separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 415
Likes: 8
From: Treasure coast
[QUOTE=Howard Coleman CPR;10367989]"....i do not at present have an answer to my significant problem. the engine shows close to normal vacuum at idle but has been progressively losing power with each pull. it started at about 400 rw at 15 psi and is down to 260.
140 horses is alot of loss."
Wow!!. All else in good shape, either a cat or possom and its litter is blocking the exhaust or the trailing fuel mix is combusting working against the power stroke.
140 horses is alot of loss."
Wow!!. All else in good shape, either a cat or possom and its litter is blocking the exhaust or the trailing fuel mix is combusting working against the power stroke.
Last edited by Clubuser; Dec 16, 2010 at 11:03 AM.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 2
From: RI
after reading howards post i decided to take my old als apex seals with 500 miles on them to a cnc shop to find out what was up with them. this happened early this year to where i broke in the engine for about 300 miles, then low boost 5 psi or less for the next hundred. i then turned up the boost to 19-20psi. did a few long pulls and then the car was stalling coming to a stop, also was very hard to hot start. i then did a compression test to find 60 psi on all faces on both rotors. i pulled then engine and then just took a quick look at the seals and noticed them bent my eye.
well after taking them to a machine shop today i found out they were worn out. they are .004 inch shorter on the center, which seems like a normal bend so far. until the underside was also checked and was .001 across the seal. top side was considered worn out as the underside of the seal is completely flat and not bent.
well after taking them to a machine shop today i found out they were worn out. they are .004 inch shorter on the center, which seems like a normal bend so far. until the underside was also checked and was .001 across the seal. top side was considered worn out as the underside of the seal is completely flat and not bent.
after reading howards post i decided to take my old als apex seals with 500 miles on them to a cnc shop to find out what was up with them. this happened early this year to where i broke in the engine for about 300 miles, then low boost 5 psi or less for the next hundred. i then turned up the boost to 19-20psi. did a few long pulls and then the car was stalling coming to a stop, also was very hard to hot start. i then did a compression test to find 60 psi on all faces on both rotors. i pulled then engine and then just took a quick look at the seals and noticed them bent my eye.
well after taking them to a machine shop today i found out they were worn out. they are .004 inch shorter on the center, which seems like a normal bend so far. until the underside was also checked and was .001 across the seal. top side was considered worn out as the underside of the seal is completely flat and not bent.
well after taking them to a machine shop today i found out they were worn out. they are .004 inch shorter on the center, which seems like a normal bend so far. until the underside was also checked and was .001 across the seal. top side was considered worn out as the underside of the seal is completely flat and not bent.
Ive had one instance, just two weeks ago where a respected shop had problems with 2 of the ALS seals bending in the apex seal grooves. This is the first issue I had seen in nearly 2 years of building and selling these seals. I know Edgar sells around 100 sets of these seals a month and several shops are running these seals so it is surprising to suddenly see this info.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 2
From: RI
motor was built by me and also tuned by me. i have built and tuned several cars locally. i installed these seals after i had a set of stock mazda seals for 10k miles in there. i managed to put a hairline crack in one of the mazda seals because i was getting greedy on race gas. i was running 16 IGL with a 6 split at 22-23psi. i then did the motor over with als seals and brought the timing back to 10 IGL with a 12 split at 20psi. all on c16 race fuel. i then took the car out and it lost compression on all faces and both rotors. figured i bent the seals which it apeared, i did with a quick check and i just put them aside. after seeing this thread i decided to have them checked and the outcome was that they were worn down. my current motor ( which is still the same plates and housings as always ) is running RA superseals. i have spoke with another reputable tuner and builder with his outcome being that RA superseals are the best out of these bendable seals for a street car. as for long term nothing beats the stock seals. unfortunetly there is no perfect all around seal as the RA seal will put some wear on the housings at 20k miles with hefty premix.
D. Jerome, Why dont you get Edgar to chime in here?
No offense but if I was to have tuned my current motor I bet I too would be trying another seal next.
We should take this to the ALS thread so we dont junk up Howards stuff.
No offense but if I was to have tuned my current motor I bet I too would be trying another seal next.
We should take this to the ALS thread so we dont junk up Howards stuff.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 2
From: RI
??? What does me tuning it make the seal wear out. I pulled timing out and was running pretty rich. No signs of detonation. Just lost compression plain and simple. Just because you can not tune your own car does not mean others can not. I posted this in here after reading Howards issue . So I had the seals checked and they were worn rather then bent. Maybe a few bad batches are out there. Don't know.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
Howard got a question for you.
Do you think a GTX3582R with a Tial 1.06 exhaust housing will be ok with a 13b with Bridge Ports and E85? Thinking that the exhaust housing might be too small?
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
Edit:Oh aiming for 500rwhp with E85.
JT
Do you think a GTX3582R with a Tial 1.06 exhaust housing will be ok with a 13b with Bridge Ports and E85? Thinking that the exhaust housing might be too small?
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
Edit:Oh aiming for 500rwhp with E85.
JT
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
update:
we are now back to moving ahead. i am confident my motor problem is understood. as i may have mentioned, when i disassembled my motor i confirmed that much of the primary injector diffuser in the rear rotor was missing.
i didn't give it too much thought as i figured when they were looking in the motor w the scope thru the primary injector hole they had broken it.
i was scratching my head as the motor came apart as the pieces weren't sitting at the bottom of the rotor housing chamber.
actually some of the diffuser ended up melted and attached to the apex seals.
causing the apex seals to not be free to move in their grooves... which caused the chatter and modestly flatted leading edge crowns... and the loss of alot of compression/power.
so it is NOT the apex seals that caused the problem... it was the diffuser.
which is consistant w my stated opinion that most apex seals will work well if properly installed, supported w AI and properly tuned.
no apex seals will work well if they have improper groove clearance. and it may be that the ALS seals, being a bit more malleable i am told, resisted breakage and saved my primary motor parts.
interestingly i found a small amount of the diffuser attached to the apex seal in the front rotor. this is due to the reversion of the intake charge caused by the abrupt port close as the rotor sweeps by the intake. the intake charge which had been rocketing into the chamber is stopped and bounces back perhaps as far as the throttle plates. it then reverses (as the port reopens) and a portion ends up in the other chamber.
the motor is sort of a food blender much of which mixes in the plenum.
so we move forward. my housings will be done by Cam this coming thurs/fri and be back the following week. i would guess we will be firing it up the first week of the New Year.
it would be great is someone could explain why the diffuser went bye bye. it was properly/carefully installed. the top of it is still sitting nicely in it's seat. the two supportive legs are completely missing as is the plate at the bottom.
howard
we are now back to moving ahead. i am confident my motor problem is understood. as i may have mentioned, when i disassembled my motor i confirmed that much of the primary injector diffuser in the rear rotor was missing.
i didn't give it too much thought as i figured when they were looking in the motor w the scope thru the primary injector hole they had broken it.
i was scratching my head as the motor came apart as the pieces weren't sitting at the bottom of the rotor housing chamber.
actually some of the diffuser ended up melted and attached to the apex seals.
causing the apex seals to not be free to move in their grooves... which caused the chatter and modestly flatted leading edge crowns... and the loss of alot of compression/power.
so it is NOT the apex seals that caused the problem... it was the diffuser.
which is consistant w my stated opinion that most apex seals will work well if properly installed, supported w AI and properly tuned.
no apex seals will work well if they have improper groove clearance. and it may be that the ALS seals, being a bit more malleable i am told, resisted breakage and saved my primary motor parts.
interestingly i found a small amount of the diffuser attached to the apex seal in the front rotor. this is due to the reversion of the intake charge caused by the abrupt port close as the rotor sweeps by the intake. the intake charge which had been rocketing into the chamber is stopped and bounces back perhaps as far as the throttle plates. it then reverses (as the port reopens) and a portion ends up in the other chamber.
the motor is sort of a food blender much of which mixes in the plenum.
so we move forward. my housings will be done by Cam this coming thurs/fri and be back the following week. i would guess we will be firing it up the first week of the New Year.
it would be great is someone could explain why the diffuser went bye bye. it was properly/carefully installed. the top of it is still sitting nicely in it's seat. the two supportive legs are completely missing as is the plate at the bottom.
howard
Good to hear you found the problem Howard. Wonder if the added flow that a streetport + bigger turbo creates + that reversion you were talking about puts greater stress on the injector diffusers.
thewird
thewird
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
Now the biggest issue for me is since i will be running E85 is to get the exhaust gasses away and not get any backpressure. I had a T04z before with 1.16 housing and it generated 15 psi at 3000 rpm with the same engine. What i would like is the same kind of response, maybe 15 psi at 3300-3500 rpm.
Gonna have a look at the precision turbo but i kinda like the Garrett turbos best. As i have had to many ppl with problems with other turbos.
Howard any thoughts?
JT
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
"Do you think a GTX3582R with a Tial 1.06 exhaust housing will be ok with a 13b with Bridge Ports and E85? Thinking that the exhaust housing might be too small?
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
aiming for 500rwhp with E85."
500 hp is 960 CFM = 66 pounds per minute.
the new GTX35 as per the comp map can make 76 pounds per minute or 1099 CFM which is 572 rotary rw SAE hp. further, it makes 68 pounds at 14.7 psi and is spinning at a leisurely 100,000 rpm.
another feature i like is it has a modest trim so it should spool really well.
so the cold side is well matched for your objectives. the hotside is another story. my GT4094r doesn't have a really great hot to cold ratio at 78.5% but so far i have found it spools really really well. full boost around 3750. the GTX is 79.3% so it should spool the same or better. of course you need a good hotside housing.
i would be listening to Sean on that score.
with a turn in my luck we will be adding some data to the hotside question shortly,,, certainly way before the snow melts in our backyards.
howard
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
aiming for 500rwhp with E85."
500 hp is 960 CFM = 66 pounds per minute.
the new GTX35 as per the comp map can make 76 pounds per minute or 1099 CFM which is 572 rotary rw SAE hp. further, it makes 68 pounds at 14.7 psi and is spinning at a leisurely 100,000 rpm.
another feature i like is it has a modest trim so it should spool really well.
so the cold side is well matched for your objectives. the hotside is another story. my GT4094r doesn't have a really great hot to cold ratio at 78.5% but so far i have found it spools really really well. full boost around 3750. the GTX is 79.3% so it should spool the same or better. of course you need a good hotside housing.
i would be listening to Sean on that score.
with a turn in my luck we will be adding some data to the hotside question shortly,,, certainly way before the snow melts in our backyards.
howard
update:
we are now back to moving ahead. i am confident my motor problem is understood. as i may have mentioned, when i disassembled my motor i confirmed that much of the primary injector diffuser in the rear rotor was missing.
i didn't give it too much thought as i figured when they were looking in the motor w the scope thru the primary injector hole they had broken it.
i was scratching my head as the motor came apart as the pieces weren't sitting at the bottom of the rotor housing chamber.
actually some of the diffuser ended up melted and attached to the apex seals.
causing the apex seals to not be free to move in their grooves... which caused the chatter and modestly flatted leading edge crowns... and the loss of alot of compression/power.
so it is NOT the apex seals that caused the problem... it was the diffuser.
which is consistant w my stated opinion that most apex seals will work well if properly installed, supported w AI and properly tuned.
no apex seals will work well if they have improper groove clearance. and it may be that the ALS seals, being a bit more malleable i am told, resisted breakage and saved my primary motor parts.
interestingly i found a small amount of the diffuser attached to the apex seal in the front rotor. this is due to the reversion of the intake charge caused by the abrupt port close as the rotor sweeps by the intake. the intake charge which had been rocketing into the chamber is stopped and bounces back perhaps as far as the throttle plates. it then reverses (as the port reopens) and a portion ends up in the other chamber.
the motor is sort of a food blender much of which mixes in the plenum.
so we move forward. my housings will be done by Cam this coming thurs/fri and be back the following week. i would guess we will be firing it up the first week of the New Year.
it would be great is someone could explain why the diffuser went bye bye. it was properly/carefully installed. the top of it is still sitting nicely in it's seat. the two supportive legs are completely missing as is the plate at the bottom.
howard
we are now back to moving ahead. i am confident my motor problem is understood. as i may have mentioned, when i disassembled my motor i confirmed that much of the primary injector diffuser in the rear rotor was missing.
i didn't give it too much thought as i figured when they were looking in the motor w the scope thru the primary injector hole they had broken it.
i was scratching my head as the motor came apart as the pieces weren't sitting at the bottom of the rotor housing chamber.
actually some of the diffuser ended up melted and attached to the apex seals.
causing the apex seals to not be free to move in their grooves... which caused the chatter and modestly flatted leading edge crowns... and the loss of alot of compression/power.
so it is NOT the apex seals that caused the problem... it was the diffuser.
which is consistant w my stated opinion that most apex seals will work well if properly installed, supported w AI and properly tuned.
no apex seals will work well if they have improper groove clearance. and it may be that the ALS seals, being a bit more malleable i am told, resisted breakage and saved my primary motor parts.
interestingly i found a small amount of the diffuser attached to the apex seal in the front rotor. this is due to the reversion of the intake charge caused by the abrupt port close as the rotor sweeps by the intake. the intake charge which had been rocketing into the chamber is stopped and bounces back perhaps as far as the throttle plates. it then reverses (as the port reopens) and a portion ends up in the other chamber.
the motor is sort of a food blender much of which mixes in the plenum.
so we move forward. my housings will be done by Cam this coming thurs/fri and be back the following week. i would guess we will be firing it up the first week of the New Year.
it would be great is someone could explain why the diffuser went bye bye. it was properly/carefully installed. the top of it is still sitting nicely in it's seat. the two supportive legs are completely missing as is the plate at the bottom.
howard
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
at one bar...
TO4Z 60 pounds w 68% effic
GTX35 63 pounds w 68% effic
68 pounds w 65% effic
of course we don't know re the Precision 67 mm as no maps... given the many dyno runs and quarter mile times i am sure they do well.
hc
TO4Z 60 pounds w 68% effic
GTX35 63 pounds w 68% effic
68 pounds w 65% effic
of course we don't know re the Precision 67 mm as no maps... given the many dyno runs and quarter mile times i am sure they do well.
hc
Howard, if your interested, I can send you my old billet 6765 if you'd like to compare it with your other turbo's. It has the S cover and the turbonetics 1.00 divided hotside. I've purchased another 6765 with the H cover for my new fully divided twin wastegate manifold.
The only problems I heard about Precision turbo's usually ended up being improper setup. Also, I've been hearing a lot lately about Garrett cheaping out but thats another matter and depends who you believe.
I've had zero problems with my Precision 6765 @ 20-29 PSi on the track (road coarse). The 29 PSi's were spikes due to wastegate failure. Gotta love fuel cut
thewird
I've had zero problems with my Precision 6765 @ 20-29 PSi on the track (road coarse). The 29 PSi's were spikes due to wastegate failure. Gotta love fuel cut
thewird
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
"Do you think a GTX3582R with a Tial 1.06 exhaust housing will be ok with a 13b with Bridge Ports and E85? Thinking that the exhaust housing might be too small?
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
aiming for 500rwhp with E85."
500 hp is 960 CFM = 66 pounds per minute.
the new GTX35 as per the comp map can make 76 pounds per minute or 1099 CFM which is 572 rotary rw SAE hp. further, it makes 68 pounds at 14.7 psi and is spinning at a leisurely 100,000 rpm.
another feature i like is it has a modest trim so it should spool really well.
so the cold side is well matched for your objectives. the hotside is another story. my GT4094r doesn't have a really great hot to cold ratio at 78.5% but so far i have found it spools really really well. full boost around 3750. the GTX is 79.3% so it should spool the same or better. of course you need a good hotside housing.
i would be listening to Sean on that score.
with a turn in my luck we will be adding some data to the hotside question shortly,,, certainly way before the snow melts in our backyards.
howard
Or would it be similar to a GT4088R exhaust housing? Was thinking about this turbo but Tial does not deliver a exhaust housing for this turbo.
Want the smaller housing for the extra room inbetween the LIM and turbo.
aiming for 500rwhp with E85."
500 hp is 960 CFM = 66 pounds per minute.
the new GTX35 as per the comp map can make 76 pounds per minute or 1099 CFM which is 572 rotary rw SAE hp. further, it makes 68 pounds at 14.7 psi and is spinning at a leisurely 100,000 rpm.
another feature i like is it has a modest trim so it should spool really well.
so the cold side is well matched for your objectives. the hotside is another story. my GT4094r doesn't have a really great hot to cold ratio at 78.5% but so far i have found it spools really really well. full boost around 3750. the GTX is 79.3% so it should spool the same or better. of course you need a good hotside housing.
i would be listening to Sean on that score.
with a turn in my luck we will be adding some data to the hotside question shortly,,, certainly way before the snow melts in our backyards.
howard
Gonna order a turbo in january i hope. And then get it all hooked up. Not sure about the size of the downpipe either. thinking either 3.5" or 4". Worried the 4" will be too big tho.
JT
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,800
Likes: 646
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
Howard, these were brand new diffusers? I know of two engines (one back in my Gotham days, one more recently) that failed mysteriously while cruising with minimal load. In both cases the original diffusers fell apart and completely trashed the engine internals.... I'm talking zero compression.
Because of this we insist on new diffusers on all customer builds unless they've recently been replaced, and I must admit my injector setup of all top feed with nothing plastic underneath does make me sleep a bit better at night
Because of this we insist on new diffusers on all customer builds unless they've recently been replaced, and I must admit my injector setup of all top feed with nothing plastic underneath does make me sleep a bit better at night
I know they help atomize the fuel but I don't use the diffusers at all anymore. Even though the risk of them breaking is small I still become worried with PLASTIC being introduced with what we could consider partial internal affairs or the coolant system. That and injectors these days work quite well. Am I the only one that removes them completely???
Howard, slightly off topic but have you every though of reading post turbo egt's? I know your general basis for building the manifold was to keep the heat loss to a minimum but I'm wondering how much heat the rotary put's into the turbo. I'm sure we'll see a MUCH higher post egt drop with the smaller turbos. I just think it would be a nice cost/benefit analysis for someone looking into the spool gains of the smaller turbos.
Furthermore, it's also old news that the rotary uses oil to for nearly half of our engines cooling function. We're right now pushing the "power limits" even further we might want to look into what we're doing to the oil's lubrication abilities and more importantly what our engines are battling with.I apologize though as this thread is about turbos...
So will the ceramics go back in or will you continue to use the ALS seals as a tuning/act of god buffer?
Howard, slightly off topic but have you every though of reading post turbo egt's? I know your general basis for building the manifold was to keep the heat loss to a minimum but I'm wondering how much heat the rotary put's into the turbo. I'm sure we'll see a MUCH higher post egt drop with the smaller turbos. I just think it would be a nice cost/benefit analysis for someone looking into the spool gains of the smaller turbos.
Furthermore, it's also old news that the rotary uses oil to for nearly half of our engines cooling function. We're right now pushing the "power limits" even further we might want to look into what we're doing to the oil's lubrication abilities and more importantly what our engines are battling with.I apologize though as this thread is about turbos...
So will the ceramics go back in or will you continue to use the ALS seals as a tuning/act of god buffer?
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
Have them removed on all engines with bigger injectors as they would not fit with the diffusers.
But this scares me tbh.
JT
talking head
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 15
From: Perth, WA, OZ
+1 for no diffusers in my personal engines for many years
i have pulled down a few jap engines with the bits missing or ready to let go
if i am upping the top mount injectors in others engines
i usually turn to blueprinted rochies with inbuilt spray diffusers and so the mazda diffusers go straight to the bin
usually you just make up the height differences with extra injector base seals
( two if removing the two piece diffusers )
i have pulled down a few jap engines with the bits missing or ready to let go
if i am upping the top mount injectors in others engines
i usually turn to blueprinted rochies with inbuilt spray diffusers and so the mazda diffusers go straight to the bin
usually you just make up the height differences with extra injector base seals
( two if removing the two piece diffusers )
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
So i got an email from Tial last night about the flow in the Tial 1.06 exhaust housing for the GTX35 turbo. It's rated at 32-33lb/min. How would this work with the upgraded compressor map on the GTX35 turbo? Will it flow enough to get the exhaust out, or would you need a big *** wg to get the exhaust out?
Spoke to Sean as well. He asked a few questions and i sendt him a reply so hopefully i will get a answer to my questions.
I don't want a turbo that spools way to fast and runs out of juice in the top end. Even tho i would not mind 15 psi from 3000 rpm and that it keeps max boost untill 8500 rpm. But that is just too much of a hope.
Looking forward to your tests again howard. Are you going to put the engine back together with NRS seals again or?
Spoke to Sean as well. He asked a few questions and i sendt him a reply so hopefully i will get a answer to my questions.
I don't want a turbo that spools way to fast and runs out of juice in the top end. Even tho i would not mind 15 psi from 3000 rpm and that it keeps max boost untill 8500 rpm. But that is just too much of a hope.
Looking forward to your tests again howard. Are you going to put the engine back together with NRS seals again or?