Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
Thanks Simon, Kilo would do you proud and that D series he has available now would be perfect. I look forward to getting this done (again) and to enjoying the car.
Hey Vince. Nice meeting you too. Regarding the tank, I would use that for the front washer if I could find one. I like the idea of using it for the meth injection system except it would be located too far from the pump as per the AEM best practices. This is why I am using the stock location front windshield wiper tank for the meth system now. If i use the rear tank for the windshield wiper I wouldn't care if it takes long for the pump to "prime" but that wouldn't work for the meth system.
Thanks for your opinion Phil. I do disagree with most you say though. First, show me where I called anyone a "doubter". What I said is if you thought the RA seals would eat the housings (and I did) then you'd be wrong. The pics are definitive proof of this and I base this on Kilo's observations and conclusions. There is no gouging or scratching on the housings and they are in good shape. We are going to resurface them as I asked for that but regardless, Kilo indicates the housings in my application (3 rotor street car with occasional track use), even without the resurfacing, will be good for 5-7 years of use. I'll take his expertise on this as he has well over 30 years of experience and many hundreds if not thousands of engine builds. Me? Zero.
Regarding the chatter marks, that is abnormal chatter for 10K. But note the chatter is only on one housing, the center housing, or the one that had the corner seal failure. Kilo states the chatter marks have nothing to do with the seals (again, the front and rear housings show no chatter), but are from a lean condition on the center or incorrect timing. If the RA seals were at fault, then you'd see chatter marks on all housings, right? This is exactly the same as when I used the NRS ceramic seals, with the center failing and with chatter marks showing from the failure. It wasn't reasonable to conclude the NRS seals caused chatter marks just because one housing had an issue, so it's not reasonable IMO to blame the problem on RA.
Concerning ALS, those were the first seals I considered but they don't make a 3mm version so I then went to Goopy (which BTW, allrotor93 (John) is a distributor for both). I know ALS is all the rage right now, but what data do we have outside of second hand reports? None that I know of so who knows, maybe a few years from now, we will all be saying to get rid of these as well. Not saying this is right or they aren't any good, we just don't have any data on these either.
Goopy seals have bene around for quite some time now and have some big name engine builders and tuners using them, but again, the data is inconclusive too. You've got your guys that like a particular brand and I have now talked to enough respected engine builders that use Goopy and are very pleased that I am going to use them in my build. No sponsorship here, just advice from guys that have been around the longest in the rotary community so it works for me. No test dummy intentions here but I'd suggest the ALS and Goopy seals have been around the same time, so maybe we are all testing after all.
Take care.
Hey Vince. Nice meeting you too. Regarding the tank, I would use that for the front washer if I could find one. I like the idea of using it for the meth injection system except it would be located too far from the pump as per the AEM best practices. This is why I am using the stock location front windshield wiper tank for the meth system now. If i use the rear tank for the windshield wiper I wouldn't care if it takes long for the pump to "prime" but that wouldn't work for the meth system.
Thanks for your opinion Phil. I do disagree with most you say though. First, show me where I called anyone a "doubter". What I said is if you thought the RA seals would eat the housings (and I did) then you'd be wrong. The pics are definitive proof of this and I base this on Kilo's observations and conclusions. There is no gouging or scratching on the housings and they are in good shape. We are going to resurface them as I asked for that but regardless, Kilo indicates the housings in my application (3 rotor street car with occasional track use), even without the resurfacing, will be good for 5-7 years of use. I'll take his expertise on this as he has well over 30 years of experience and many hundreds if not thousands of engine builds. Me? Zero.
Regarding the chatter marks, that is abnormal chatter for 10K. But note the chatter is only on one housing, the center housing, or the one that had the corner seal failure. Kilo states the chatter marks have nothing to do with the seals (again, the front and rear housings show no chatter), but are from a lean condition on the center or incorrect timing. If the RA seals were at fault, then you'd see chatter marks on all housings, right? This is exactly the same as when I used the NRS ceramic seals, with the center failing and with chatter marks showing from the failure. It wasn't reasonable to conclude the NRS seals caused chatter marks just because one housing had an issue, so it's not reasonable IMO to blame the problem on RA.
Concerning ALS, those were the first seals I considered but they don't make a 3mm version so I then went to Goopy (which BTW, allrotor93 (John) is a distributor for both). I know ALS is all the rage right now, but what data do we have outside of second hand reports? None that I know of so who knows, maybe a few years from now, we will all be saying to get rid of these as well. Not saying this is right or they aren't any good, we just don't have any data on these either.
Goopy seals have bene around for quite some time now and have some big name engine builders and tuners using them, but again, the data is inconclusive too. You've got your guys that like a particular brand and I have now talked to enough respected engine builders that use Goopy and are very pleased that I am going to use them in my build. No sponsorship here, just advice from guys that have been around the longest in the rotary community so it works for me. No test dummy intentions here but I'd suggest the ALS and Goopy seals have been around the same time, so maybe we are all testing after all.
Take care.
^ Zero knowledge. I think Enzo uses them but that is all I know.
This thread has turned into the great seal debate. Like to suggest we open up another thread in the 3rd gen section to cover this as I'd like to focus on the build. Moving forward with Goopy seals and comfortable with the decision.
Thanks.
This thread has turned into the great seal debate. Like to suggest we open up another thread in the 3rd gen section to cover this as I'd like to focus on the build. Moving forward with Goopy seals and comfortable with the decision.
Thanks.
David, So let me get this straight, so you are saying RA seals are good, no issues at all but now you are switching to Goopy? why not just replace the corner seals on one rotor and be done with it than? Either case, good luck.
I don't think this thread turned into the great seal debate.. I just don't understand why Goopy is chosen for a car that's street and occasional track when OEM 3mm or if RA seals are good why not just replace whats broken and move on.
I do know people with the rxparts seals. They are happy making 700rwhp on e85 with 2 rotors. Thats why I asked. In fact I have purchased a set and will be using them in my motor build.
Also I find it funny that you cite Davids wishes and then disregard them asking me about the seals.
In the end if David is happy with kilo's and his decision regarding what seals to run in his motor that is all that matters. Phil is bringing up some good questions IMO and David should have no problem answering them if he is sure with his decision. Why switch seals if you believe the ones you had were not causing problems? Especially if he is paying for the new Goopy ones. Something does not seem to add up.
Also I find it funny that you cite Davids wishes and then disregard them asking me about the seals.
In the end if David is happy with kilo's and his decision regarding what seals to run in his motor that is all that matters. Phil is bringing up some good questions IMO and David should have no problem answering them if he is sure with his decision. Why switch seals if you believe the ones you had were not causing problems? Especially if he is paying for the new Goopy ones. Something does not seem to add up.
Last edited by RENESISFD; Jun 7, 2013 at 10:53 PM.
Herblenny... Where are you coming from here, Phil? Do you think his choice of seals will cause a motor failure? I think he's pretty clear about what he's doing and why. You really need him to repeat himself? I think this is all kind of funny. You guys talking about David's housings having chatter marks from RA's from looking at the cell phone pictures, when David and Kilo say there's no chattering. They broke the motor down and felt the metal surfaces. Can you really "feel" the pixels? 
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G, Sometime I can really "feel" the pixels.. I guess you might be clear about what he's doing, but to me, if RA seals are good, corners are bad, not wanting to switch from 3 to 2mm because of the cost being an issue, why not just stick to RA and just replace the broken corner and get the engine reassembled. Especially if Jesus is stating it will last another 5-6 years? Simple solution to a street car that was running ok when it was first built by Kilo.
I brought up the rxparts seals so that this guy can look at all his options before making a decision. I know big racers who have switched from Goopy seals to rxparts seals and will not go back. I'm sure there are people who have good results with Goopy as well. But at least know all your options before making a decision
. I also find it very odd that you are saying the RA seals are ok but still are switching to another seal.
. I also find it very odd that you are saying the RA seals are ok but still are switching to another seal.
I believe David already said that he had already purchased the Goopy Seals well before the tear down. The hearsay reputation for Goopy has been better than the RA seals so why not switch while he can? Makes since to me.
Now about those rxparts seals. Telling us that big racers are switching still isn't giving us the info we need. WHY are they switching? What's wrong with the Goopy's vs the rxparts for that specific application? The BIG racers live there lives a 1/4 at a time so what good is that for us street people? Now you don't have to answer all those questions as I'm just bringing up a point. All these new seals are application specific so we need to start narrowing down what's best for what. This forum is way to full of vague comments on why somethings are better than others. I'm currently impressed with the pics of his housings of the "so called" housing eating RA seals. So unless someone comes up with some hard core evidence as to why David is making a mistake by not considering other options, we need to leave the seals talk alone until PROVEN otherwise.
Sorry David!
Now about those rxparts seals. Telling us that big racers are switching still isn't giving us the info we need. WHY are they switching? What's wrong with the Goopy's vs the rxparts for that specific application? The BIG racers live there lives a 1/4 at a time so what good is that for us street people? Now you don't have to answer all those questions as I'm just bringing up a point. All these new seals are application specific so we need to start narrowing down what's best for what. This forum is way to full of vague comments on why somethings are better than others. I'm currently impressed with the pics of his housings of the "so called" housing eating RA seals. So unless someone comes up with some hard core evidence as to why David is making a mistake by not considering other options, we need to leave the seals talk alone until PROVEN otherwise.
Sorry David!
I believe David already said that he had already purchased the Goopy Seals well before the tear down. The hearsay reputation for Goopy has been better than the RA seals so why not switch while he can? Makes since to me.
Now about those rxparts seals. Telling us that big racers are switching still isn't giving us the info we need. WHY are they switching? What's wrong with the Goopy's vs the rxparts for that specific application? The BIG racers live there lives a 1/4 at a time so what good is that for us street people? Now you don't have to answer all those questions as I'm just bringing up a point. All these new seals are application specific so we need to start narrowing down what's best for what. This forum is way to full of vague comments on why somethings are better than others. I'm currently impressed with the pics of his housings of the "so called" housing eating RA seals. So unless someone comes up with some hard core evidence as to why David is making a mistake by not considering other options, we need to leave the seals talk alone until PROVEN otherwise.
Sorry David!
Now about those rxparts seals. Telling us that big racers are switching still isn't giving us the info we need. WHY are they switching? What's wrong with the Goopy's vs the rxparts for that specific application? The BIG racers live there lives a 1/4 at a time so what good is that for us street people? Now you don't have to answer all those questions as I'm just bringing up a point. All these new seals are application specific so we need to start narrowing down what's best for what. This forum is way to full of vague comments on why somethings are better than others. I'm currently impressed with the pics of his housings of the "so called" housing eating RA seals. So unless someone comes up with some hard core evidence as to why David is making a mistake by not considering other options, we need to leave the seals talk alone until PROVEN otherwise.
Sorry David!
First off, all these " un breakable seals " ALS, Goopy, rxparts, etc are soft seals that are going to wear much faster than OEM and Ceramic seals. So to say your putting them in a street car to get. 200k miles is a joke. People use these seals so when the **** hits the fan the seal warps instead of breaking and damaging engine parts.
If you want apex seals that will last forever buy ceramic seals and a professional tuner and fail safe ECU that will protect your engine in case of a fuel pump failure, etc.
If you want apex seals that will last forever buy ceramic seals and a professional tuner and fail safe ECU that will protect your engine in case of a fuel pump failure, etc.
Phil, I also said there were chatter marks on the center housing that had the problem, and posted up pics of everything like I said I would. We spent a good amount of time inspecting all the parts, especially the housings, and as I am no expert, have relied on Kilo to determine the state of the housings. I think his 30 years and thousands of engine builds with probably the most 3 rotor builds serve as pretty good advice. He states we could just clean the housings and be good to go but has no issues with resurfacing them per my request.
You are also very correct I could just replace the two corner seals and reuse the RA seals (with the exception of the one that is slightly damaged from the corner seals). However, since I already have the Goopy seals and the engine is apart, I am going to replace the RAs with the Goopy seals. Why? Probably the most because of the opinions on this forum versus actual evidence. Even though I didn't have an issue it's still in the back of my mind there could be future problems. Not logical given my results but it is what it is.
As for Goopy versus ALS versus brand X, I've made up my mind and am going with the Goopy. For every guy that has switched from Goopy to something else, I can give you one that has now used Goopy. And the same applies for ALS, RA, and others. I know zero about the RXparts.com seals so those were not even a consideration. Sorry but to state guys are making big power on them with E85 means nothing to me as 1) I am not running E85 (can't find it where I live) and 2) the are a number of cars that run E85 and make good power and they all use different brands of seals, from RA to ALS to ceramics. It's the E85 and its cooling power that is the difference not the seals. And from what I have seen, it's usually the tuning or some other mechanical failure that causes a rebuild, not the particular type of seal.
The bottom line is go with what makes you comfortable and that is what I have done. I'll respect your decision so please respect mine. You may choose to disagree but let's end this great seal debate in this thread - please.
David, I'm fully aware that you are not the expert and kilo is. Maybe I'm reading some things wrong here but it is your car and what I am reading about your build sometimes confuses me. Mainly you wanting street car but building an engine like a drag car. To me and I think others on here have stated, oe seals have been proven for street application and what really suits you. Also the part I'm doubtful is kilo understanding your goal and suggesting doing all the seal swap and such for your set up or is this you going against his suggestion? Ultimately sure it is your car and you should build as what you seem fit. But don't think me, non expert or others stating something different is to harm you but trying to understand your goal and hopes of helping you. Either case good luck with your build and no more talks of the seals from me.
^ That's a little harsh Gordon. That comment is also a slap to the face of Jesus and all his years of experience. The mechanical community here isn't building his car Jesus is. Also David hasn't asked anyone here what their opinion of what seals to use. Suggestions are being given without his consent. If Jesus felt it was best to have the oem seals, I'm sure that's what David would be putting in. The oems are proven but I feel and "David & Jesus " may agree with me is that even a perfect build and tune can't prevent other catastofic failures. You loose a fuel pump or injector during a hard run, what kind of protection are you gonna get with the oem seals? Absolutely none! If that happened all's the community here is gonna do say is "ooops my bad" leaving Jesus doing warrenty repairs. When you build engines for a living, you do what best for your customer. That in itself is an insurance policy!
David... You just don't seem to understand what you are doing or why. Several people on here have told you that OEM seals should be fine for your car and are confused why you don't do what they suggest. You should spend your time focusing on what wheels look good. Leave the mechanical decisions to the community and stop confusing people, okay?
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It's hard to see the sarcasim when you don't include the visual things like 
or which weren't present in that very direct post. If I'm wrong then I hope Gordon accepts my appologies.
or which weren't present in that very direct post. If I'm wrong then I hope Gordon accepts my appologies.
^ That's a little harsh Gordon. That comment is also a slap to the face of Jesus and all his years of experience. The mechanical community here isn't building his car Jesus is. Also David hasn't asked anyone here what their opinion of what seals to use. Suggestions are being given without his consent. If Jesus felt it was best to have the oem seals, I'm sure that's what David would be putting in. The oems are proven but I feel and "David & Jesus " may agree with me is that even a perfect build and tune can't prevent other catastofic failures. You loose a fuel pump or injector during a hard run, what kind of protection are you gonna get with the oem seals? Absolutely none! If that happened all's the community here is gonna do say is "ooops my bad" leaving Jesus doing warrenty repairs. When you build engines for a living, you do what best for your customer. That in itself is an insurance policy!