels and rear quarters is not what I call done nicely LOL
etc...etc...
Yep. If all things stay the same they should get 40k in the next year or two.
We'll do an experiment in this thread. If there is anyone interested in selling me their clean low mileage FD for 40k let me know (high quality bolt on mods preferred especially if you still have the stock parts). If the car is exceptional I'll buy it. Not remotely interested in the above car at 40k though.
Why:
too many miles
average compression
average paint (pics don't mean anything especially those that are photo shopped)
don't want any interior changes (unless done nicely) Holes cut in the door panels and rear quarters is not what I call done nicely LOL
etc...etc...
Fritz, is it weird that as tempting of an offer that is, I can't bring myself to sell my 94 touring SSM / red interior (red seats and carpet, black panels) with approx 7500 miles?
To think that just years ago, I would have jumped on it but I can't bring myself to do so the longer I own the car. I don't think I could sell until a) I am ready to move on or b) it's an insane amount of money! Just something about the newness of a low mileage unmolested FD that puts a smile on my face.
Last edited by fdpocketrocket; Nov 22, 2017 at 08:41 PM.
Fritz, is it weird that as tempting of an offer that is, I can't bring myself to sell my 94 touring SSM / red interior (red seats and carpet, black panels) with approx 7500 miles?
To think that just years ago, I would have jumped on it but I can't bring myself to do so the longer I own the car. I don't think I could sell until a) I am ready to move on or b) it's an insane amount of money! Just something about the newness of a low mileage unmolested FD that puts a smile on my face.
I hear you
The price for my VR R2 with 25k miles just went from 35k to 37,500 LOL
I'd like a nice base/R2 94 or 95 with under 10k miles
We are definitely getting into the 40's for really prime cars.
I'll let you know because I'll pay 40 for the right one
Still haven't seen or known of a typical nice low mileage FD selling for north of 35k but I'm sure that some have I just don't know about it. I know, I know, rumor has it the one in plastic wrap with zero to 5 miles sold for 75k
Having those seats is a solid $4-5,000 of the price.
They are bride seats not oem RZs but regardless I think the price was fair in the current market and again it's the most expensive FD that I REALLY know the price of (non rumor).
Prior to this year the most I ever paid was 27k for Wael's CYM (along with tons of parts etc...) over 10 years ago and that car likely had 50k invested in it.
No doubt the FD is and will be a strong import collector but dealers paying 29 and asking 50k is a little bit too much too fast LOL
Just spoke to this Japanese mechanic that works on Ferraris and other high end cars in Japan on the other day. Told him I have an FD. He then asked me if they are worth 40-50k USD yet. He is definitely on to something. I told him no but its getting there.
Now that we're finally acknowledging that really nice FD's are selling for $35,000 plus, let's all be sure we have stated/agreed value insurance on our cars? (I really experienced the benefit of that with my recent accident.)
YEP!
REALLY nice sub 20k r1/r2/CW/94,95 base models are easy 40k cars at this time.
I posted some of this information in another thread, but probably the discussion would be better here. Basically this is my take on the 3rd Gen RX-7 market.
So, is the third generation a collectable classic car? The following is my take on how to identify a classic or an emerging classic. This is based on my experience with the BMW cassic car scene . At this point in time no one familiar with BMWs would argue that the 2002tii is not classic collectable car. They have all the attributes, limited volume, special edition, unique high output engine, good handling, and classic boxy sports sedan looks. Pretty much at the end of its production it became a sought after car to BMW enthusiasts. So, empirically how do you identify a classic collectable? Well, look at its price history. The classic car market is traditionally divided into 4 tiers here are Hagerty's descriptions of each tier:
Concours – These are the top show cars of the group they are perfect, never driven with only original to the car OEM parts, no substitutions allowed, you can see examples at the top concours events around the country. Excellent – These are the cars that are capable of winning regional concours. They are nearly perfect with only a few minor flaws that only an expert would be able to identify. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would but is in much better condition! Good – These cars look show room new inside and out, have low mileage, and are nearly stock cars. They may have some incorrect parts that are not visible to the casual observer. The driving experience would be like taking a 2-3 year old car out for a spin. They are not used for daily transportation, but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and a casual passerby will not find any visual flaws compared to a brand new showroom car. Fair – These vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present.
Now, here is a brief price history of a 1974 BMW 2002tii. It is fairly typical of a collectable car. Notice as you go from Fair to Concours the price gaps between the levels goes up dramatically. For example in 2008 the difference between Fair and Good was 25%, but the difference between Excellent and Concours is 51%. Excellent and Concours are collector cars fetching collector prices which are far above the daily driver prices. These are the cars everyone talks about and covets. And almost all owners will tell you that a tii is worth over $50k.
Now, let’s look at the 1994 RX-7. In 2009 we have a rather compressed price scale, the difference between Fair and good was 28% and between Concours and Excellent was 28%. In 2008 a 1994 RX-7 was defiantly not a collector’s car based on its price structure. But, look what’s happening starting in 2014. The prices for Concours and Excellent conditions cars are pulling away from the Fair and Good cars. The price increases are larger than the normal inflation found in established classic cars like the 2002tii.
My take is this car has been discovered by collectors and they are bidding up the prices of the collectable inventory. If this trend continues we can mark this as the beginning of a collector’s car market. I would expect that within 5-10 years no one will be wondering if a 1994 RX-7 is collectable, and prices will be similar to those of the BMW 2002tii. Now, for the bad news, or maybe the good news. Look at the Fair condition cars for both the RX-7 and BMW, they do not go up much. You can still get a 2002tii for 10-20k, put in a lot of your own labor, time and money, and have a like new show room car. So, yes RX-7s are now at the dawn of collectability and in a few years we will all be telling people that RX-7s sell for over $60,000. If you have a pristine car you’ll be able to tell your grandkids you bought one when they were only $10k, or you’ll tell them that you wish you had kept your RX-7 instead of selling it in ‘18… the mistake is yours to make!
Thanks for the very interesting analysis. Based on the description categories above, it would seem that many RX7 are, in fact, being sold well-overpriced.
Or is it that the actual near concours cars are very much underpriced?
Based on the above descriptions, I'll have to come to grips that my car is not, in fact, a collector car.
But on the otherhand, I would not want to own something that I'd have to daily drive even more cautiously than I do now.
I would guess my car is a good-fair, but slowly becoming more unfair everyday.
I posted some of this information in another thread, but probably the discussion would be better here. Basically this is my take on the 3rd Gen RX-7 market.
So, is the third generation a collectable classic car? The following is my take on how to identify a classic or an emerging classic. This is based on my experience with the BMW cassic car scene . At this point in time no one familiar with BMWs would argue that the 2002tii is not classic collectable car. They have all the attributes, limited volume, special edition, unique high output engine, good handling, and classic boxy sports sedan looks. Pretty much at the end of its production it became a sought after car to BMW enthusiasts. So, empirically how do you identify a classic collectable? Well, look at its price history. The classic car market is traditionally divided into 4 tiers here are Hagerty's descriptions of each tier:
Concours – These are the top show cars of the group they are perfect, never driven with only original to the car OEM parts, no substitutions allowed, you can see examples at the top concours events around the country. Excellent – These are the cars that are capable of winning regional concours. They are nearly perfect with only a few minor flaws that only an expert would be able to identify. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would but is in much better condition! Good – These cars look show room new inside and out, have low mileage, and are nearly stock cars. They may have some incorrect parts that are not visible to the casual observer. The driving experience would be like taking a 2-3 year old car out for a spin. They are not used for daily transportation, but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and a casual passerby will not find any visual flaws compared to a brand new showroom car. Fair – These vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present.
Now, here is a brief price history of a 1974 BMW 2002tii. It is fairly typical of a collectable car. Notice as you go from Fair to Concours the price gaps between the levels goes up dramatically. For example in 2008 the difference between Fair and Good was 25%, but the difference between Excellent and Concours is 51%. Excellent and Concours are collector cars fetching collector prices which are far above the daily driver prices. These are the cars everyone talks about and covets. And almost all owners will tell you that a tii is worth over $50k.
Now, let’s look at the 1994 RX-7. In 2009 we have a rather compressed price scale, the difference between Fair and good was 28% and between Concours and Excellent was 28%. In 2008 a 1994 RX-7 was defiantly not a collector’s car based on its price structure. But, look what’s happening starting in 2014. The prices for Concours and Excellent conditions cars are pulling away from the Fair and Good cars. The price increases are larger than the normal inflation found in established classic cars like the 2002tii.
My take is this car has been discovered by collectors and they are bidding up the prices of the collectable inventory. If this trend continues we can mark this as the beginning of a collector’s car market. I would expect that within 5-10 years no one will be wondering if a 1994 RX-7 is collectable, and prices will be similar to those of the BMW 2002tii. Now, for the bad news, or maybe the good news. Look at the Fair condition cars for both the RX-7 and BMW, they do not go up much. You can still get a 2002tii for 10-20k, put in a lot of your own labor, time and money, and have a like new show room car. So, yes RX-7s are now at the dawn of collectability and in a few years we will all be telling people that RX-7s sell for over $60,000. If you have a pristine car you’ll be able to tell your grandkids you bought one when they were only $10k, or you’ll tell them that you wish you had kept your RX-7 instead of selling it in ‘18… the mistake is yours to make!
Exactly! People/collectors/dealers are trying to make a buck on low mileage FDs and it's a good move as you can still find deals or fairly nice low mileage FDs for 25k to 30k. However trying to flip for 40 or 50k could prove to be a challenge short term.
These prices mentioned by hagerty are a little behind the times but were spot on last year.
Note the concours FD that just sold on this forum for 30k (sold in a couple of days so it likely could have sold for a bit more) VR touring with black interior.
I'd say an R2 or CW Base concours FD today is 40k. I know because I'll buy one for 40k and I know others who also will What I won't buy is any FD for a penny more UNLESS it's extremely modified with everything I want and concours LOL
Excellent FDs are 30k.
Good FDs are 25k
Fair FDs are 10 to 15k and always will be
Nicely modded and highly maintained FDs could easily be worth a 10k premium. Adam's car is the perfect example.
Model, color and year for good condition FDs will also start to make a really big difference and we are beginning to see that now.
We've already discussed it but currently I see the value as it relates to model and color something like this:
CW base 94 or 95 is top of the food chain
Followed by SSM R2
CYM but hard to sell (in other words the right buyer will pay but not many out there)
BB or VR R2
CW PEG or PEP
95 SSM, BB PEP
SSM, BB, VR, MB base 94 or 95 in that order
95 VR, MB PEP
SSM base
SSM
BB R1
VR R1
SSM touring
BB touring
VR touring
MB touring
BB,VR, MB with tan interior in that order
So the least valuable FDs are the MB and VR touring with tan interior and the most valuable is a CW base 95. It's crazy but all things being equal there is an easy 10k spread between them and it will only get bigger.
Auto trans likely reduces the value of most by at least 5k.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Nov 30, 2017 at 08:55 AM.
Data points for RHD in Canada are hard to accumulate, but likely the market here is priced more closely off the Japan auction prices, plus shipping, taxes and V.I. and brokers fees (if any).
There have been anecdotal trades recently of RHD around C$15,000, which is bumping up against Frtiz's lower ranges for USDM. Although such cars may have had some sort of special interest (i.e. 1992, 1999 or Limited Edition), they likely would have a hard time ranking better than "Fair" on that Haggerty scale (imo). Buyers of those cars, likely, consciously, or unconsciously, are expecting to pay a further C$10,000 to get the cars decently and reliably driveable.
One might conjecture, therefore, that Canadians might be paying a premium over what the American market might accept for RHD, and likely reflects the greater acceptance of RHD in Canada (and scarcity of LHD). However, it could also foreshadow price behaviour in the US, once more 1990s RHD JDM of all sorts start showing up on the streets in the US.
The list prices on EBAY are WAY off. None of these cars are going to sell until the sellers price them to sell. Ebay used to be the place to find bargains. Now folks want you to pay a premium for an auction vehicle LOL
Over-rated?