David,

You've created a beautiful machine here. I admire your tenacity in seeing this through.


Rob

 

Thanks Rob. I appreciate the compliments.

So, the car is heading to Kilo a week from Monday. I am going to hang out to help/watch with the engine tear down so we can see what is going on. In preparation for this, I placed an order with Goopy Performance for a set of 3mm apex seals and a gasket kit, including o-rings for the Guru stud kit. We are also going to fab up the v-mount setup and while the car is there, I'm having Kilo go over the wiring to inspect and then to do a wire tuck. Should knock out the issues I am having.

More to come soon.

 

V-mount = yummy!

 

^ Yep. Gotta solve the coolant temp issue. I have to think something is wrong with what I've currently got, a pinched coolant line or something else. All the parts are brand new and I am using a Griffin 2 pass radiator. No way temps should have skyrocketed like they did, even with a front mount IC setup. And oil temps always stay low so it has to be something wrong.

We will learn a lot more once then engine is taken apart but a v-mount never hurts. I really like what RCCAZ1 has done with his setup so I am using it as my template/inspiration.

 

Is there a reason you chose 3mm seals over 2mm? The 3mm seals are kind of a thing of the past for street cars unless you are running the Mazda 3mm. Do what you will buy I believe you will be in the same spot again in 8-10k miles. The vmount is a good idea at least. Were you running at the track without an underpanel?

Good luck but I'd research that 3mm seal idea again. Talk to those who do more than drag race or put 1k miles on their car each year.

 

Rotors are clearanced for 3mm so I am stuck with that unless I want to redo and rebalance the rotating assembly. If it is what I think it is (RA 3mm seals eating the housings) then I may rethink the 3mm Goopy seals, but if it is what Kilo believes (I'll leave that for when the engine is opened), then the Goopy seals will be fine.

No undertray at the track but the issue wasn't just on the track, temps started to climb rapidly just during regular driving. I've never had them so high in fact so something is off. And yes, I used to have the Shine undertray on the car and my temps shot up like crazy with it on. We did several tests a few years ago with no undertray followed immediately with the Shine 3 piece under tray and temps were 10 degrees celsius higher. This was both in stop and go traffic and while under operation so we took it off. With the v mount setup, I am going to follow RCCAZ1's design and build an under tray/ram air box for the setup to seal it all up.

FYI, Fritz Flynn doesn't run an under tray either on his track car and has really low temps.

 

FYI, in stock configuration the undertray acts as a guide for the air to get through the radiator. With a VMIC setup the only function of an undertray would be for aerodynamics due to the configuration of the radiator. Your issue is with the FMIC, it is currently blocking all air to the radiator. likely what is going on is you are getting some air reversion from under the car that is making its way to the radiator. While this is working for you, its not ideal. If you are not already considering it I would seriously look into a different intercooler setup if you plan to continue tracking the car.

 

Also, unlike the stock undertray, the shine undertray is strictly an aerodynamic part. It has no provisions to seal to a radiator and frame rails as it comes from shine. It can however be modified to work with some simple sheet metal work and foam. I use one on my own car, but it is completely separate from the dedicated radiator ducting.

 

There is no reason to switch to 2mm if your rotors are already cut for 3mm. You made a good choice going with Goopy Seals, it is what I have in my 20b as well, though 2mm. But I have built a few motors with 3mm with people that actually drive them and no issues. Those RA stupid seals are terrible with housing wear. Your gonna cringe when you open your motor and look at the housings.

Cooling is all about air getting in and out. Design a setup with that in mind and it will work well. A front mount setup will never work properly on track with a 20b, its barely enough cooling on the street as is.

My V-mount works quite well, temps get up to about ~230*F but I'm also running Evan's coolant. I'm satisfied with how its working. I think the higher temps are also due to my buttplug to slow the car down since im creating 30-40 pounds of backpressure before the turbo. I only ever saw 210*F before the buttplug.

thewird

 

I don't think it has anything to do with front mount. There are plenty of guys with front mounts and no cooling issues. You need a properly sized intercooler and (more importantly) radiator with proper ducting to both. Proper ducting illuminates the difference between vmount and front mount.

 

Yes, and every single one of those 20b's that have "no issues" only run on the street and drag strip. Put it on the circuit and their overheating within 5 minutes or less once they are properly being pushed. A front mount could probably be made to work but it would require a lot more engineering then what most people put into it.

thewird

 

Collin, Davids front mount is flush against the front bumper and does not let any fresh air to the radiator. Unlike yours and mine where the FMIC is smaller and set further back allowing a direct passage of air to the radiator.

At the end of the day for any heat exchanger to work effectively there needs to be a pressure differential between the front and rear sides. The greater the pressure differential, the better the cooling. This is usually achieved by directing air to the front of the heat exchanger and completely sealing it so it has no where to go but through it. Remember, working to keep the pressure low at the exit of the heat exchanger is just as important as trying to create a high pressure at the front.

 

Thanks for the comments guys. I appreciate the thoughts.

John, you are correct my intercooler currently is flush with the bumper and it fills the entire 99 spec opening. I also have foam around the outer edges so no air can escape around it. It is pushed as far forward as possible and sealed. So it definitely blocks the air but it's not like no air gets through. Air flows through it to the radiator. We also built a while ago an air scoop below the radiator to direct air into it and sealed around the radiator and that seemed to help.

However, as the temps used to be much lower on the car with the above setup, I am with Collin on this one, the setup should work okay with the current configuration. It sadly does not so I agree something else is up here outside of the less than optimum FMIC setup. It's not like this is just a track issue, it's now all the time. My temps used to be 90 celsius or below during normal driving but now they are around 95 just cruising around. If you let the car sit and idle, then temps are fine with the fans cycling on at 88 and bringing the temps back down to 84. So this tells me it is a flow issue of some kind or a blockage. The radiator is a brand new Griffin unit dual pass unit and all hoses are new so I will rule those out as a problem. Also would rule out the dual Spal fans as they push some good CFMs, somewhere around 3,000 as I recall. Could be a simple as an air bubble in the system as I had just flushed and filled the coolant system a day before going to the event. Tried to cycle the system enough to get the air out but there might still be a good amount in there.

The last track event I did at VIR, the car worked fine in the mornings with the current setup with temps going up to around 102 by the end of a session. In the afternoon though we saw 105. Last week, without even pushing the car at all, I saw 110-113 and immediately shut it down. So something is way off.

In any event, I think while the engine is out I'll swap out to a v mount setup. Will only improve the situation so why not? I like what RCCAZ1 did with his v-mount setup and the way he built a "ram air" under tray for it. Works really well for him in AZ.

With the Shine under tray, we did mod it to seal it up and provide better airflow, but this made hardly any difference at all and overall, the temps remained much higher (around 10 celsius) than without the tray, so we took it off.

So, the current game plan is to pull the engine out and inspect for the seal and housing issue but also for a coolant blockage somewhere. I'd love to find one as this would help to make sense out of what is going on but regardless, we are going to change the cooling setup to a v-mount configuration if we can shoehorn it in. There isn't a lot of room to do this but I think it will work. I want to keep AC and am leaning toward using the condenser as a splitter where it will sit in between the intercooler and the radiator, or in a completely horizontal position. RCCAZ1 set his up with the condenser on top of the radiator but I am going to try to avoid this and not have anything on top of the radiator.

Other than that, not much going on

 

Here ya go:



Not many 20B guys have done it I think because it's pretty difficult, especially if you want to keep AC and PS, like I do.

Jesus and I have already discussed this and he thinks we should do it so if we can fit it in, we will. Looks to me it will be doable, with a bit of moving and juggling some parts around. To keep AC, I will relocate the dryer to inside the bumper like Tim did. Going to have to figure out the turbo pipe routing and filter I think. Could be interesting.

You are right though, the problem is a recent one, or at least is now worse than before.

 

Here's my version of a 20b v-mount...



thewird

 

^ Is that an external water pump?

Here is Herblenny's setup:

 

^ No idea. Taking the car to Kilo next Monday and then we will see. Wouldn't think too long though. Jesus doesn't waste time.

 

Hello David,

I have been reading the threads that you and Gordon have been posting about your cars fighting through car issues ... I am glad to see you guys keep your spirit up and forward!

If your engine is out you might as well as consider the V-mount so you will never worry about it again... Not to mention your engine bay will look really nice!! I just don't know where you will put that condenser... Maybe under the radiator in the v-mount setup with the undercooked on the top??

I was just wondering since you will have it out... Will you also take the opportunity in looking at your transmission? Maybe keep stock but upgrade the internals like what they do at liberty gear or throwing in a t-56 magnum? I'm just asking out of curiosity... I know you take very good care of your car and don't push it unless you feel it's necessary or asked to do it :-)

Anyways I have to make some time and find a way to visit you guys!

 

Hey Andrew! Good to hear from you. I appreciate the comments and the encouragement. It will get done. There are no downsides to the v-mount so we will make it happen, it's just a matter of how to fit it in. Will know more next week on the plan for doing this. And you are right, it will look rally nice as well. No more front plate though I think as there will be no room and it will only block air flow as well.

As for the transmission, that has to wait. I'm going to spend too much money on the v-mount and paint, etc. With labor, the T56 Magnum will cost around $5,000 so that will have to hold off for now. Gives me a chance to see how the Banzai tranny and diff braces will work and feel. I have already replaced the stock diff with the Carbonetic carbon LSD so that is good to go.

Unknown right now Gordon. My alternator is in the stock position so it will be more like the RE red car in the pics. The big question is how much space do we have from the nose back to the alternator and pulley location to make this work? As you know, there is not a lot of space there. Going to measure sometime this week so I can think about how to do this before going to Kilo.

 

Hey David,

Well at least is good news that your Trany held up well so far, I'm sure your nice clutch and LSD from carbonnetics helped a lot. I hope your rebuild goes fast and well!

It would have been nice to see you Gordon and Suki!! I'm going to try to make sometime to come and see you guys!

 

Same here David. That's my main concern with your current engine position. From pics I've seen of your install, it appears there's a good 6 to 8 inches between the back of your UIM and the firewall. Not sure if repositioning the engine back is even on the table, but I feel that you're going to need at least "some" room to make the Vmount fit. Keep us posted on your thoughts as this starts taking shape.

 

I've built more than a few, and tore down more than 20 with 3mm seals. If you want to overlook the lower compression, higher housing wear that's fine. Depending on the manufacturer of the 3mm seal it can be negligible, I don't have experience with theGoopy seāls so I won't knock them. However I do know that the 3mm corner seals(besides Mazda) seem to eat side housings much faster than 2mm and to me its not worth the risk for what David is trying to accomplish. Cheaper to sell his 3mm rotors and purchase 2mm rotors now and rebalace than redo a full pull, rebuild and re-install in another 10k miles. Once again, I don't even see the reason fora 3 rotor for his power levels and don't care either way. But enough is enough, I hate to see a guy throw away money no matter how much he has.

 

I have to agree with DJ.

At IRP we pretty much will not build an engine with 3mm apex seals..... Zero benefit at this stage in the game (ie 2013 vs 1997), with some pretty big ones in the detriment column.

One exception, a certain Greek customer we like to call 'The Master of Disaster.' This guy has 3mm RA seals and a studded block for a 'mere' 500 rwhp build, along with copious amounts of premix. If you saw the way this guy drove you'd understand

Whatever you decide, best of luck Dave

 

No, don't want to now go through swapping out the subframe so the engine position is what it is. I think I will be able to shoe horn in a v-mount but will know more next week when we assess what room we have and options. Still using your design setup as my goal

Go back and reread my previous comment:

"If it is what I think it is (RA 3mm seals eating the housings) then I may rethink the 3mm Goopy seals, but if it is what Kilo believes (I'll leave that for when the engine is opened), then the Goopy seals will be fine."

So, we will know more next week on what the actual problem is. You assume the housings will have lots of wear and I do too, but Kilo believes otherwise. Will know the verdict then and will adjust or move forward with the plan based on the actual problem.

And it's interesting following the debates of 2mm versus 3mm seals over the years on this forum. My take on it is no one has any confirmed data on the subject, just a lot of anecdotal evidence. Goopy feels the extra wear of their 3mm seal will be negligible compared to the 2mm units, but who knows?

Not sure how to take this but my initial reaction is not positive. No one especially me wants to throw away any money and God knows I've done way too much of that on this build. Trying to make the best decision here with the best available information. For every negative 3mm experience there are just as many positive ones (even with the RA Superseals).

Anyway, more to come next week. Should have the engine out and torn down next Tuesday and will post up pics.

 

Whats interesting is that I'm not sure what 'antidotal' means

Looking forward to hearing about what Jesus finds upon teardown.... hoping for the best for ya Dave