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SCCA Manditory Head and Neck Restraints

Old 11-21-08, 09:41 PM
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SCCA Manditory Head and Neck Restraints

From December '08 Fastrack, Page 9:
MEMBER ADVISORIES
4. Driver safety equipment The CRB would like input from the membership about whether head and neck restraints should be made mandatory.

Write your letters guys. Its YOUR club. They WILL mandate a 38.1 device on you. $700 SFI device, + $800 winged seat + $100 Right side net = $1600 out of your pocket.

(now before anyone flames me, I'm ALL for HNR's, just don't tell me which one I HAVE to buy)

http://rsicommunity.org/
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/product.html

[email protected]
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Old 11-22-08, 07:55 AM
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I hadn't kept up with Fastrack this month, thanks for the heads up, input against sent.
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Old 11-22-08, 10:31 AM
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The 38.1 requirement is really annoying because the ISAAC device looks really good but it can't pass the requirement.
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Old 11-23-08, 08:19 AM
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I know several racers who have stopped racing with NASA since they enacted this rule. I will pass it along and vote against.
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Old 11-24-08, 04:11 PM
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The problem as I see is it, that a good portion of racers do not take safety seriously. The crap that passess as safety gear and the lack of accountability or rules enforcement is pathetic. An annual tech for car and driving gear, that is a friggin joke!!!

When people abuse something, this is the type of over reaction you can expect.
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Old 11-25-08, 04:44 PM
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Copy and paste from another message board:

---

The next three things I will write are absolutely true and, in and of themselves, should constitute a reason to choose the HANS Professional:

a) In 1988 I was struck by a ten-wheeled Mack lumber truck doing approximately 50mph, knocked off my BMX bicycle, thrown through the back wheels, struck in the neck by the rear bumper of the truck, which dug and dragged me for well over 100 feet. In the course of this hilarious accident, I completely fractured my second cervical vertebrae. This diagram shows where it was:



I was told at the time that my neck would never completely heal and that the next serious impact I took to my neck would promptly "quad" me for life.

b) On July 13, 2008, a Spec Focus hit me in the right rear corner and turned my car ninety degrees. At the time of the impact I was almost certainly traveling in excess of 85 miles per hour. The impact destroyed a piece of Armco and rubbed the front off the car.

c) I was able to continue to operate the vehicle after the impact, extricate myself from the car afterwards, stand around for five hours until that [edited because this is a public forum which appears on Google] arrived to render his idiotic verdict, and then push my car onto the trailer. Other than mild soreness in my neck for a week afterwards, I suffered no ill effects and certainly am not blowing a motorized wheelchair around the strip clubs.

The end.
----


Complaining that no other devices meet the spec is like complaining that a bike helmet doesn't meet SA2005 specs. There's a reason for that.
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Old 11-25-08, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by peejay View Post
Complaining that no other devices meet the spec is like complaining that a bike helmet doesn't meet SA2005 specs. There's a reason for that.
That's incorrect. The ISAAC looks like it provides excellent protection compared to other designs, especially in a side impact, and has sound theory and engineering to back it up. The reason it won't pass the spec is because it does not have a single point of release as required in the SFI spec. This is a silly requirement because the ISAAC attaches to the shoulder harness belts and the first thing the EV crew is going to do to get you out of the car is cut those suckers off.
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Old 11-26-08, 12:33 PM
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You're assuming that the belts can be *got* to.

I recall one incident where a rally co-driver was stuck in his car for 45 minutes, slowly bleeding out, while they tried to figure out how to get him out of his belt. They couldn't GET to the belts on the tunnel side of the car. If you can't cut the inner shoulder harness, you can still slide the driver out (assuming you can cut the crotch straps) but a support that attaches to the belt would prevent that.

I realize that this doesn't mean much to SCCA (anymore) but given the number of people who have flown off of road courses at high speed in the past couple months, it may still be a legitimate concern...
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Old 11-26-08, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dbgeek View Post
I know several racers who have stopped racing with NASA since they enacted this rule. I will pass it along and vote against.
I do not understand this. The cost of a HANS device and a side net is what, $900? Let's say $1000 for the both? This is your life we are talking about at the end of the day, is it really worth arguing about this for the sake of a grand?

I am all for these changes. I am always stunned by the level of safety gear some people use despite having spent large amounts of money on their racecar.
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Old 11-26-08, 03:14 PM
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***I do not understand this. The cost of a HANS device and a side net is what, $900? Let's say $1000 for the both? This is your life we are talking about at the end of the day, is it really worth arguing about this for the sake of a grand?***

Yes, because the safety net is a almost worthless piece of $hit just as the window net is not ment to be a inside the car safety item. It's ment to keep stuff from outside the car comming inside the car & the HANS by it's self eliminates very little side load. BUT it's SFI rated which means zip because the are funded by the manufactures of HANS & other products & that rating spec was generated by the HANS people. Please find the specs for the HANS & for the Isaac & forgeting about the SFI 38.1 crap tell me which device will better protect the driver with no extra support stuff. Also while your into looking up data please find data from the SCCA road racing that sugests that these head & neck restraints are necessary for SCCA crashes.

I own a h & n restraint which is neither here nor there.
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Old 11-26-08, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by David Dewhurst View Post
***I do not understand this. The cost of a HANS device and a side net is what, $900? Let's say $1000 for the both? This is your life we are talking about at the end of the day, is it really worth arguing about this for the sake of a grand?***

Yes, because the safety net is a almost worthless piece of $hit just as the window net is not ment to be a inside the car safety item. It's ment to keep stuff from outside the car comming inside the car & the HANS by it's self eliminates very little side load. BUT it's SFI rated which means zip because the are funded by the manufactures of HANS & other products & that rating spec was generated by the HANS people. Please find the specs for the HANS & for the Isaac & forgeting about the SFI 38.1 crap tell me which device will better protect the driver with no extra support stuff. Also while your into looking up data please find data from the SCCA road racing that sugests that these head & neck restraints are necessary for SCCA crashes.

I own a h & n restraint which is neither here nor there.
The window net is supposed to prevent your arms and any other parts of your body from being outside of the vehicle in a roll over. I am sure it serves a dual purpose of preventing stuff coming into the car as well. The side net, I don't really know much about it's value, but an HR seat should be on the list of safety equipment you should have anyway which makes it somewhat moot.

Is it really your argument that a HANS device is not 'necessary' for SCCA crashes therefore they are worthless? I am not arguing for against the HANS vs Isaac devices, just that mandating safety equipment like this is a good thing in the long run. The reason the Isaac is not SFI 38.1 is clearly stated above as not having a single point of release, so not sure where you are going with the "HANS has the SFI in their pocket" argument.
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Old 11-26-08, 04:11 PM
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i think the HANS is pretty well proven, its been used for years in just about any other form of motorsport. the driver usually walks away.

the right hand interior window net seems kinda useless, but whatever.
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Old 11-26-08, 06:16 PM
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***Please find the specs for the HANS & for the Isaac & forgeting about the SFI 38.1 crap tell me which device will better protect the driver with no extra support stuff.***

thetech, lets take this one small step at a time. Find the above info & forget about the SFI 38.1 specifications (they are not in play within the SCCA today or do I beleive in the short term future). After reading the published safety/protection specifications which device offers the better protection?

Below is why I call the SFI 38.1 specification crap. The whole SFI Foundation is a marketing organisation bought & paid for by manufactures of the HANS & other products.

***SFI spins-off from SEMA

Although a proud beginning, SFI now operates as a foundation independent from SEMA, yet dependent on all segments of the industry it serves, both for funding and participation. SFI maintains its own managerial staff and oversees technical committees. The Foundation is funded by companies which voluntarily participate in the specs program, along with financial support from member sanctioning bodies. As a result of this support, SFI has developed programs for almost eighty different products used by manufacturers, motorsports groups, and consumers worldwide.***


***i think the HANS is pretty well proven,***

Agreeded as long as the additional support devices are implemented for the HANS use as they are in F1, IRL, NASCAR & other orginizations. The cost for sedans is not just for the HANS, one must add in the $1,000.00 halo seat.

Have you ever read what Joey Hand had to say after the corner workers saved has HANS wearing a$$ at Mid Ohio a year or two ago.

Last edited by David Dewhurst; 11-26-08 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 11-26-08, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Speed Raycer View Post
$700 SFI device, + $800 winged seat + $100 Right side net = $1600 out of your pocket.
Don't want to get into a deep discussion, I've got pizza to go eat, but I have a Hans device and a winged seat. I am not writing a letter. Let's go all in on this and figure out a way to let ISSAC in. Last time I bought a set of tires it was almost a grand.

Happy turkey day guys
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Old 11-28-08, 07:27 PM
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Paul, no deep discussion required. Within my letter to the BoD & CRB, I pointed out the conflicts of interest that exist within the SCCA (legal Counsel/Risk Manager/recomends insurance company) & the SFI. Below is part of my letter to the SCCA.


I strongly believe the present rule for head & neck restraints is adequate. Please do not make the head and neck restraint mandatory. If you feel obligated to make something mandatory with respect to the head and neck restraint please provide a waiver as part of the driver’s license process which the driver will sign off on when he/she applies for a license. Have a separate sign off line that the head and neck restraint information has been read, understood and agreed with.

Following are the test specification results of the head and neck restraints which I reviewed before procuring a free standing Isaac head and neck restraint which requires zero peripheral support devices to provide the maximum protection to me the driver.
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Old 11-28-08, 09:41 PM
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The thinking behind the right side net (NOT a window net) is to help restrain the head in a side or angled impact. The HANS can and has come out from under the belts in such a crash. Even if you've got a seat with helmet restraints on the side, if your head moves forward in front of them in an angled impact, the net helps guide your head back where it should be, rather than hitting your head against the front of the restraint.
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Old 11-29-08, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by David Dewhurst View Post

I strongly believe the present rule for head & neck restraints is adequate. Please do not make the head and neck restraint mandatory. If you feel obligated to make something mandatory with respect to the head and neck restraint please provide a waiver as part of the driver’s license process which the driver will sign off on when he/she applies for a license. Have a separate sign off line that the head and neck restraint information has been read, understood and agreed with.

Following are the test specification results of the head and neck restraints which I reviewed before procuring a free standing Isaac head and neck restraint which requires zero peripheral support devices to provide the maximum protection to me the driver.
The waiver is a good way to handle it. If SCCA is one of the last groups to adopt these rules we could have a problem. I think we need the spouse or next of kin sign the waiver as well.
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Old 11-29-08, 10:43 AM
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***I think we need the spouse or next of kin sign the waiver as well.***

That's the kind of $hit a lawyer would write.
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Old 11-29-08, 03:25 PM
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i cant believe scca hasnt adopted the head and neck restraint rules!!! apparently those who are arguing against this rule have never seen an accident in person where it has saved a life. thats all i needed to see for myself to personally go get mine VOLUNTARILY BEFORE the rules came into affect in nasa. btw i dont care what restraint you use but it is my belief that some kind of restraint shoud be required.....

just my .02

Last edited by rob81gsl; 11-29-08 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 12-10-08, 04:53 AM
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didn't the window net rule used to be known as the fireball roberts rule
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Old 12-22-09, 11:41 PM
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In case you didn't feel it when it happened, we all just got F'd. The CRB asked, we told them and the BOD said F them we're doing what we want.

Write the BOD and let them know or save up for 2012, especially us guys with an Isaac.
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Old 12-23-09, 02:03 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcT-2yx0CCc

I was at this race and Kubica's only injury was a sprained ankle. I'd say the HANS works alright.
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Old 12-23-09, 12:22 PM
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Not doubt the HANS works, and people should use some kind of restraint. The issue is the way the new rule excludes one of the best performing restraints over an SFI technicality. The ISAAC blows the HANS away in testing.

So, emergency crews can find the time and the ways to remove a steering wheel, remove a right side net, work around a big halo on the seat(if the driver is serious about his HANS working right) but they can't pull two pins by the drivers ears?

I don't think I've ever seen a wreck where the emergency crews couldn't get to the SHOULDER belts to run their cutter across them.(if they can't pull the pins) If it is possible to have one, I doubt the driver would survive anyway.
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Old 12-23-09, 07:22 PM
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Seems like the DefNder is still an option
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