AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

i think he is gonna be running a bov, and GM iat sensor iirc

BDC

Hey Arrrrghx,

One positive thing I've noticed with this straight pipe design is vastly better boost response. I do think that much of the real limiter there is the old-school, HKS cast iron exhaust manifold, but nonetheless it's much better than it was. I expected it to be the case.

The IAT sensor I use is the exposed-wire kind that the Haltech systems use. It's a type of GM sensor available for alot of domestic cars and similar to factory style. It's a very fast-reacting sensor.

Not sure on the BOV question. I pitched it to Ari and he pitched the possibility of not running one. It'd be less work if I decided to not use one. I've not heard any pros to the idea of it so I may default to just having it welded unto this new pipe.

B

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

As long as you have a throttlebody after the turbo, intercooler or otherwise, you need a blow off valve. If you moved the throttlebody to before the turbo you wouldn't need one.

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

i would think u need one to vent extra air thatis not needed or itll go back towards turbo.

BDC

Any other BOV suggestions? How about recommendations on a good valve? I've had my Turbo XS type H for about 9 years now and I'm considering changing to something else.

B

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Greddy Type RS? the adjustable screw helps

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

im using hks ssqv. newer ssqv dont come with adjustment screws,

BDC

Ran up to Ace Hardware Motorsports and Racing Development today to get not only a shower head for the master bath but also some januwine car parts. Actually, I picked up a 4" aluminum piece I used as a coupler, some 4" dryer exhaust ducting (seen on many race cars, funny enough), and a few other pieces of small hardware. Long story short, I re-located the air filter back outside the engine bay to it's normal spot in the passenger brake duct area below the right headlight.

The temp today here in DFW 'round noon time was about 77-79*F. The cruising air temps on the way to and fro the hardware store were in the high 150's, about 158*F and seeing 160*F at idle at the stoplights. Keeping in step with older IAT data from earlier in the week, there's about an 80* difference there between ambient outside air temps and engine bay temps I'm guessing. I have never, ever been a fan of having the induction air filter sitting on the front of the turbocharger in a hot engine bay. Ever.

After doing the duct work, grinding out the passenger-side fender hole to 4" w/ the filter now relocated outside, and with the air temps having dropped down to about 70-72*F by about 5pm, the cruising IAT's ranged from 113*F to about 122*F at its highest. Most of the time it was around 118*F. So far if my math is correct that's about a 40*F drop from where they were. Also, they seemed to be a bit more variable this time instead of remaining static and hot once everything in the engine bay was heat-soaked.

Even though it's ghettolicious, I'm curious to know how well that 4" exhaust dryer venting is radiating engine bay heat away from the ambient outside air being drawn in from the turbo.

I'll get every little bit I can get when it comes to no intercooler and a large turbo. Don't make fun of my 10-year old, ninja radiator bracketting.

B
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...ion/?g2_page=3 - Check out the last four photos on Page 3.

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

lmao

nice setup, some people may think its getto but like u said ive seen race cars use the same duct also for ducting as well.
i agree bout the filter being outside,cooler air cant hurt can it? :/

how flexible is that stuff? and do u think i will retain heat?
o and how far off the ground is the filter?

BDC

When it comes to air, the colder the better IMO. It has a positive effect everywhere: water temps, oil temps, charge temps, under-the-bonnet temps, everything. Also, as best as I know, it seems to have a fairly substantial effect on final EGT's after it's said and done. Even though the EGT and the fuel used combo is the ultimate determiner of what's too hot and such, I would assert that the IAT's are very important to look at.

The ducting seems to work decently well. The biggest impact so far is the air filter being outside. So far it seems to have dropped IAT's across the board about 45*F. I saw the same thing tonight. Ambient temps dropping into the high 60's outside and the cruising IAT's on the highway were 110-113*F when it evened out. I've got no idea if that ducting is allowing radiated heat to soak it and heat up the air some prior to it reaching the compressor, though. May try a formed 4" pipe that's coated and wrapped later on to see if there's a true benefit to it.

Tonight I did a little bit more. Looks like I'm gonna have to do some more tuning on it. I ran it up to 12lbs of boost for kicks a couple times. The response time with this straight pipe is impressive. It's much better than the older setup. Wish I could hammer into it more but (1) I don't have a working EGT probe so I can't log good EGT voltages and (2) I still don't have a blow-off valve welded on. At 11-12psi I'm using around 12-14% alcohol or so. The system is trickling it on around 8-9psi. By that time, while still being entirely on gasoline the air temps have already risen over 15* and pretty rapidly. What I may wind up having to do on this setup since I'm hot-air is turn the alcohol on at lower boost and re-do the fuel and alcohol curves to match; getting alcohol into the pipe at a sooner time to prevent the spike in IAT's I'm seeing prior to getting to any substantial ratio of gas to alcohol. By 5000rpm at 11-12psi the air temps reached 130*-132* and stayed steady. I didn't stay in it long due to the aforementioned reasons. I didn't run it up to 15psi where I've got a much more robust amount of alcohol being injected (a 70/30 ratio at that point) to see the effect on IAT's. I'm also wondering whether or not the nozzles are too close to the IAT sensor. I don't know how long it takes alcohol to flash and freeze the air. Car ran terrific, though.

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/13621-1/IMG_6290.JPG

Tomorrow the weather is supposed to be pretty cold like in the mid 40's. Supposed to be a cold front come through the middle of the night. From there I can make sure I have the air temp fuel correction map nailed down better. Probably give this a try again and will probably move the staging point of the alcohol back closer towards 2-3-4psi.

B

twokrx7

iTrader: (1)

Hey BDC, here's some food for thought.

I assume you inject water/meth downstream of the turbo? If you have good atomizing nozzles you might consider moving it upstream of the turbo ... it would cool the IAT more as the compression at the turbo results in a ratio of temperature change rather than a delta. I never tried this when I was running WI on my turbo rotary but it might give you a better idea of actual IAT with and without the AI, IC, etc. I would still expect some water droplets to reach the combustion chamber to kill hot spots, so you would still get that portion of the detonation reducing benefits of WI/AI in addition to the octane boost.

Good luck with the testing, this stuff is fun.

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

oo some hard data coming in nice. im kinda wondering bout the sensor and placement of nozzles, im experienceing the same thing i think.
i have mine coming in at 2 psi and full blast at 10 psi and iat really dont drop much if at all, sometimes will go up a degree or two.

13bdarren

I don't recomend to using the that dryer pipe for the intake. I tried it on my car and where the pipe bend after the compressor inlet collapse and sucked into the turbo. I was not running a filter just testing like you were. I was only running 12psi when it happened. with turbo i am using i can't seem to find a good filter to use with this turbo. Ebay gt45 knock off turbo.

BDC

Hmmm. 2nd time I've heard that. May try something else, then. Any suggestions?

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

B,

Looking good man, I really appreciate the data (as my buildup consist of no intercooler). I plan to inject before the turbo, and depending on my results; will inject after the turbo, or will go with an intercooler.

Those RX7club members that have injected without using an intercooler, both used pre & after turbo injection. Have you consider adding before the turbo?

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

im playing with the idea of doing one 2gph pre turbo and one 10gph nozzle after. but first i need a intake muwaha

13bdarren

If you want to stay cheap just use vent duck with the swivel elbows they are rigid enough to take it. The best would solid 4 aluminum piping but thats not cheap enough for me. I am the getto king. I have seen so other flexible piping on race car before but I don't know were to get it or what it is called. It's orange in color and has black wire spring through it. Lots of car use them for brake duct. I will try to find a picture of it.

13bdarren

found it http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/760977/10002/-1

BDC

Ok. Ditching the dryer exhaust ducting. Just picked up some 4" galvanized gas ducting flex pieces and will convert over to that tomorrow. Going to wrap it up with some januwine, neato sealing wrap I got that looks like aluminum tape with a layer of sky-blue adhesive on the bottom. Home Depot Racing Supply to the rescue.

B

13bdarren

sweet getto is the way to roll

MustGoFaster

I'm very interested to see some in boost temp results. I would think you would want to put the BOV a bit up stream of the injection point so you don't get any vented to atmosphere when it opens up. It looks like there might be enough room to put it on the alternator side of the pipe somewhere around that corner.

Edit: Missed page 2! Interesting results so far.

BDC

Makin' a new inlet duct today for the turbo. I also spoke to Julio at Alkycontrol and he told me that some of his diesel-based customers are using M1 nozzles pre-turbo. What I'm going to do is try this setup out first, get some numbers, and see where it is. If I don't like the #'s, I'll go ahead and add the M1 nozzle up in front of the turbo and do a comparison.

B

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Like the first monkeys shot out into space!!! Glad to see it coming along.
There are a few things I noticed:

1. You will get MUCH better AITs with a smaller nozzle (M2 - M4) pre-compressor. Keep the M10 after, but consider moving it away from the TB. Then you won't have to question whether or not the sensor is soaked.

2. You should be getting cooler cruising AITs with OUT the top mount. Is this the case?

3. Consider having the AI come on at 1-5 psi. Then there will be no time for the AIT's to climb. Plus, there will be a little lag before the cooling takes effect. You don't want to wait until 15psi to start injecting... you'll be at 20 before the cooling takes effect.

Nice to see it coming along tho! I am stoked for you!!
You will need a BOV. Here is where I mounted mine.


Under boost, with the AI kicking in instantly, you should see AITs do this (in BLUE):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AEAL2Ej4Lg...h/image004.gif

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

The people saying "you NEED an intercooler" usually have no real basis for their argument other than... "Because you need it".

Having said that, I can make a case for both. You don't NEED a physical intercooler. Yes you are taking a chance and relying another injection system. BTW, there is already one in your car when you got it (fuel injection)

The fact is, AI cools the intake charge more than a metal box with fins. In addition, there is NO loss of boost pressure, and more boost response. AI also provides a detonation deterant...which is HUGE for rotaries.

The problem with physical intercoolers; if you get too large an intercooler, you loose a sh!tTon of boost pressure and blocks flow to your radiator (with FM). Too small, raises AITs and heat soaks. Is the ducting helping or hurting?, if you added ducting? Are you going to cut up your car installing it? Is it placed in the right spot (TM, FM, VM...)?

The pros to running a physical intercooler are, once it's there, it doesn't require anything else. There is nothing to refill, or test. Cools intake charge when in vacuum. No extra gauges required to make sure it's working properly.

After running just AI for several months... Successfully, I think it's best to run a small front mount along with AI. Yes there will be a pressure loss, and response loss, but for the most dependable solution, IMHO, you need the insurance. You can have the most advanced AI system out there, but ONE little mistake will cost you big.

If your car is a track car/racecar, then I see NO reason to have a physical intercooler. Just test the AI system before each run.

BDC

Hi Stylemon.

I'm considering it. The gentleman who designed the AI system I use mentioned using an M1 or perhaps an M3 up front if I can't keep the IAT's under control after moving the TurnOn point from 8-9psi down to alot lower boost level. I've already got a spot on my newly-constructed, gee-whiz, super, ultra, mega-ninja BDC 4" turbo inlet duct. Btw, I use two M10's and not one. I run a whole hell of alot of alcohol.

The opposite and it's what I expected. I believe the factory TMIC is efficacious at low loads and low vehicle speeds (sans stationary at idle). With this hot-air pipe, there's nothing other than the air filter sitting outside that can counter the heat-soaking going on in the engine bay to help keep IAT's down.

The system starts around 8-9psi and then achieves 30psi of head pressure by about 11psi. However, I do agree with your approach of switching it on earlier and it's what I'll be doing next.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've got one; my old one I still have on the old pipe. I just haven't found an aluminum mounting flange for it yet to get it welded in. I'll probably place it on the 45* bend near the turbo discharge.

B