^ Good timing as I was just writing this up.

So the winner with predicting the issue is........ nobody! It's the corner seals on the center housing. Two cracked in half, leading to the low compression numbers. Pic of the damage:



As the two cracked seals were on the same side of the rotor, this lead to 2 of the 3 apex seals not sealing properly, hence the problem. The RA seals are fine and not warped, with one taking a bit of damage from the cracked corner seals, but hardly any at all. The center rotor got a small nick from the debris, but again, nothing really and completely reusable. The coolant and oil seals were also perfect with no signs of wear and tear. All in all, probably the simplest of issues and the least amount of problems on any low compression engine I've seen.

For those (and I was one of them) that argued the 3mm RA Super Seals would have eaten/gouged the housings, you'd be wrong, at least on my engine. The engine has around 7,500 miles on it and there is very little wear at all. In fact, the surfaces of all of housings and irons are completely smooth and you can run your finger over them and feel nothing. There was some light wear on the side of the center housing that had the cracked corner seals, but really nothing at all.

Pics:









The housings need to be cleaned so most of what you seen as dark will come off and Kilo os going to perform a "Goopy" resurfacing on them as we might as well while the engine is apart, but Kilo states there really is no need for this. The center housing also had an area of carbon buildup in one of the air passages with this most likely being from the low compression.

So, what caused the cracked OEM corner seals? Kilo states it is from one of two possible scenarios: 1) a lean condition from a faulty primary injector, or 2) tuning and timing. Note the chatter on the center housing. This would say it's a tuning issue but I did have two years ago the primary injector go out on the center housing so it's possible the trouble started then and recently manifested itself. We do know the center had lower compression (in the 90s) a year ago so maybe it took the past year to complete the cracking of the corner seals.

I'd use this damage and results as one data point in the argument of 2mm versus 3mm seals and the myth of RA Super Seals and their wear on housings. My conclusion from the engine teardown is you are safe using the RA seals and a 3mm sizing. This is just one sample and I don't want to jump to a universal conclusion though so take it for what it is worth.

Since I already have the Goopy 3mm seals, we are going to rebuild the engine using them, with OEM corner seals (I believe Kilo uses the old school 12A ones but I might have misunderstood him on this) and OEM coolant and oil seals. So, the rebuild will be fast and furious so to speak.

What will take some time is the rest of the list. While the car is down, we've got a bit of work to do on it:

1) Redo the wiring. Too much suspect wiring throughout the engine bay. It's all coming out and being replaced with better, verified good wiring. It will also be simplified with a number of runs being consolidated and with multiple relays being eliminated. Also attempting to relocate the master fuses and OEM relays out of the engine bay to free up space. Finally, the end result wiring will all be wrapped with the same protective covering TBD. Won't be a complete wire tuck but it will be drastically improved I think.
2) Eliminate the ABS. Time for it to come out and to use the extra space for a custom windshield wiper tank. My current tank is used for the meth injection system as I was originally told back in the day you can use the blue windshield cleaner for meth injection. Found out over time this is a bad idea as the soap in the wiper fluid can and did goop up the filters in the meth lines so I now run a 50/50 water to meth mix, which is not suitable for the wiper system. So I am having a new tank custom made for this purpose and it will be in the ABS location.
3) Install v-mount. Time to solve the coolant temp issues once and for all. We spent some time measuring for a v-mount setup and it is completely doable so we are going for it. We are going to squeeze in as large a radiator as possible on the bottom with two fans to pull air down and then install an intercooler in a flat horizontal position across the top with it sliding into the front bumper. We are going to use an RX8 AC condenser as it has the dryer built into the end tanks, eliminating the space for the current FD dryer and the condenser will be located on top of the radiator,using the airflow of the v-mount setup and the radiator fans to pull cool air through and out of the system. This eliminates the need for the two current AC dedicated fans. Am very psyched to see the result of this and the new lowered temps. Kilo showed me one he just completed on his son's (Kilito) FD and it is killer nice. Looks OEM.
4) Oil Coolers. Going to swap the oil lines to the top of the coolers to eliminate the possibility of the lines getting snagged on something. Noted a slight bend on the right bottom connector most likely from putting the car on a trailer. While we are doing this, the oil lines will be cleaned up to simplify some of the runs.
5) Chase down a few electrical problems. Recent changes on the car have resulted in the AC and blower not working and in the ABS and brake warning lights staying on. The ABS delete will solve that problem (will pull the bulb out on the waring lights) but need to track down and solve the other problems. After seeing the wiring, Kilo thinks he knows why, but we shall see.
6) Brake issue. The brakes are mushy when first pressed and you need to pump them a second time to have a hard pedal. Just replaced the brake fluid with Endless blue dot, so we may have left some air in the system, but I don't think so. Kilo is certain this is a check valve problem so that should be a simple fix.
7) Paint. Time for the 20 year old paint to get a refresh. The prep and paint work is being done by Carlos, across from Kilos'. He does some beautiful work and I am excited to see the results. He's going to use a jet black paint with 3 coats of clear to achieve a deep, wet look. Should be really nice.
8) Rims. Not positive on this but it will probably be time to change to another Forgeline wheel setup. Been working with Forgeline to come up with a wheel solution that will let me run anywhere from a 295 - 335 on the back as I want to do the Modified Mag Tuners Shootout next year and that requires me to run a 295 tire. Also want to go to a wider front tire (will a 275 fit with a rolled lip?) as that will provide better balance for tracking the car so it seems the best option is to sell the current setup and go with something new. Anyone with a wide body interested in the current setup? Let me know as I can sell the rims only (18X9 fronts and 18X12.5 backs) or sell them with the Micheline PS2s. If I swap them out, I am looking at these:

Forgeline: GA3R Forged Aluminum 3-Piece Lightweight Racing Wheel

Would do them in matte black with a gloss black lip and a contrasting color stripe TDB. What do you think? Any other ideas or anyone with photoshop skills?

So, other than that, not much going on. I kid of course but trying to use this as one last opportunity to get everything the way I envision.

 

More pics:

Kilo (Jesus) and his son Kilito (Jesus Jr.) getting ready for surgery on the car. Yes, I did help also:


Car minus front lip from towing on trailer:


Draining the fluids:


Ready to come out:


Hooking up the engine lift:

 

Engine out:


One the move:


Draining fluids:




The engine pull was not too difficult. Took Jesus Jr. and myself about 3 hours of prep time to remove all of the piping, wiring, hoses, etc., or the stuff needed to pull the engine out. I am sure we didn't set any speed records doing this but we got the job done.

Jesus came in for the big stuff and got the engine out in no time, but we did find the Guru stud kit to be quite the bitch as we had to bang out the oversized studs. Completely worth it as the engine isn't going to torque with those babies in. Good experience for me as I've never done this before. Probably won't do it again either but at least I know what goes into a pull and an engine inspection.

 

And a favor: this thread was the victim of a "down rating" campaign several months ago by one of our infamous recently departed (left the forum) members. If you feel so compelled to rate the thread highly and haven't done so, I'd appreciate it.

 

Nice! Carlos is a great painter! He did my sons daily and he'll be doing my RX2. Best part about the paint he uses, Love bugs don't affect it!

 

Glad u found the cause. Can't wait to her back on the road.

Ask Jesus if he will install a NA 3 rotor in my REPU? One of these days I will stick it on a transporter and send it to him.

 

Yes he is. Top notch work from a great guy. I am very happy he;'s going to do it.

Thanks Simon. Glad it's not a big deal and will be happy to have it back together, bigger and better. Funny you mention 3 rotors as Kilo has several laying around his shop as he figures out what to do with them. You should call him and have him set one aside. That would be wicked in a REPU.

 

Good deal...btw David for future reference you can drain the block via the small intermediate housings plug. you should know u did this a few times lol.

 

Glad to here about those RA seals David. That should silence some critics. BTW pulling these engines and doing the builds is really run. Oh yea, how many dyno runs do you think the engines had with those seals? I figure since were on the housing wear subject, might as well get as much info out their as possible.

 

Wow David, congrats on the great news. Looks like you still have a pretty significant punchlist, but at least this expense will be "fairly" minimal!

 

Those housings need to be resurfaced to build maximum compression. Put your finger over the trailing spark plug hole. Look at all the chattering and scratching on the surface. The Goopy resurfacing was a good call. You'll see what housings are supposed to look like when you get them back. That's only after 7.5k miles, imagine what it would look like after a longer period of time.

thewird

 

yolo!

 

I was expecting worse but David said he was premixing as recommended. However, those were new housings, after 7k miles I would not be pleased if my housings looked like that. Corner seal failure is always related to detonation, what caused that is always hard to pinpoint. To say critics were silenced, thats a stretch with that ridiculous chatter. Either way, Ive seen much worse in 10k miles from 3mm RA seals and Dave got off much better than most due to his pre-mixing. Hopefully we wont see it tore down for 25K plus miles next time. Best of luck.

 

Thanks Steve. That was the first thing we did, drain from the housing plug. What you see in the rest of the pics is what remained after this.

Yes Trey, the seals, at least in my case, were not a problem. Have never pulled an engine before so it was a learning experience. It's not the engine that is the issue, it's all the auxiliary stuff that gets in the way. That has lead me to now go the simplification route, or to remove as much stuff as possible to clean things up.

As for dyno runs, this engine had on it around 10 dyno sessions.

Could get away with a very simple rebuild, but have decided to go for it and fix all the things that have been bugging me, hence the new list

Hey Marco. I should have cleaned the housings before posting up the pics because in person they look a lot better. I took the pics right after we pulled everything apart and with no cleaning so a lot of what you see is oil and carbon residue.

You can take your finger and run it over the entire surface without feeling anything, even over the section with the chatter marks. It's smooth to the touch and definitely nothing grabs with the finer nail. In fact you can't feel anything with your finer nail, not even any bumps or humps.

No, I did not premix. Only on rare occasions like when I went to the dyno or to the track. Everything else was handled through the OMP and stock system.

Regarding the housings, they were new when Gotham rebuilt the engine about 5 years ago. I'd say though that between when they rebuilt it and then blew it, it only had 2,000 miles on it, so the total housing miles are around 9,500. Again, wish I had cleaned them up as the "damage" and "scratching" just isn't there.

Curious why you think the chatter marks would implicate the RA Super Seals? It's my understanding those marks indicate detonation.

Now that is a quote from the past! I can add to that "way, way too much X three!"

 

Rub your finger just above the trailing spark plug hole, you'll feel it . Grab a new apex seal and run it around the spark plug area and shine a light through it and see if light comes out the other side and let us know. The spark plug area is the important one as its the compression side, the rest doesn't matter as much.

thewird

 

Amen! I've now witness many with ALS and would be trying a set of those on my next build. 5 years of testing by others do show positive feedback on those seals

 

That being said and which I agree with you djseven.

David Hayes, did Jesus say the housing showed no wear?

 

On a side note....it's now E and J Apex Seals not ALS. Not sure who will make the seals for ALS in the future

David,

Looks like a good plan you have moving forward. Can't wait to see it together so I can copy you

 

Don't disagree with the use of ALS seals as those were going to be my first choice, but they didn't come in 3mm at least not from Jonathan.

Respectfully though, there is no data on the ALS seals either, just second hand "hey I've tried those and they are great" comments. Point is no one really knows, just like the data is not conclusive on the RA seals. Some love them and others think they eat the housings. In my case, the doubters (including me) were wrong as the RA seals didn't damage the housings and this is without premixing and with the larger 3mm size.

Yes, he said they had little to no wear at all, with the "little" being from some minor scratching caused by the split corner seals.. Spoke with him today again based on the comments in this thread and Kilo says they housings have just about no wear at all and he would expect them to last 5-6 years in an application like mine, or on a high HP engine with a street port and where most of the driving is on the street with occasional track use.

I'll keep you updated for sure and give you the scoop on what works well, especially the v-mount setup. Kilo is sourcing the intercooler core and it will then be customized for my engine bay. The radiator might work the same or I will source that again from Griffin. Kilo wants to use one that fills the entire width of the bay.

Not with the car anymore Marco so I can't do this but like I posted above, talked with Kilo at length and he has checked them and they pass the test.

Sad to say I had to ask my nephew that graduated from high school what this meant and you are right

Wanted to bump this back up as the campaign is still ongoing so your vote would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Who did your light kit originally? did Jesus comment on the carbon at all?

Also, love the wheel choice!!!

 

^ Jesus did and he really likes the carbon. The body shop guys that are doing the paint love them also.

 

Might just do that.

Keep up the good work. Build your car to your liking, as I know you will, and drive the crap out of it when it's finished. Good luck and hope this build is bigger and better than the last one.

 

David,

It was nice to meet you at VIR.

I do have a sugestion on another possibility on the methanol tank that would keep your open space under the hood:

Some others are using the rear washer tank from a euro model that is much larger than the USDM tank. If nothing else it would save you from some fabrication.

Keep up the good work, and hope to see it running at full speed next time!

Vince

 

I'm using a phone to type this. But David, you posted a picture of a housing with what seems to be an abnormal chatter mark for new housing with less than 10k miles. Maybe it's just me but that's common sight of RA seals. Which I have personally seen low mile RA 3mm engines with bad chatter marks. I say if you continued another 10k more miles housing might not be useable. But posting pics like that and saying me and others are doubters kind of makes me wonder what else I'm missing from what I see.. Again, I also have a 2 rotor with 3mm RA engine with less than 2500 miles ill be taking apart along with 2 other engines with oem 2mm with over 60k miles. I'm praying my RA seal housing can be re useable so I can put 2mm ALS seals which far far FAR more people I know personally whom I know their driving habits, power level, and those who knows these engines have proven to me that ALS seals works. Sure it's second hand words, but its by those whom i personally know who have proven to me is why I'm going to invest an engine to try. Goopy seals just don't have any data and I would of chosen OEM vs those. Unless are you being sponsored by Goopy or getting a set free? But even if I were to get a free set of seals it's not worth destroying $800 per housings and rebuilt cost to be a test dummy.

 

Thanks Simon, Kilo would do you proud and that D series he has available now would be perfect. I look forward to getting this done (again) and to enjoying the car.

Hey Vince. Nice meeting you too. Regarding the tank, I would use that for the front washer if I could find one. I like the idea of using it for the meth injection system except it would be located too far from the pump as per the AEM best practices. This is why I am using the stock location front windshield wiper tank for the meth system now. If i use the rear tank for the windshield wiper I wouldn't care if it takes long for the pump to "prime" but that wouldn't work for the meth system.

Thanks for your opinion Phil. I do disagree with most you say though. First, show me where I called anyone a "doubter". What I said is if you thought the RA seals would eat the housings (and I did) then you'd be wrong. The pics are definitive proof of this and I base this on Kilo's observations and conclusions. There is no gouging or scratching on the housings and they are in good shape. We are going to resurface them as I asked for that but regardless, Kilo indicates the housings in my application (3 rotor street car with occasional track use), even without the resurfacing, will be good for 5-7 years of use. I'll take his expertise on this as he has well over 30 years of experience and many hundreds if not thousands of engine builds. Me? Zero.

Regarding the chatter marks, that is abnormal chatter for 10K. But note the chatter is only on one housing, the center housing, or the one that had the corner seal failure. Kilo states the chatter marks have nothing to do with the seals (again, the front and rear housings show no chatter), but are from a lean condition on the center or incorrect timing. If the RA seals were at fault, then you'd see chatter marks on all housings, right? This is exactly the same as when I used the NRS ceramic seals, with the center failing and with chatter marks showing from the failure. It wasn't reasonable to conclude the NRS seals caused chatter marks just because one housing had an issue, so it's not reasonable IMO to blame the problem on RA.

Concerning ALS, those were the first seals I considered but they don't make a 3mm version so I then went to Goopy (which BTW, allrotor93 (John) is a distributor for both). I know ALS is all the rage right now, but what data do we have outside of second hand reports? None that I know of so who knows, maybe a few years from now, we will all be saying to get rid of these as well. Not saying this is right or they aren't any good, we just don't have any data on these either.

Goopy seals have bene around for quite some time now (at least 2006) and have some big name engine builders and tuners using them, but again, the data is inconclusive too. You've got your guys that like a particular brand and I have now talked to enough respected engine builders that use Goopy and are very pleased that I am going to use them in my build. No sponsorship here, just advice from guys that have been around the longest in the rotary community so it works for me. No test dummy intentions here but I'd suggest the ALS and Goopy seals have been around the same time, so maybe we are all testing after all.

Take care.