Project OldTree: The 12 Days of Rotormas
07-10-11, 09:51 PM
#126
In the search for the ultimate solution to keeping a 20B nice and chilly, the quest has been fraught with roadblock after roadblock, setback after setback, especially with the issue of a fan.
So this morning I googled about the Taurus fan and it led me to the Volvo 940's fan controller here: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/ford-taurus-2-speed-fan-wiring-827375/
Since I've never seen a 940 in the junkyard, I copied the schematic (thanks Clokker) and beefed it up in the way Mazda would have done, and added a couple of my own touches to perfect it
The biggest bitch of all was squeezing it into the VW relay panel, the reason being is that the coils' pins are tied together in pairs inside the panel. #1 and #2 have pin 85 together, #2 and #3 have pin 86 and #3 and #4 have pin 85's together. Instead of cracking the panel open, trying to cut/rewire it internally and risk ruining it, what I did was get creative. Pretty sure I've outdone myself with this...
4 relays control the fan, one for Low speed, the other 3 being Hi-speed changeover (at a preset temperature like stock), A/C changeover (switches to hi-speed, the way Mazda would have done it). Both Low and High Speed have manual override switches, as do the turbos for Non-Sequential operation, with each switch being a normal SPST on the ground side of their individual circuits.
Because of VW tying the coil pins together, Relay Socket #2 isn't used for the fans, and ends up being a key-activated relay for any purpose. Mine's gonna use it as the positive jumpstart point since it has 3/8" power pins and can easily handle 70 amps going through it.
As for #3, it is only active when the Hi-Speed fan setting is on, and could easily be retrofitted with a third thermoswitch (12v+ this time) for a third stage of cooling such as a radiator water sprayer. And I still got the Cold Start Assist bottle too
The only thing I'm not 100% happy with on this is that it requires using S5 style thermoswitches that complete the circuit at their prescribed temperatures. S4 ones break circuits at 195 (automatic) & 207 (Turbo II)
In retrospect, a $13 relay panel, $20 E-fan, $3 worth of SPST switches and a piece of steel to make a switch panel. Toss in a Be Cool Dual Pass Radiator next weekend, some flat and angle iron and you've got the simplest, cheapest, cleanest, most efficient cooling system possible for under $300. Cheaper than a Koyo
So this morning I googled about the Taurus fan and it led me to the Volvo 940's fan controller here: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/ford-taurus-2-speed-fan-wiring-827375/
Since I've never seen a 940 in the junkyard, I copied the schematic (thanks Clokker) and beefed it up in the way Mazda would have done, and added a couple of my own touches to perfect it
The biggest bitch of all was squeezing it into the VW relay panel, the reason being is that the coils' pins are tied together in pairs inside the panel. #1 and #2 have pin 85 together, #2 and #3 have pin 86 and #3 and #4 have pin 85's together. Instead of cracking the panel open, trying to cut/rewire it internally and risk ruining it, what I did was get creative. Pretty sure I've outdone myself with this...
4 relays control the fan, one for Low speed, the other 3 being Hi-speed changeover (at a preset temperature like stock), A/C changeover (switches to hi-speed, the way Mazda would have done it). Both Low and High Speed have manual override switches, as do the turbos for Non-Sequential operation, with each switch being a normal SPST on the ground side of their individual circuits.
Because of VW tying the coil pins together, Relay Socket #2 isn't used for the fans, and ends up being a key-activated relay for any purpose. Mine's gonna use it as the positive jumpstart point since it has 3/8" power pins and can easily handle 70 amps going through it.
As for #3, it is only active when the Hi-Speed fan setting is on, and could easily be retrofitted with a third thermoswitch (12v+ this time) for a third stage of cooling such as a radiator water sprayer. And I still got the Cold Start Assist bottle too
The only thing I'm not 100% happy with on this is that it requires using S5 style thermoswitches that complete the circuit at their prescribed temperatures. S4 ones break circuits at 195 (automatic) & 207 (Turbo II)
In retrospect, a $13 relay panel, $20 E-fan, $3 worth of SPST switches and a piece of steel to make a switch panel. Toss in a Be Cool Dual Pass Radiator next weekend, some flat and angle iron and you've got the simplest, cheapest, cleanest, most efficient cooling system possible for under $300. Cheaper than a Koyo
All Hail MoldyPoo for inspiring Travis with this great idea. He got the inspiration from my MK4 Jetta lol.....VW = Virtually Worthless... Most of the time
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:19 PM. Reason: pic moved to 20B Album
07-11-11, 12:09 PM
#127
Questing for the perfect thermoswitch...
THERMOSWITCHES ARE A ******* NIGHTMARE....It's 2011 and car manufacturers STILL don't know the thread pitches of their own goddamn sensors. This is the kid of **** that turns the serious enthusiasts dangerously violent. I was hunting for information on Mitsubishi 3000GT fan thermoswitches for an hour before I found that they're too damn big (M16x1.5), but have nice activation temperatures (MB660663 is 185*F, MB660664 is the 203*F). They're two contact too, perfect for the intended application. Before all of this, I was hunting through GM parts and no one seems to comprehend what "what is the switch's thread pitch?" means.
But alas, I have the solution now...
http://www.standardbrand.com/Online%...g/Content.aspx
Thankfully, this site lets you weed through all the bullshit by part type (Sensor-Coolant temperature) and THREAD PITCH!!! And as an added touch of awesomeness, number of contacts too.
Then plug the number in here to find what car it goes to: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php
And if the perfect switch is a GM part after all, you'll be able to find the proper connector at www.pcsconnector.com because the people running the site have thoughtfully included GM and ACDelco part numbers (which you find through Rock Auto) for each one, and break down each pigtail by their individual parts (housings, pins, seals, guides, etc).
Admins, we need a sticky here!
But alas, I have the solution now...
http://www.standardbrand.com/Online%...g/Content.aspx
Thankfully, this site lets you weed through all the bullshit by part type (Sensor-Coolant temperature) and THREAD PITCH!!! And as an added touch of awesomeness, number of contacts too.
Then plug the number in here to find what car it goes to: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php
And if the perfect switch is a GM part after all, you'll be able to find the proper connector at www.pcsconnector.com because the people running the site have thoughtfully included GM and ACDelco part numbers (which you find through Rock Auto) for each one, and break down each pigtail by their individual parts (housings, pins, seals, guides, etc).
Admins, we need a sticky here!
07-12-11, 04:10 PM
#130
Thermoswitches: The Sequal
Since I'm waiting on payday to arrive, thought I'd do some more cooling homework. Turns out I've found the PERFECT thermoswitches for this project, from our fellow twin turbo enthusiasts in the Mitsubishi pond. All are 2-pin ones, so they can be wired for power or ground, M16x1.5 thread for use in an unmodified water pump housing. All are mounted in the bottom of the vehicle's radiator and are PNC Code 10322.
MB660663 (Standard Motor TS-297, 91-95 3000GT/Stealth, 93-95 Mirage/Colt/Summit, 92-95 Expo) On@ 185*F
MB660664 (Standard Motor TS-294, 1992 3000GT/Stealth) On@ 203*F
MB890504 (Standard Motor TS-417, 1992 Diamante) On@ 212*F
Others can be substituted, but may use a different thread pitch. One such example is:
MB356704 (1g DSM & 91-92 Galants) On@ 185*F (Thread pitch not currently known)
Anyway, the plan is to work the fans just like the 3000GT does, low comes on at 185*F, high takes over at 203*F. The 212*F switch is going to be for an emergency radiator water sprayer, in the unthinkable case the almighty Taurus fan can't cool the 20B down enough
MB660663 (Standard Motor TS-297, 91-95 3000GT/Stealth, 93-95 Mirage/Colt/Summit, 92-95 Expo) On@ 185*F
MB660664 (Standard Motor TS-294, 1992 3000GT/Stealth) On@ 203*F
MB890504 (Standard Motor TS-417, 1992 Diamante) On@ 212*F
Others can be substituted, but may use a different thread pitch. One such example is:
MB356704 (1g DSM & 91-92 Galants) On@ 185*F (Thread pitch not currently known)
Anyway, the plan is to work the fans just like the 3000GT does, low comes on at 185*F, high takes over at 203*F. The 212*F switch is going to be for an emergency radiator water sprayer, in the unthinkable case the almighty Taurus fan can't cool the 20B down enough
07-14-11, 09:39 PM
#131
Spy Shots...SHHHH!!!
From the Super Secret Rotary Laboratory, I sneaked these pictures out...
26x19x3 Double Pass Radiator
Old and New
The ladies are right, SIZE DOES MATTER!
"Jedi Master" Lynn Hanover
26x19x3 Double Pass Radiator
Old and New
The ladies are right, SIZE DOES MATTER!
"Jedi Master" Lynn Hanover
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Pics moved to 20B Album
07-21-11, 04:47 PM
#133
HELP: A/C Hose and Hardline Fittings
Progress has been a bit slow due to the weather. 95-100 degree temperatures combined with heat indices of 110+ have stalled motivation to pick up the arc welder for more than an hour or so. Here's what has happened so far
Radiator Cradle:
In the meantime, I've been doing LOTS of homework on A/C fittings and getting absolutely nowhere. There are lots of different fittings, fitting descriptors, hose sizes, but nothing I've seen is actually relevant to the car. The Denso-equipped cars apparently use regular AN hoses, but there's simply no concrete information available about thread/hose sizes for the Sanden equipped cars, which are the most common of the bunch. So far, I've seen that every person has a different story about the Sanden cars' fittings, ranging from metric O-ring, SAE thread O-ring, AN8 & 10, to even NPT
So with all this fresh in mind, a call to Mazda was in order, aiming to find what dealer my car was originally sold at, with the goal of finding out if there was a complete "Kit" that came with everything, or if it was all pieced together from different sources then. But alas, that was not to be since they don't have records going back that far.
After getting nowhere with searching here, RCC, nopistons and googling till my eyes bled, I'm saying uncle and have asked for assistance from Banzai Racing and Mazdatrix. Should hear back soon and in the process, hopefully end up with a solution for mangled, corroded or otherwise unusable hardlines and hoses.
Radiator Cradle:
In the meantime, I've been doing LOTS of homework on A/C fittings and getting absolutely nowhere. There are lots of different fittings, fitting descriptors, hose sizes, but nothing I've seen is actually relevant to the car. The Denso-equipped cars apparently use regular AN hoses, but there's simply no concrete information available about thread/hose sizes for the Sanden equipped cars, which are the most common of the bunch. So far, I've seen that every person has a different story about the Sanden cars' fittings, ranging from metric O-ring, SAE thread O-ring, AN8 & 10, to even NPT
So with all this fresh in mind, a call to Mazda was in order, aiming to find what dealer my car was originally sold at, with the goal of finding out if there was a complete "Kit" that came with everything, or if it was all pieced together from different sources then. But alas, that was not to be since they don't have records going back that far.
After getting nowhere with searching here, RCC, nopistons and googling till my eyes bled, I'm saying uncle and have asked for assistance from Banzai Racing and Mazdatrix. Should hear back soon and in the process, hopefully end up with a solution for mangled, corroded or otherwise unusable hardlines and hoses.
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:23 PM. Reason: moved pic
07-28-11, 09:34 PM
#134
Since Mazdatrix doesn't touch anything to do with A/C anymore, due to California's perpetual state of psychosis, we've taken a break from the cooling frame to finish up the mounts once and for all. Before now, the front runner on the UIM would hit the skin of the hood. Because I'm picky, I've pulled each engine mount bracket and SLOWLY slotted the holes at first with a carbide bit in the drill press. That was till I got too ambitious/impatient and the drill press took the bracket right out of my hands, spun it around and whacked the corner right into the back of my hand. Nothing too serious (I was lucky!), but I got a couple nice long and fortunately shallow cuts as a reminder to slow down. What's REALLY weird is that they're at roughly a 40 degree angle, the EXACT SAME angle as the engine mounts where they meet the crossmember
A paper towel and some painters tape later and I was back to work and broke out the dremel along with a fresh set of diamond bits. To quote Aaron Cake "It's a lot harder to really screw things up with the dremel." Another day with the dremel and the engine should be in its final location. And after that comes the FUN stuff. First up will be the modifying the water pump housing, Intake Elbow and Turbos' Y-pipe (if needed). Nothing too crazy, just cut and re-weld using the monster welder Lynn has. Yup, I'm gonna learn to weld on a 220v monster weighing in at 1400lbs and was made over 50 years ago. It does MIG, DC arc, AC arc, DC inverted polarity arc, TIG and is so ridiculously powerful that one could simply ignore duty cycles for nearly any project outside of building aircraft frames
Once my metalstitching is up to par, we're gonna be fixing his minivan that was rear-ended by a 4100lb Isuzu Trooper. Backstory on it is that he was in front of Lowes, the driver of the Isuzu was texting, plowed into the minivan at 45mph with so much force that it BROKE the seat backs off of the front seats.
Gotta replace the WHOLE rear clip, so lots of welding time
A paper towel and some painters tape later and I was back to work and broke out the dremel along with a fresh set of diamond bits. To quote Aaron Cake "It's a lot harder to really screw things up with the dremel." Another day with the dremel and the engine should be in its final location. And after that comes the FUN stuff. First up will be the modifying the water pump housing, Intake Elbow and Turbos' Y-pipe (if needed). Nothing too crazy, just cut and re-weld using the monster welder Lynn has. Yup, I'm gonna learn to weld on a 220v monster weighing in at 1400lbs and was made over 50 years ago. It does MIG, DC arc, AC arc, DC inverted polarity arc, TIG and is so ridiculously powerful that one could simply ignore duty cycles for nearly any project outside of building aircraft frames
Once my metalstitching is up to par, we're gonna be fixing his minivan that was rear-ended by a 4100lb Isuzu Trooper. Backstory on it is that he was in front of Lowes, the driver of the Isuzu was texting, plowed into the minivan at 45mph with so much force that it BROKE the seat backs off of the front seats.
Gotta replace the WHOLE rear clip, so lots of welding time
07-29-11, 04:50 PM
#135
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this is great stuff, man. it looks like you're pretty close ... i can't wait.
08-05-11, 11:05 PM
#138
After another grinding session on the engine mounts, leaving 1/16" of steel between the block studs and the first welds, the hood now clears the UIM by a hair. Lynn said that there's plenty of clearance under the oil pan to bring it down even lower, so the brackets may see some more welding and grinding time later on, but for now they're just peachy
Something I'd like to point out is that with any 20B conversion, the smart way to approach the engine mounts is to do them one side at a time. Leaving one in but loose makes it a million times easier to get everything located.
Now that the biggest, most annoying issue is out of the way, the fun shall begin. First is to finish up all of the cooling systems' mounting brackets. Then comes water pump housing mods, exhaust, plumbing everything together and firing it up!!!
Something I'd like to point out is that with any 20B conversion, the smart way to approach the engine mounts is to do them one side at a time. Leaving one in but loose makes it a million times easier to get everything located.
Now that the biggest, most annoying issue is out of the way, the fun shall begin. First is to finish up all of the cooling systems' mounting brackets. Then comes water pump housing mods, exhaust, plumbing everything together and firing it up!!!
08-07-11, 03:31 AM
#139
Coming along great. I need to come to Ohio and watch you crank it up. I wish someone would trade me an FC for my Jetta. I miss my GTU, Would have been orgasmic to do the swap in that thing. GOD I MISS IT.
08-07-11, 05:59 PM
#140
Gauge-y, Gauge-y, where are you???
Not much progress today as Lynn's TIG flow meter had vanished. In proper rotorhead fashion, we discovered this AFTER prepping the water pump housing for welding. Actually, it was REALLY easy to do. Cut the bottom neck off straight with a sawzall, turn it 90* so the bend faces upward, pie cut about 1/4" off of the top of the tube (originally the FRONT) where they now meet, then clean and weld.
Even without the flow meter, a jerry-rigged argon setup made from a NPT fitting threaded into bare AN10 hose, and using aircraft aluminum rods that melted hotter than the housing, Lynn really shows how skilled he is by making two CLEAN tacks to hold it in place.
Yes, I was wearing proper welding goggles when taking this picture. It's the first lesson I learned about welding.
After welding. He says they're ugly welds but I've seen worse on NEW cars lol
Clears the OMP perfectly
Once it's finished up, the only thing you'll see is your reflection
Even without the flow meter, a jerry-rigged argon setup made from a NPT fitting threaded into bare AN10 hose, and using aircraft aluminum rods that melted hotter than the housing, Lynn really shows how skilled he is by making two CLEAN tacks to hold it in place.
Yes, I was wearing proper welding goggles when taking this picture. It's the first lesson I learned about welding.
After welding. He says they're ugly welds but I've seen worse on NEW cars lol
Clears the OMP perfectly
Once it's finished up, the only thing you'll see is your reflection
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Moved pics to 20B Album
08-08-11, 07:53 PM
#142
Master Hanover has welded the water pump the rest of the way today. Comparing the most recent pics to the early ones before it was modified (Page 2 of the thread), it should come close to the front intake but just barely clear. As always, the proof shall be in the pudding tomorrow once the turbos are re-mounted
With that tackled and the radiator mount just needing a little weld attention to be done, I'm turning my attention to all of the hoses necessary to pull this off.
First up are the radiator hoses. Top hose is gonna be a Gates 1.5" flexible one. Bottom one will have to be one of their Vulco Flex II hoses with 1.75" and 1.5" ends. Now you're probably thinking "What about the heater and turbos?" Since it's a S4NA water pump housing, there's no return for the turbos. Normally, this would present a fabrication opportunity/necessity, but I've found a downright dumb/simple and CHEAP solution.
My radiator was meant for use with a cap, so it has an overflow tube on it. Because the S4's water pump also has a cap & overflow tube, the overflow tube on the radiator will be the turbos' coolant return. To plumb in the heater return, a cheap hose barb adapter will be put in the thermoswitch bung at the bottom. To mimic the stock S4's system, I'll get a flat GM radiator cap, weld a nut on the BOTTOM of it and that's where the Low Coolant Sensor will reside. All 3 ports are constantly in contact with the coolant.
The big advantage to this over the stock TII system is that post-turbo and post-heater coolant gets to take advantage of half of the radiator's cooling capacity, which will also help equalize the radiator outlet's coolant temperature (no last-second tee-in's from the turbos & heater means no pre-heating the coolant going back into the engine). Plus, you don't have to mess with trying to adapt the 1.75" radiator outlet down to 1.5", then tee it off for the heater return. Fewer connections means less chances for leaks.
Because I'm using a S4 Water Pump housing, the hose barb on the back of the housing (used for throttle body coolant supply) can be reworked for something a bit more fun and useful. Might make a good spot for the first thermoswitch for the Three-Stage Cooling System I cooked up earlier for the car.
With that tackled and the radiator mount just needing a little weld attention to be done, I'm turning my attention to all of the hoses necessary to pull this off.
First up are the radiator hoses. Top hose is gonna be a Gates 1.5" flexible one. Bottom one will have to be one of their Vulco Flex II hoses with 1.75" and 1.5" ends. Now you're probably thinking "What about the heater and turbos?" Since it's a S4NA water pump housing, there's no return for the turbos. Normally, this would present a fabrication opportunity/necessity, but I've found a downright dumb/simple and CHEAP solution.
My radiator was meant for use with a cap, so it has an overflow tube on it. Because the S4's water pump also has a cap & overflow tube, the overflow tube on the radiator will be the turbos' coolant return. To plumb in the heater return, a cheap hose barb adapter will be put in the thermoswitch bung at the bottom. To mimic the stock S4's system, I'll get a flat GM radiator cap, weld a nut on the BOTTOM of it and that's where the Low Coolant Sensor will reside. All 3 ports are constantly in contact with the coolant.
The big advantage to this over the stock TII system is that post-turbo and post-heater coolant gets to take advantage of half of the radiator's cooling capacity, which will also help equalize the radiator outlet's coolant temperature (no last-second tee-in's from the turbos & heater means no pre-heating the coolant going back into the engine). Plus, you don't have to mess with trying to adapt the 1.75" radiator outlet down to 1.5", then tee it off for the heater return. Fewer connections means less chances for leaks.
Because I'm using a S4 Water Pump housing, the hose barb on the back of the housing (used for throttle body coolant supply) can be reworked for something a bit more fun and useful. Might make a good spot for the first thermoswitch for the Three-Stage Cooling System I cooked up earlier for the car.
08-09-11, 05:26 PM
#143
Got a late start today thanks to a killer ebay find: Union Carbide R6007 TIG flowmeter for $4 plus shipping ($12). A new non-**** flowmeter starts around $100, so it was WELL worth getting only 3hrs of sleep. As an added bonus, Lynn found the control pedal too so we'll be back to TIGing next week
Got the minivan's rear clip cut up over the past few days and ready for fitting. Took a break from that to test fitted everything again, and the pictures speak a thousand words each. Also threw around the idea of converting the turbo oil drains and OMP lines to AN, more on that later tho.
Front overall, with UNMODIFIED 20B Cosmo Y-pipe & CRV, CCV & BOV
Bottom neck from the front
Bottom neck from the side
Top neck close-up
Planning to cut a ~1" section out of the Y-pipe just under the BOV's flange, turn it about 45 degrees to the left (toward passenger side) and have a nice, gradual bend to meet the V-mounted intercooler. Had it been a front-mount like I originally wanted to do, it could just be lowered and then go straight down
Got the minivan's rear clip cut up over the past few days and ready for fitting. Took a break from that to test fitted everything again, and the pictures speak a thousand words each. Also threw around the idea of converting the turbo oil drains and OMP lines to AN, more on that later tho.
Front overall, with UNMODIFIED 20B Cosmo Y-pipe & CRV, CCV & BOV
Bottom neck from the front
Bottom neck from the side
Top neck close-up
Planning to cut a ~1" section out of the Y-pipe just under the BOV's flange, turn it about 45 degrees to the left (toward passenger side) and have a nice, gradual bend to meet the V-mounted intercooler. Had it been a front-mount like I originally wanted to do, it could just be lowered and then go straight down
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Pics moved to 20B Album
08-12-11, 04:15 PM
#144
So I'm taking a break from the radiator and other big stuff for a week to get all the turbo, heater and other miscellaneous plumbing sorted out and solved. So here's all of the fluid connections on the 20B twins:
Oil Supply Y-pipe: M14x1.5 MALE THREAD
Coolant Supply Y-pipe: Hose Barb (appears to be 3/8" hose)
FRONT TURBO:
Coolant Inlet: M16x1.5 [21mm wrench]
Coolant Outlet: M16x1.5
Oil Inlet: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet Midway Flange: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet Block Flange: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
REAR TURBO:
Coolant Inlet: M14x1.5 [19mm wrench]
Coolant Outlet (WITHOUT OE ADAPTER): M14x1.5
Coolant Outlet OE ADAPTER: M14x1.5 MALE THREAD on turbo side and M16x1.5 or M18x1.5 MALE THREAD opposite*
Oil Inlet (WITH OE ADAPTER): M12x1.5 MALE THREAD [14mm wrench]
(WITHOUT OE ADAPTER): Could not remove currently [14mm wrench]
Oil Outlet: Flange w/2 M6x1.0 bolts
Oil Outlet Block Side: Flange w/2 M6x1.0 bolts
*I'm not exactly sure what the thread pitch is for this, so my current recommendation is to remove the OE Adapter, get a M14x1.5 to AN adapter and have the hose point straight up so it doesn't contact the Cosmo downpipe. If need be, use a swivel adapter as a spacer.
To use AN6 hose, here are part numbers for adapters and current prices at Jegs
M14x1.5 to AN6 Adapter: Russel 799-670520, $5 at Jegs
M14x1.5 FEMALE to AN6 Adapter: Earl's 361-9894DBH, $12 at Jegs
M16x1.5 FEMALE to AN6 Adapter: Earl's 361-9894DBJ, $12 at Jegs
M16x1.5 to AN6 Adapter: Russel 799-670510, $5 at Jegs
1/4" NPT to AN6 Adapter: Aeroquip 023-FCM2004, $6 at Jegs
3/8" Hose Barb to AN6 Adapter: JEGS 555-100845, $7 at Jegs
As for the oil drains and later the front turbo oil inlet, those will be custom made flange to AN6 adapters
Now, for the heater return hose, what I had in mind was to also have it run into the bottom of the radiator via the 1/4" NPT fitting. As it appears to be a 3/4" ID hose, reducing it down to 1/4" NPT or AN6 would cause a flow restriction, but would work until I could figure out a better solution. Any suggestions, I'm all ears...
Oil Supply Y-pipe: M14x1.5 MALE THREAD
Coolant Supply Y-pipe: Hose Barb (appears to be 3/8" hose)
FRONT TURBO:
Coolant Inlet: M16x1.5 [21mm wrench]
Coolant Outlet: M16x1.5
Oil Inlet: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet Midway Flange: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
Oil Outlet Block Flange: Flange w/2 M8x1.25 bolts
REAR TURBO:
Coolant Inlet: M14x1.5 [19mm wrench]
Coolant Outlet (WITHOUT OE ADAPTER): M14x1.5
Coolant Outlet OE ADAPTER: M14x1.5 MALE THREAD on turbo side and M16x1.5 or M18x1.5 MALE THREAD opposite*
Oil Inlet (WITH OE ADAPTER): M12x1.5 MALE THREAD [14mm wrench]
(WITHOUT OE ADAPTER): Could not remove currently [14mm wrench]
Oil Outlet: Flange w/2 M6x1.0 bolts
Oil Outlet Block Side: Flange w/2 M6x1.0 bolts
*I'm not exactly sure what the thread pitch is for this, so my current recommendation is to remove the OE Adapter, get a M14x1.5 to AN adapter and have the hose point straight up so it doesn't contact the Cosmo downpipe. If need be, use a swivel adapter as a spacer.
To use AN6 hose, here are part numbers for adapters and current prices at Jegs
M14x1.5 to AN6 Adapter: Russel 799-670520, $5 at Jegs
M14x1.5 FEMALE to AN6 Adapter: Earl's 361-9894DBH, $12 at Jegs
M16x1.5 FEMALE to AN6 Adapter: Earl's 361-9894DBJ, $12 at Jegs
M16x1.5 to AN6 Adapter: Russel 799-670510, $5 at Jegs
1/4" NPT to AN6 Adapter: Aeroquip 023-FCM2004, $6 at Jegs
3/8" Hose Barb to AN6 Adapter: JEGS 555-100845, $7 at Jegs
As for the oil drains and later the front turbo oil inlet, those will be custom made flange to AN6 adapters
Now, for the heater return hose, what I had in mind was to also have it run into the bottom of the radiator via the 1/4" NPT fitting. As it appears to be a 3/4" ID hose, reducing it down to 1/4" NPT or AN6 would cause a flow restriction, but would work until I could figure out a better solution. Any suggestions, I'm all ears...
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-12-11 at 04:43 PM. Reason: corrected rear turbo coolant outlet information
08-17-11, 11:03 PM
#145
Well I've been lazy on the fabrication front and decided to keep the stock Cosmo turbo oil drains original. Felt time was better spent sorting out all of the plumbing than reinventing the wheel on a working stock piece.
Now, for the top of the radiator, I did some digging and found that the overflow hose is usually 3/8" for GM vehicles. That means I can just use some AN6 hose ran straight from the turbos' hardline. Later on, I can just convert it all to AN6
As for the bottom of the radiator, it's slightly more complicated. I'm planning on putting the heater return hose there. Because the aim for the car is ease of servicing, the radiator, block and oil pan are all getting drain valves instead of plugs. Getting covered in coolant in a blizzard in the dark once was enough for me.
Since the heater hose needs to be plumbed in somewhere, I've been mulling over the options and settled on putting it in stock location. $15 for a 1.75 to 1.5" hose adapter plus $4 for a suitable tee fitting will do the trick. Sure, it could be done using the 1/4" NPT bung on the radiator but it means more hose, fittings and adding a check valve so it doesn't flow backwards. Keeping it stock-ish makes it so all the fittings can be found at Menards on the cheap. Another benefit to this stock-ish system is not needing a weird 1.75 to 1.5" hose for the bottom of the radiator. Any Gates 1.5" flexible hose will do the trick.
On a more productive note, the car is now set up to use braided stainless steel AN lines for the OMP. It's not the Rotorsports ones, but my own design which costs a LOT less and is as reliable if not more reliable. Not to disparage Rotorsports, as I'm sure their product works very well, but $50 per line is a bit ridiculous and only offering them for the FC for in-house projects just alienates the largest customer base among rotorheads. If anyone would like these for ANY rotary car, please PM me and I'll hook you up.
Now, for the top of the radiator, I did some digging and found that the overflow hose is usually 3/8" for GM vehicles. That means I can just use some AN6 hose ran straight from the turbos' hardline. Later on, I can just convert it all to AN6
As for the bottom of the radiator, it's slightly more complicated. I'm planning on putting the heater return hose there. Because the aim for the car is ease of servicing, the radiator, block and oil pan are all getting drain valves instead of plugs. Getting covered in coolant in a blizzard in the dark once was enough for me.
Since the heater hose needs to be plumbed in somewhere, I've been mulling over the options and settled on putting it in stock location. $15 for a 1.75 to 1.5" hose adapter plus $4 for a suitable tee fitting will do the trick. Sure, it could be done using the 1/4" NPT bung on the radiator but it means more hose, fittings and adding a check valve so it doesn't flow backwards. Keeping it stock-ish makes it so all the fittings can be found at Menards on the cheap. Another benefit to this stock-ish system is not needing a weird 1.75 to 1.5" hose for the bottom of the radiator. Any Gates 1.5" flexible hose will do the trick.
On a more productive note, the car is now set up to use braided stainless steel AN lines for the OMP. It's not the Rotorsports ones, but my own design which costs a LOT less and is as reliable if not more reliable. Not to disparage Rotorsports, as I'm sure their product works very well, but $50 per line is a bit ridiculous and only offering them for the FC for in-house projects just alienates the largest customer base among rotorheads. If anyone would like these for ANY rotary car, please PM me and I'll hook you up.
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-17-11 at 11:27 PM. Reason: add in OMP info
08-20-11, 06:51 PM
#146
3 steps back
I'm pissed...
: wallbash:
The water pump housing just won't weld, even with ER4340 filler rod. The pump housing melts before the rod does. Master Hanover said the housing was melting at around 900*F while the rod is rated at about 1000*F. On the plus side, part of the equation could be too much argon blowing through and drawing in oxygen from the air.
Also, to the person whom posted elsewhere that the OMP line banjo bolts are M6x1.0, where exactly did you pull that info from? THEY ARE M8x1.25 on the OMP end and M10x1.25 on the Injector end. Since I didn't double-check it on the car, I have to accept blame for that.
The broken Oil Pressure Sender has to be removed because it'll spew about 1qt an hour. So the engine has to be pulled out, stripped down to the shortblock and the rear iron removed in order to hopefully extract the remnant with an easy out. I'm praying that the threads stay intact.
Okay, now that I've cooled off, one can move forward with solutions.
The OMP can be done several ways:
M8x1.25 to AN3 Adapters are $7 each from the same source as the 6mm ones or get 8mm to AN3 Banjo adapters for $13 each from Jegs
If I wanted to just upgrade everything to AN4, here's what could be done:
Exchange the injector end banjos for AN4 versions at Jegs for free.
Then either get some M8x1.25 to AN4 adapters from the same source as the 6mm ones for $7 each or find somewhere that offers 8mm to AN4 banjo adapters and eat the cost of the 6mm adapters. Just emailed the adapter source about an exchange, hopefully they'll help me out.
As for the water pump, I'm majorly stumped on this one. If you have welding experience on aluminum, PLEASE CHIME IN and tell me what to do.
In regard to the broken sender, as much as it pisses me off to have to undo everything, there's just no way around it.
: wallbash:The water pump housing just won't weld, even with ER4340 filler rod. The pump housing melts before the rod does. Master Hanover said the housing was melting at around 900*F while the rod is rated at about 1000*F. On the plus side, part of the equation could be too much argon blowing through and drawing in oxygen from the air.
Also, to the person whom posted elsewhere that the OMP line banjo bolts are M6x1.0, where exactly did you pull that info from? THEY ARE M8x1.25 on the OMP end and M10x1.25 on the Injector end. Since I didn't double-check it on the car, I have to accept blame for that.
The broken Oil Pressure Sender has to be removed because it'll spew about 1qt an hour. So the engine has to be pulled out, stripped down to the shortblock and the rear iron removed in order to hopefully extract the remnant with an easy out. I'm praying that the threads stay intact.
Okay, now that I've cooled off, one can move forward with solutions.
The OMP can be done several ways:
M8x1.25 to AN3 Adapters are $7 each from the same source as the 6mm ones or get 8mm to AN3 Banjo adapters for $13 each from Jegs
If I wanted to just upgrade everything to AN4, here's what could be done:
Exchange the injector end banjos for AN4 versions at Jegs for free.
Then either get some M8x1.25 to AN4 adapters from the same source as the 6mm ones for $7 each or find somewhere that offers 8mm to AN4 banjo adapters and eat the cost of the 6mm adapters. Just emailed the adapter source about an exchange, hopefully they'll help me out.
As for the water pump, I'm majorly stumped on this one. If you have welding experience on aluminum, PLEASE CHIME IN and tell me what to do.
In regard to the broken sender, as much as it pisses me off to have to undo everything, there's just no way around it.
09-01-11, 04:14 AM
#149
Since progress has stalled on the car temporarily because the pump housing was previously not cooperating, I just finished designing the first rounds of upgrades.
As anyone with a Haltech knows,the Flying Lead Harness they include is a universal part, universally wrong for all applications. Got to looking at the leftover VW relay panel and it hit me like a ton of bricks. And here's what happened after a couple days:
Combined the ECU and Injector power are now on a single relay with 3/8" power pins, then used the on-board ATC fuse slots to mimic the stock setup, but in a smaller, tighter and MUCH cleaner package
All of the useless and redundant wires in the harness shall be no more. By running a single 5v wire from the ECU to a bus bar, one wire from the ECU/Injector relay to a second bus bar for 12v and adding a ground bus bar, the whole harness makes much more sense. Wouldn't suprize me if I eliminated 100ft of excess wire.
Now that the harness has been redesigned to make sense, I took a second look at the main relay panel/power distribution point and found a critical flaw in the execution. The way I had it set up, there was redundant wiring going to the Fan's Hi-Speed line. Also, my idea for a Three-Stage cooling system wouldn't work since the third stage (using the Diamante thermoswitch) wouldn't behave properly with a flasher since socket #2 and #3 have coil pins tied together. A few hours later and TAAAAA-DAAAA
The radiator sprayer goes through Relay Socket #2 (3000GT switch on Ground, Diamante switch on 12v+), outputs to Socket #3 through an adapter (so it uses unused pins) to a Turn Signal Flasher and outputs that to a windshield washer pump. And because the flasher comes after the relay, adding temperature-based water/meth injection is so easy a caveman could do it...
As anyone with a Haltech knows,the Flying Lead Harness they include is a universal part, universally wrong for all applications. Got to looking at the leftover VW relay panel and it hit me like a ton of bricks. And here's what happened after a couple days:
Combined the ECU and Injector power are now on a single relay with 3/8" power pins, then used the on-board ATC fuse slots to mimic the stock setup, but in a smaller, tighter and MUCH cleaner package
All of the useless and redundant wires in the harness shall be no more. By running a single 5v wire from the ECU to a bus bar, one wire from the ECU/Injector relay to a second bus bar for 12v and adding a ground bus bar, the whole harness makes much more sense. Wouldn't suprize me if I eliminated 100ft of excess wire.
Now that the harness has been redesigned to make sense, I took a second look at the main relay panel/power distribution point and found a critical flaw in the execution. The way I had it set up, there was redundant wiring going to the Fan's Hi-Speed line. Also, my idea for a Three-Stage cooling system wouldn't work since the third stage (using the Diamante thermoswitch) wouldn't behave properly with a flasher since socket #2 and #3 have coil pins tied together. A few hours later and TAAAAA-DAAAA
The radiator sprayer goes through Relay Socket #2 (3000GT switch on Ground, Diamante switch on 12v+), outputs to Socket #3 through an adapter (so it uses unused pins) to a Turn Signal Flasher and outputs that to a windshield washer pump. And because the flasher comes after the relay, adding temperature-based water/meth injection is so easy a caveman could do it...
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 08-20-12 at 06:32 PM. Reason: pic moved
09-05-11, 01:23 AM
#150
Welcome to Oil Pressure, empty your wallet now...
Once again, GoogleMan has saved the day!! Credit goes to HAILERS and YearsOfDecay for this solution to all of our oil pressure quandaries, found in this thread: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...l+pressure+tap
Pegasus Auto Racing sells a pair of adapters to convert 1/8"-28 BPST to 1/8" NPT and back together for $30 (#1073)
Or you can get them individually from McMaster-Carr for ~$5 each:
4860K141 is 1/8"-28 BPST Male to 1/8" NPT Female. Price: $4.62
4860K151 is 1/8"-28 BPST Female to 1/8" NPT Male. Price: $5.29
Put a regular plumbing nipple and tee between the adapters and you're done.
Been doing some homework on the oil pressure dilemma and found that using an easy out should work just fine to pull the sender stub. With some luck, the threads won't be affected either. And if the off-chance the rear iron's threads aren't salvageable, it could be carefully re-tapped for M12x1.5 and adapted back to NPT.
So this weekend, engine is getting pulled for sender attention, final water pump detail, and possibly the mount brackets modified for the last time to drop the engine down another 1/4".
Pegasus Auto Racing sells a pair of adapters to convert 1/8"-28 BPST to 1/8" NPT and back together for $30 (#1073)
Or you can get them individually from McMaster-Carr for ~$5 each:
4860K141 is 1/8"-28 BPST Male to 1/8" NPT Female. Price: $4.62
4860K151 is 1/8"-28 BPST Female to 1/8" NPT Male. Price: $5.29
Put a regular plumbing nipple and tee between the adapters and you're done.
Been doing some homework on the oil pressure dilemma and found that using an easy out should work just fine to pull the sender stub. With some luck, the threads won't be affected either. And if the off-chance the rear iron's threads aren't salvageable, it could be carefully re-tapped for M12x1.5 and adapted back to NPT.
So this weekend, engine is getting pulled for sender attention, final water pump detail, and possibly the mount brackets modified for the last time to drop the engine down another 1/4".