waynespeed

MVAMotorsports (Marcos), as a tuner, what major

advantages did the Microtech unit gave you in regards

to reliability and more power over the Haltech units that

it replaced?

The_HITman

Yogi, I will dignify your question with an answer unlike some other children on here. The difference in injector time resolution means a more likely chance of you getting the mixture you want, every time, with having finer control. The more your injectors flow, the more important it is to have finer resolution. It helps alot to make the system more repeatable and allows smaller corrections to be made without having to make huge leaps. Full throttle, it does not make much difference, but idle quality and drivability is where you find it.

Marcos..... A bit childish don't you think.
I don't race, and I am not particularly interested in drag racing. Perhaps by your methods we should just drop our pants in the school yard and compare... :-)

Why don't we end this thread before we all start saying things we will regret.

Autronic#1

I agree with hitman, it is a problem when one push on the button is too rich, and one push is too lean. Specially with big injectors. And dont start me on the timing wandering around or we will be here all night. Haltech or microtech, take your choice and suffer for the wrong one.

Chris



[QUOTE]Originally posted by The_HITman
[B]Yogi, I will dignify your question with an answer unlike some other children on here. The difference in injector time resolution means a more likely chance of you getting the mixture you want, every time, with having finer control. The more your injectors flow, the more important it is to have finer resolution.

RETed

Somehow, in my experience, it has been just the opposite...

Just when you think you got the tuning down good, you gotta mess with the coolant temp compensation...the battery voltage compensation...intake air temp compensation...cranking ignition...what a headache!



-Ted

fdracer

Uh, Titan runs a motec m48 not a microtech. From what I've seen at the track the Haltech is too sensitive for purely drag applications. It gives up a lot of consistency and can cause breakage in some situations. In America, the Haltech has had many problems with drag. None of the top American import dragsters use Haltech these days. They have been used in the past, but I have personally seen a widespread trend switching away from them. This is a fact borne out of my observations at American drag strips. Do not flame me, I am only reporting what I have seen. However, just because the top drag racers no longer use Haltech does not reflect upon it's viability as an all around ems, all I'm saying is that is becoming clear that it is not the best system for drag, at least in America.

MVAMotorsport

Hi guys, its Anthony Rodrigues,
Yes I am posting from MVA motorsports terminal, because I am here with him completing his latest project. Before any comments are made about the products this thread is concerning, you must all get it right. Before we officially begin to promote Microtech here in the US we are properly training and giving support to our dealers. Please dont listen to me but list the number of top name US racers that are currently switching to our unit. I will not but you will see. Perhaps as always you guys will again know better than the pros but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am not slagging Haltech and have never done so, but I do question why my new found friends approached me at their first chance to change. These unknowledgeable dumbass tuners were only promoted by the company themselves on their own website as being "what is hot", go see. I am obviously with the guys and they have my respect.
Microtech also is releasing a new software version as we listen to threads and opinions like this and improve to accomodate their input. It will not take us an eternity to upgrade, in case any one hasnt realise all good products move with the times. It is the 2000's not the 80's. As to why I have not answered the MT questions on this forum, I have been over here supporting our products.
Regards- Anthony Rodrigues.

The_HITman

Thank you Anthony for a professional attitude and answer. My faith in drag racers is somewhat restored.

This never has been a battle over who is using what, but a battle over true capabilities of each system on a technical level. Microtech have marketted their systems well and they do suit drag racers in that they are simple to use at the track and adjustments are quick, and for those reasons they should succeed. But when we are comparing the bare bones of various systems out their they are lacking at this point in time, and by the time they upgrade there will be others on the market to outdo them.

It is about time someone at Microtech actually supported thier product and helped out the 10 million backyard dealers running around selling them. You have no idea how many MT's I see that are installed by so called "Performance Workshops" that simply leave the basic settings untouched, never check the timing, and send the owner out onto the roads thinking everything is rosey. I hear that Motec is tightening up its dealers, and so to will Haltech in the near future when the new line is released. With any luck things will only get better for all of the end users out there.

As far as I know, Haltech has removed MVA's car from their site or they are in the process of doing so.



Good one RETed ! :-)

tims

All professional racers(people who make their living racing) use equipment based on who is paying. I am not saying this is MVA's case but it is always an option Microtech wants to gain some market share, so they pay some pro racers to use their equipment. I have done the same with our race team. I would not base my decision to buy any product on who is using it at the track. Race teams do things and prepare cars alot differently than do club racers and street drivers. Racing results are great advertising for companies but do not guarantee results for everyone. I still think all these systems will work for most applications and the after purchase support is key. So if Microtech is trying to improve their dealer network, so they are better trained, great. I wish all ECU manufacturers would do the same.

Autronic#1

Not all top level racers use a product cause they were paid to. I install and tune ecu's on ski race boats that are at the top level of the sport both in australia and internationally. I use autronic and my customers have paid for every unit plus installation. When the americans came out here to race the world titles in 1997 every boat bar one had autronic . The pommy boat had autronic , the belgians had autronic. Every super class boat in australia bar two uses autronic, the others use motec. Starting to see a pattern ?. I think that the american drag racers are going to microtech as it is an inexpensive ecu which is relatively simple to tune and gives a very good result in drag racing. The australian rotary scene bears witness to that fact. Microtech to there credit do not promote their product as the "be all and end all". I think that a pattern emerges in any sport as to what gear is used be it drag racing or bmx.

Chris






[QUOTE]Originally posted by tims
[B]All professional racers(people who make their living racing) use equipment based on who is paying. I am not saying this is MVA's case but it is always an option Microtech wants to gain some market share, so they pay some pro racers to use their equipment.

fdracer

Drag racers will use a sponsor's product to a point until they start getting bad results. The fact of the matter is that if you are having problem's with a sponsor's ecu, the easiest thing in the world to do is to switch ecu's and just not tell anybody. I've personally seen drag racers sponsor a certain type of ems while using a completely different one on their car. If you are not at you're 100% best in this sport, you're dead. It's more important to win than to use products you advertise, thus it doesn't matter who is sponsoring you for you're ecu, if you're not performing, you will not get any sponsors in the future. Steph is being sponsored by AEM, go find out what computer he's using. Hint: It's not the AEM

AJC13B

Damn, this thread got close to turning into a **** fight, nice work getting it back guys

Ted - Too true, hence this line:

MVAMotorsport

Hey guys,(Anthony Rodrigues)
The Pro racers that have approached me over here have been looking for an edge and have found one. I hope you can realise that we are not about bashing any other products but are trying to promote and support our own. I hope we can be judged by our own merit and not by others inferiority/superiority.
I think it would be a good thing on these forums if the units are discussed seperately so that we can all learn instead of the arguements that occur based on differing loyalties and not the point at hand.(just a thought).
As I believe it has become universally agreed upon at rx7forum, any ECU can only be as good as the tuner telling it how to dance, that is why I am here and have spent a good part of the last 2 years here in the US and in Puerto Rico. Hopefully we will begin to properly advertise O/S and our dealers and our network will be properly trained and informed.
Regards- Anthony.
P.S. AJC13B, The Pan Ams were awesome, ha, ha,ha!!! Only joking.
Regards-Anthony.

RETed

Hmmm...I guess Ari Yallon and Brent Rau don't count as "top racers"...
Most of the DSM racers go Haltech.&nbsp The majority of rotary FI racers go Haltech (anyone care to argue this on hard numbers?).

One other note on drag racers and EMS units...&nbsp Many of the drag racers don't know how to tune an EMS.&nbsp These drag racers know how to drive, and that's usually the extend of their knowledge and skill.&nbsp These drag racers are depending (at their mercy?) of dedicated EMS tuners who work on their cars - thus, the EMS they are using is due who is available locally.&nbsp There are very few drag team owners/drivers that actually tune their own EMS units...


-Ted

The_HITman

Autronic #1 covers it best....

Monkey see monkey do. It happens in all forms of motorsport. The overall product has little to do with it. If one guy wins with something, everyone has to have the same.

fdracer

glad you brought that up reted. yeah they don't count. when was the last time you saw brent rau at the track. when was the last time you saw ari at the track. hell, ari's so scared right now he didn't even go to houston which is in his own back yard. i will bet you anything that when those two come back better than ever, they will not be using haltech. i'm not one to bash haltech, so i will not be posting peoples failures with the unit. who the **** are you to say drag racers can't tune. and i suppose you can mr. 13 sec. racer. ask marcos if he can tune, he only has a 1800 hp car. oh yeah, btw the only reason ari got to where he is using haltech, is cause he hasn't had any competition until this year, and look what's happened now. why don't you go find out how many motors ari brings to every event. look in his trailer and tell us what you see. why don't go learn a thing or two before you start spewing your fat mouth.

sbaker25

Why the hell does everyone have to take everything so damned personally around here? He did say "most".

Maybe it would have been more polite for him to say that drag racers can't tune because they don't have to. I think it's pretty fair to say that drag racers really don't have to tune over a broad RPM range. I can't see a competitive drag racer worrying about getting the idle map just right. That's not an insult and I don't think Ted phrased it in an insulting way. Most drag racers are also pretty bad at calculating roll centers.

Back on topic... throughout this thread a few people have suggested that the Haltech is inadequate and Brand X is better. Vague references to the number of engines that blow while running Haltech are made. I have not seen a single technical and specific shortcoming listed. This is my second time asking. So, rather than challenge people to races to demonstrate tuning prowess, could the nay sayers please fill in the following blank:

The Haltech E6K is inadequate for <fill in purpose of vehicle here> because <fill in reason here>.

I am not a Haltech groupie. I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in any intelligent discussion, positive or negative.

HWO

having 1800hp doesn't mean someone can tune, just means they get their motors built by someone who knows what they are doing........

Maxthe7man

Hmmm.. well some of the greatest tuners in the world, and the biggest names in motorsports were once drag racers, self made racers, with no crew other than themselves, most of these guys went to becomes the kings of the aftermarket, developing parts that alot of us bolt on and take the origin of for granted.. Dick Landy, Sox and Martin, Tom Hoover, Jungle Jim, Vic Edelbrock, etc etc, saying drag racers can't tune is like saying sprinters can't walk..

I have not seen alot of ems systems, so far my knowledge goes no farther than SDS/wolf/haltech/accell, however in my limited experience, I love the haltech, its not nearly as clumsy as the wolf or the Sds, hand controllers suck, give me a laptop..
I can't really comment on the Microtech, however it seems to be more bottem end oriented than the haltech, in a bunch of mags(Zoom and Fast Fours) sent to me by Tim at RPM, the younger kids with entry level turbo cars seem to be the biggest microtech users, which means it not a bad system, but definetly has a niche market, which is not the same as the haltech market really by the looks of it. As for the price of the Microtech, its great, and I think if Microtech really wanted to get serious, they and their supporters should stop trying to push into the haltech arena, and go for the people that are running piggybacks and electro-patch system, as the microtech is more in the price range of the piggybackers and may appeal to them more, than trying to get haltech lovers to accept the minor shortcomings of the microtech..Put the microtech up against the e-manage or the safc/itc combo..
Sometimes I get the idea that guys are not really defending the product, but are defending not having the money to buy the better system..Max

RICE RACING

Without taking the risk of offending anyone, here is how I see this never ending debate.

Microtech, is cheap & easy to tune, it takes alot of the real work out of setting up an efi system wich is a benifit for people who do not have the time or the skills to set up other better speced more accurate alternatives.

Microtech are "pushing" to get into other markets overseas, and are aiming through direct sponsorship and good service to get alot of workshops on board to push their product...good marketing ploy. Most of these workshops will love that there is alot less time involved in setting up this unit and will simply change over to it cause of the greater profit margin they can make on tunning this system as compared to the more accuarate but more complex units such as Haltech etc.

Again it is much much harder to make a mistake on a Microtech because of its basic configuration and its tunning architecture, the negatives are that what have been mentioned by other people before.

The reasons put up by numerous people about other brands being unreliable are just plain laughable as they have never provided any real evidence for their claims, alot of them have just retorted with child like comments and provided no real information that logical level mined people can act upon, It just further degrades their own reputation for neutrality and further reinforces that there are other factors that influence their choices to jump on the band wagon of X brand of ECU.

It is a poor marketing tactic by Microtech and its associated dealers to ridicule other very notable brands by saying that people who switch to it are looking for an edge and hence switch to Microtech? As I see it the edges are, basic set up, cheapness, and enough resolution for there main target sector Drag Racing. There maybe are other benits but MVA has not gone into those? and many people are asking him to tell them why they should switch, when they do not have the problems that MVA seem to suffer from. I too am in the same boat, I know a fair bit about Microtech (all models) as do lots of others here in Australia who contribute to this forum and we are ALL open to learing more about the benifits of Microtechs latest models. What seems to consistently come out though is that it cannot match the accuracy or features of many other units made in Australia, Haltech/Autronic/Motec .....It (Microtech) is a hell of alot cheaper and easier to use (espesially for novices and pros alike) but is it technically better ???

I know it is not from my experiences with the units, on paper it cannot be, simply because of its design especially when compared to the three other units I mentioned. At the end of the day some people will only be interested in true technicall knowledge and features while others will only be interested in hype and "hollywood" stlyed claims/marketing.......I think the issue of difficulty in set up and tunning should be a seperate issue as this as I can see it is the ONLY real down fall of top level ECU units as apposed to cheaper DIY units which lets face it the Microtech in all its forms is.

Anything can be made to go fast, and Microtech proves this hands down, good on them for making an easy to use unit that basically takes the power out of the hands of people who do not know what to do with it or do not have the time or ability to use the added power of a top spec EMS unit

This in no way is a flame, it is just the way I see from my experiences...I think they are more neutral than most, hell if I hated Microtech I would not have tuned one yesterday for a customer !

cement

from an Australian point of view i think its great another product developed and produced in Australia is being released into the US market ,this is a great achievement and all responsible should be congratulated
ive read many many posts on this subject and Microtech has been flamed continuously ,i can't recall a thread or post where Microtech has claimed to be the best, so why all these threads and posts are orientated toward it as if they have claimed this ?????
personally i think Microtech is attacked as much as they are by a minority few is because of their success and i think Haltech has found itself in no mans land as far as a market place
Microtech have developed an ECU that has found its own niche in the market place here in Australia and it did'nt happen by luck , Anthony has continually produced the results at the track by using and developing the ECU further ,you can flame the product as much as you want but the results are down in history for all to see and what is this ingredient that sells a product ? its called success and in this case at the track ,i have no doubt a similar pattern will emerge in the US with MVA switching to Microtech and having Anthony in their corner

RICE RACING

No body hates Microtech period, what many people dislike is the attitude exibited by "some" (this is not directed to anybody on the forum, but what I experience here in Australia) proponents of this product who think they are the ones who know everything and because of what they have done we should listen to them, to the extent of listening to "hollywood" style claims that Microtech is the best rotary EMS in the world. With TOTAL disregard to basic facts and real specifications

This is clearly a falicy as the world does not rotate around the world of drag racing (compared to other forms of motorsport). The only difference with drag racing is that some of the attitudes seem to be bigger. It is common place when involving emotions of people with respect to where they loyalties are.

Using the example of how popular Microtech are in Australia is like using the example of how popular mild steel MIG welded turbo exhaust manifolds are !

Compared to a stainless steel TIG welded manifold they are crap ! It is a similar thing. One is real common, available and cheap and in general does the job, and for a majority of people who do not want any better they are fine, hence they become popular. And when everyone (Rotary users in Australia) uses one to have someone else in the country tell you the virtues of an alternative is looked upon with jealousy and confusion. And some go out of their way to dismiss you because you are not a sheep and simply follow everyone else.

The general mentality is, "Mate Pac use it Maztech use it, all rotaries in Australia use it it must be the best" This is a reflection on the kind of people who are in that "market" a majority have not much of an idea, cruel but true. Alot of shops who use this product get together to bash other systems for whatever reasons as I mentioned in my last post. And when you start to see this tactic developing overseas you begin to realize that there is a bit of bullshit going on, and that there realy is no problem with other EMS units, more so there are other issues that drive people to ridicule other units that are have a proven record, across numerous forms of motorsport, not just drag racing. Especially when the person making the claim does not respond to peoples questions asking for specifics. I am sure that if the problems are "real" that people will switch EMS systems without any need to resort to making statements that cannot be backed up. because a system is complex due to its higher accuracy and extra functions, does not mean "it has issues"

Hence you get the reaction from experienced people such as Hitman, Autronic#1, RETed, and others.

So as was mentioned a few posts back to MVA, get specific with your problems with Haltech so we can all benifit from your experience, casue as it stands there are MANY MANY more people who run rotaries with this choice of EMS who do not have problems.

cement

Rice in regared to the niche they have carved in Australia i don't think the mentality of the customer is they think its the best i think they look at the results on the board with what these workshops have done running these systems ,if they were running Haltech as an ECU then the scene would be different ,Chris summed it up perfectly in an earlier post even though he is a skizzle *** lol
what you alluded to is a large majority of the customers are young guys and they want something affordable that produces the result i.e. running the engine ,they arent interested in anything else
Microtech offers them an easy step into the world of EFI compared too say an Autronic, Motec in price ,installation and when it comes to tuning most competent tuners know exactly from experience how to get quick results without endless hours on the dyno
we all have opinions as to what ECU is best and all have choices as too what ECU we use ,what i don't like is people flaming products or people in an open forum like this when (a) they havent done anything to attract this attention and (b) when their livelyhoods can be affected as a result just because a few people that are pro active in promoting products they recommend and sell themselves decide to do so

relvinnian

Well said RICE.

MVAMotorsport

No ones, builts or tune my motors. Everything has been done in house for 15 years. And yes most of you are right, in drag racing we dont care about idle. But i guarantee you, if you program is not 110% perfect you will breack your engine on the burnout. try running down the track at boost level over 30PSI with a bad program. the smallest thing would breack your engine in half.

Greg

Ted, I hear that Ari recently purchased a Microtech computer

Funny, I recently ran into ari at the maple grove race where titan was there and he had only good things to say about their team. Now, he could have said things about titan motorsport they the rest of us say to each other under our breath but he didnt. I personally dont think that Ari is scared of anything, he seemed confident when I spoke with him. Innovators and leaders are never scared