To all the B**ches that think K20 Hondas are slow:
Hmm....if we're comparing on the global stage, you have to compare the NSX Type R vs. the RX-7 Spirit R Bathurst edition, the best of the best comparison. Both those cars from the factory are quite even, it is a toss up.
A 250 whp 13B NA vs. A 250 whp K20A2 NA would be a good match, above that power level NA, the 13B compromises streetability.
Honda engines make great mileage, except for the F-series engine.....that's on par with the FC's EPA estimate when new. (Or so I heard, 17/25 for the S2K? Not quite sure.) It'll destroy any 13B in terms of cruise mileage. HP/L it depends on how you calculate that figure, which is why I think HP/L is such a useless statistic. It doesn't describe efficiency at all, you have BSFC for that. All it is, is a Honda cheering tool. Now if you were to calculate it in terms of pure displacement, the 13B-MSP from the J-spec RX-7 puts out 250 hp @ 1.3L of displacement....putting that at just shy of 200 HP/L. Calculating by the 2 rotations method, it's slightly under 100 HP/L. My personal method for evaluating displacement would put this at just shy of 66 HP/L, with a note that you'd have to multiply the figure by 1.5 to equate it to a normal 6 cylinder piston engine. What does all this tell us? Absolutely nothing......HP/L is USELESS!!!
How would you define mileage in this comparison? With two 300 whp engines, cruising, closed loop mpg is kinda useless in race terms, I'd be more interested in race, WOT mileage. I've always heard that the rotary engine is very efficient under race conditions, though I don't have any information to back that up.
Multiple GT victories have come from Speedsource's RX-8. Then again, Mazda isn't rich enough like Honda to support the IRL or what not. How are those Realtime Acura's doing? Aren't they powered by the K-series engine? Have they even won a championship yet? (Note: RX-8's were removed from Speed GT and replaced with Mazda6's......methinks people were getting tired of the 13B winning too much)
There's no real point to compare racing history, other than to establish that it exists. Honda has it's F1 team, which is doing super shitty this year, their private funded B-team has scored more points than the factory team! Mazda isn't really doing much on the global scale, though their latest endeavor with a prototype LM car, saw them replace the rotary engine with an MZR engine due to time difficulties. Rumor has it, that they are going back to the drawing board for next season so they can run and dominate again with the rotary engine.
Cruising mileage: K-series
Tq: K-series
RPM: 13B
Tq curve: 13B (This one is subjective, I prefer the TQ curve of the 13B, doesn't have as sharp of a dropoff after power peak.)
Race mileage: ???
Weight: All aluminum 13B (You did say any 13B NA.....mine has a lot of work on it!) vs. I have no idea what the K20A2 is made of: methinks the rotary engine is much lighter
Answer: It depends what you like.....I prefer my torqueless wonder that doesn't die off after I pass the power peak....makes it easy to pass those K20A2 powered Hondas as I'm diving into a corner.....=P
A 250 whp 13B NA vs. A 250 whp K20A2 NA would be a good match, above that power level NA, the 13B compromises streetability.
Honda engines make great mileage, except for the F-series engine.....that's on par with the FC's EPA estimate when new. (Or so I heard, 17/25 for the S2K? Not quite sure.) It'll destroy any 13B in terms of cruise mileage. HP/L it depends on how you calculate that figure, which is why I think HP/L is such a useless statistic. It doesn't describe efficiency at all, you have BSFC for that. All it is, is a Honda cheering tool. Now if you were to calculate it in terms of pure displacement, the 13B-MSP from the J-spec RX-7 puts out 250 hp @ 1.3L of displacement....putting that at just shy of 200 HP/L. Calculating by the 2 rotations method, it's slightly under 100 HP/L. My personal method for evaluating displacement would put this at just shy of 66 HP/L, with a note that you'd have to multiply the figure by 1.5 to equate it to a normal 6 cylinder piston engine. What does all this tell us? Absolutely nothing......HP/L is USELESS!!!
How would you define mileage in this comparison? With two 300 whp engines, cruising, closed loop mpg is kinda useless in race terms, I'd be more interested in race, WOT mileage. I've always heard that the rotary engine is very efficient under race conditions, though I don't have any information to back that up.
Multiple GT victories have come from Speedsource's RX-8. Then again, Mazda isn't rich enough like Honda to support the IRL or what not. How are those Realtime Acura's doing? Aren't they powered by the K-series engine? Have they even won a championship yet? (Note: RX-8's were removed from Speed GT and replaced with Mazda6's......methinks people were getting tired of the 13B winning too much)
There's no real point to compare racing history, other than to establish that it exists. Honda has it's F1 team, which is doing super shitty this year, their private funded B-team has scored more points than the factory team! Mazda isn't really doing much on the global scale, though their latest endeavor with a prototype LM car, saw them replace the rotary engine with an MZR engine due to time difficulties. Rumor has it, that they are going back to the drawing board for next season so they can run and dominate again with the rotary engine.
Cruising mileage: K-series
Tq: K-series
RPM: 13B
Tq curve: 13B (This one is subjective, I prefer the TQ curve of the 13B, doesn't have as sharp of a dropoff after power peak.)
Race mileage: ???
Weight: All aluminum 13B (You did say any 13B NA.....mine has a lot of work on it!) vs. I have no idea what the K20A2 is made of: methinks the rotary engine is much lighter
Answer: It depends what you like.....I prefer my torqueless wonder that doesn't die off after I pass the power peak....makes it easy to pass those K20A2 powered Hondas as I'm diving into a corner.....=P
Last edited by Roen; Sep 24, 2007 at 10:48 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I dont know how you can LOL when basically you explained everything i have said, but you included your own words.
I forgot what this thread was about as it was many months ago and im not reading this whole thread again but all im saying is that honda has its history in being VERY reliable, fuel efficient, having the best in advanced technology, all while being very affordable. Its racing history is no stranger too. If you dont know much about honda racing history, please look it up before you hit the reply button.
Yes mazda has its history too with the rotary, but when was the latest "big bang"? I know what you're going to say, 24 hour of lemans right? Yes i know, thats everyone's favorite comeback line when their in defense. But i hate to break the bad news, that was almost 2 decades ago and also that engine has never, nor will it ever be in a production car.
Honda, IIRC, still leads the pack in most HP per liter. I dont even want to compare the NSX and the FD because the NSX is in a class higher. I would say the S2K and the FD is a good match. And even then, the S2K 250HP on a n/a engine. While the FD makes its 255 using twin turbo. Now if you were to bring up the rx8 into this discussion, it doesnt hold water as it was tested as being underpowered time and time again before it was debuted. From 250, to like 238? I wont doubt it makes less than that stock.
There is nothing out now mazda has hopes for. Nothing out now mazda can use to say, "hey i got this, im still in the game". No nothing.
You're comparing one of the greatest manufacturers against another manufacturer that had a one time greatest? 24 hour of lemans?
lol look at the lineup for the hondas, a 4 door sedan SI making 197HP? **** look at the shitty EP3's, the ones making 160hp. The 04's have the same value as an 04 rx8 with similar milage.
And the rx8 is almost twice the price of that SI when both are brand new lol.
Go figure that one out.
I forgot what this thread was about as it was many months ago and im not reading this whole thread again but all im saying is that honda has its history in being VERY reliable, fuel efficient, having the best in advanced technology, all while being very affordable. Its racing history is no stranger too. If you dont know much about honda racing history, please look it up before you hit the reply button.
Yes mazda has its history too with the rotary, but when was the latest "big bang"? I know what you're going to say, 24 hour of lemans right? Yes i know, thats everyone's favorite comeback line when their in defense. But i hate to break the bad news, that was almost 2 decades ago and also that engine has never, nor will it ever be in a production car.
Honda, IIRC, still leads the pack in most HP per liter. I dont even want to compare the NSX and the FD because the NSX is in a class higher. I would say the S2K and the FD is a good match. And even then, the S2K 250HP on a n/a engine. While the FD makes its 255 using twin turbo. Now if you were to bring up the rx8 into this discussion, it doesnt hold water as it was tested as being underpowered time and time again before it was debuted. From 250, to like 238? I wont doubt it makes less than that stock.
There is nothing out now mazda has hopes for. Nothing out now mazda can use to say, "hey i got this, im still in the game". No nothing.
You're comparing one of the greatest manufacturers against another manufacturer that had a one time greatest? 24 hour of lemans?
lol look at the lineup for the hondas, a 4 door sedan SI making 197HP? **** look at the shitty EP3's, the ones making 160hp. The 04's have the same value as an 04 rx8 with similar milage.
And the rx8 is almost twice the price of that SI when both are brand new lol.
Go figure that one out.
2. any other person would hve said the same thing because they are true facts not because "you" said them..and if u said it maybe half as good as i put it..this thráed wouldve lasted 3 pages max!
3. calm the F#^& down, just because u believe hondas are the best dont mean the world has to. its an open thing. kinda like asking people whether they believe god exists HA!..
TO EVERYBODY READING THIS:
at the end of the day, its not the car, ITS THE DRIVER
but the video here, proves the facts, both cars are stock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Boy0dvKgVzE
Last edited by thatkoltguy; Sep 25, 2007 at 02:03 AM.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Australia
4 color car, thats me.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: Oak Creek, WI
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
done by major automotive magazines. take it with a grain of salt since they probably did them the year they were manufactured. the 80's rx did mid/low 15's. any honda/acura, did 15-17's. reliability stock, honda has it against rotaries. for higher power applications i would believe that a rotary would have it for racing purposes. look at the physics of what a piston engine has to go through vs a rotary. I'm looking at the cars, stock, against each other, with no changes.
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
done by major automotive magazines. take it with a grain of salt since they probably did them the year they were manufactured. the 80's rx did mid/low 15's. any honda/acura, did 15-17's. reliability stock, honda has it against rotaries. for higher power applications i would believe that a rotary would have it for racing purposes. look at the physics of what a piston engine has to go through vs a rotary. I'm looking at the cars, stock, against each other, with no changes.
Last edited by Jzavala; Sep 25, 2007 at 08:49 AM.
Ok then, then we dont need to further this between you and i
So far, i didnt see one person besides yourself say the same thing i said, they were all saying the opposite, thats why i posted alot in this thread and thats why it has this many pages.
Who said i believe hondas are the best? Does a person have to be a fanatic of a particular manufacturer to try to defend it?? Wow, if so this forum and the people here are horrible. I am a CAR enthusiast. I love ALOT of cars. I love honds, mazdas, toyotas, audis etc etc. THats the problem with this forum and maybe thats why we're classified as the people we are today. Because seriously the menatality of most of the people here are out like cloud 9. Its rotary or nothing, rx7 or nothing. I understand we're all fans and thats why we're here but come on, when the truth is the truth, just step back and accept it. (Im not directing towards you but the people here in general).
2. any other person would hve said the same thing because they are true facts not because "you" said them..and if u said it maybe half as good as i put it..this thráed wouldve lasted 3 pages max!
3. calm the F#^& down, just because u believe hondas are the best dont mean the world has to. its an open thing. kinda like asking people whether they believe god exists HA!..
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: suffern, ny
Is that a rsx or is that a k20 motor inside of a hatch?? If thats an rsx i give him credit because the amount of money he mustev put into that thing to get it to keep up with the vette is impressive alone. Especially on a roll on because of the torque of the vette.
I agree with you qwick 7, i am a fan of all cars not just rx7's and ive had the privledge to be around many cars and own several cars as well. If a honda looks good and they got some good power then i don't care that it is just a honda. When i hang out with my mustang buddies they tell me rx7's are ricers and they suck. They don't even care what i have to say about my 7 unless its got an american motor pushing it. Then they'll flame on me for needing an american motor haha. Its a never ending battel
I agree with you qwick 7, i am a fan of all cars not just rx7's and ive had the privledge to be around many cars and own several cars as well. If a honda looks good and they got some good power then i don't care that it is just a honda. When i hang out with my mustang buddies they tell me rx7's are ricers and they suck. They don't even care what i have to say about my 7 unless its got an american motor pushing it. Then they'll flame on me for needing an american motor haha. Its a never ending battel
rx7drifter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 206
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From: mesa az
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