When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I watched this without sound, but this is a good primer on the front cover stack and how it all goes together. He also talks about testing endplay to make sure it's in spec -
No o ring needed on pic 9.
i would not use the shaft.
after reading from the start.. if your oil presure regulator or lines were hooked up the wrong way and you tried to start the car, thats it. A lost of bad stuff could had happened like damaged bearing and oil leaks in strange places.
look up an old vid about rotary engine oil system if you sre interested to undersyand a little better than how i can explain it.. lol
Oh, I forgot to add that I'd probably track down a stock oil pressure regulator and ditch the crushed one. I don't trust it. The FD's oil pressure stock is insane, there's no need to modify it unless you are doing something very exotic.
No o ring needed on pic 9.
i would not use the shaft.
after reading from the start.. if your oil presure regulator or lines were hooked up the wrong way and you tried to start the car, thats it. A lost of bad stuff could had happened like damaged bearing and oil leaks in strange places.
look up an old vid about rotary engine oil system if you sre interested to undersyand a little better than how i can explain it.. lol
Alright thank you I'll throw that shaft in the garbage. This video confirms pretty much that there was no oil coming into the engine or so.
So I think it was the reason to all my problems. Very interesting video!
Originally Posted by DaleClark
Answering some questions -
1- that E-shaft is garbage, get a new one. If it's got burn marks there's probably going to be problems with it, it's not worth trying to re-use.
2 - Yes, you can do the bearings yourself. You do need a hydraulic press for sure. I would get this - https://www.pineappleracing.com/bear...sstoolset.aspx
to do the job. Works great and does both bearings. Read up on bearing installs and the shop manual.
3 - Not sure on that, once you open a motor that's had oil and coolant running through it stuff gets everywhere.
4 - yes, you can re-use o-rings as long as they are in good shape. If they are nicked/torn, flattened, etc. replace them.
5 - No o-ring on the lower dowel pin. Only the top ones, that's why there is a groove around the top dowel pin. O-rings need a space to live in, you can't crush them between two flat surfaces or they won't do anything.
6 - Quite possibly. I'm not sure why you started the car with oil lines not hooked up or whatever, that could also be why you had low/no oil pressure.
7 - can't help you there .
I know this situation sucks, but you are learning. I screwed up a BUNCH of stuff on my first rebuild, mainly with the front cover stack and with the front cover O-ring. I encourage people to build their own engine, it's very rewarding but you have to account that you may have to pull it apart or re-do things.
Dale
Originally Posted by DaleClark
Oh, I forgot to add that I'd probably track down a stock oil pressure regulator and ditch the crushed one. I don't trust it. The FD's oil pressure stock is insane, there's no need to modify it unless you are doing something very exotic.
Dale
Alright, thanks a lot for your answers, now I feel much more confident with this next rebuild. Sadly I'm pretty sure that the engine block was 100% OK. I just ruined it by going too fast and forgetting/mixing external oil lines.
I'm now trying to find rotor bearings, rear main seal, 1 water jacket seal, corner seal plugs... Every Mazdas in the area are closed. It won't be easy to find.
Also, I posted a local WTB for an oil pan, do you think buying a new one is worth or I should be ok with a used one? Money talks here.
Unfortunately, I cannot go to USA at the moment because of the Chinese Virus, so I cannot buy from Ray Crowe. Shipping in Canada is also way too long at the moment.
I've got a couple more observations.
I had 3 Atkins orange inner water seals and 1 of them was partially cracked at the junction and kind of "brittle". I had 1 Mazda inner water seal (brown) and it is soft and new.
I will not buy another rear main seal from Atkins, I've seen some scary threads about them leaking.
Corner seal plugs are the best example I can give for myself. I had 10 x Atkins plugs and 2 x USED Mazda plugs. Why did I do that? I don't know... Because I love trouble I guess... ...or not. The 10 Atkins plugs are completely shot, and the 2 used Mazda still look brand new.
That being said, I will buy all inner water seals, rear main seal and corner seal plugs at the dealership. I don't like what I saw with these parts from Atkins.
Okay! There's a Mazda opened 100 miles from home. I just spend 30 minutes at the phone for some parts.
I'm going to order all bearings:
Front & Rear stationary gears bearings
Rotors bearings
However, for each bearing, they've got plenty of different sizes (oversize?).
Rotor bearings: N3A1-11-B11, N3A2-11-B11, N3A3-11-B11.
Front & Rear stationary gears: apparently it's the same bearing (same part number), but still different sizes: NF01-10-E04, NF01-10-E05, NF01-10-E06, NF01-10-E07, NF01-10-E08...
1. The teflon water seals are not reusables anyways. I used their HD water seals.
2. The main seal from atking is fine as long as is the orange, not the brown.
For the bearings, if you want to get technical, here is some info from Carlos Iglesias.
"To do the measurements correctly you'll need tools to measure the 43mm +/- .06mm Stationary Gear Main Bearing bore (telescoping guage/micrometer)and respective e-Shaft race (outside micrometer). This means more than likely:
- 25-50mm or 1-2" (outside) micrometer - appropriate telescoping guage
Once you have those, measure the inside and outside dimensions of both the front and rear main bearings. Do the same on the e-Shaft. Subtract the e-shaft diameter from the respective main bearing bore and the resulting clearance should be: - outside: .08-.11mm but never >.13mm - inside: .06-.08mm but never >.11mm
If out of clearance, replace with the appropriate bearing.
BTW, the rotor bearing and respective e-shaft race measure 74mm +/- .06mm. Though a telecoping guage will work, unlike the smaller main bearing bore, inside micrometers are also available at this size.
I'll leave discussion of the benefit/offsets of new vs used (within clearance) bearing for a different time/place."
1. The teflon water seals are not reusables anyways. I used their HD water seals.
2. The main seal from atking is fine as long as is the orange, not the brown.
For the bearings, if you want to get technical, here is some info from Carlos Iglesias.
"To do the measurements correctly you'll need tools to measure the 43mm +/- .06mm Stationary Gear Main Bearing bore (telescoping guage/micrometer)and respective e-Shaft race (outside micrometer). This means more than likely:
- 25-50mm or 1-2" (outside) micrometer - appropriate telescoping guage
Once you have those, measure the inside and outside dimensions of both the front and rear main bearings. Do the same on the e-Shaft. Subtract the e-shaft diameter from the respective main bearing bore and the resulting clearance should be: - outside: .08-.11mm but never >.13mm - inside: .06-.08mm but never >.11mm
If out of clearance, replace with the appropriate bearing.
BTW, the rotor bearing and respective e-shaft race measure 74mm +/- .06mm. Though a telecoping guage will work, unlike the smaller main bearing bore, inside micrometers are also available at this size.
I'll leave discussion of the benefit/offsets of new vs used (within clearance) bearing for a different time/place."
Alright, I bought all possible micrometers for this engine so I should be able to measure this... But I've got to buy a used eccentric shaft first (already found one local also).
Originally Posted by Red94fd
I would do yellow stamped 1.980 mm for the main
3mm for the rotor bearing.
I'll measure the clearance first, but it is well noted. Thanks a lot for your detailed answer!
A local knowledgeable rotary guy told me that I would not be able to change the bearings myself.
I'm about to buy a brand new 10-Ton hydraulic press ($300ish) for this bearing project. He told me I should let a machinist do the job instead.
Hard to say., i dont know your skills with the press. Do you have the tools for the bearings?. I know you have to align the bearing windows correctly especially where the screw goes on the stationary gears. If you dont align well, the bearing will deform easily. There are some people that add loctite to the outer side of the bearing when pressing new ones. I had someone do it for me cause i didnt feel confortable with the idea that i could mess it up.. lol
check this out..
Hard to say., i dont know your skills with the press. Do you have the tools for the bearings?. I know you have to align the bearing windows correctly especially where the screw goes on the stationary gears. If you dont align well, the bearing will deform easily. There are some people that add loctite to the outer side of the bearing when pressing new ones. I had someone do it for me cause i didnt feel confortable with the idea that i could mess it up.. lol
check this out..
I entirely watched the video, too bad he doesn't talk about the alignment... I think I feel fairly comfortable doing this. I pressed in wheel bearings before, hardest part is too find the matching tool to press it in. However there was no alignement needed like this rotor bearing.
And I guess I will need the rotor bearing tool AND the stationary gear tool... Oh well.
Okay I just got my new (used) shaft. Measurements are the same for each end. 42.98mm and 73.98mm. I did my human best to measure it. Can I still go ahead with standard bearing sizes?
Yes, you should be good to go.
I wouldn't use the oil pressure regulator though. There is a different way to do that instead of crushing the regulator, but thats another topic. The reason is that has been documented issues where oil coolers get blown by the pressure of mods like this. Like Dale said, i would not trust it..
The Pineapple tool kit I linked does both stationary gear and rotor bearings.
I've done a few rotor bearings and they aren't bad to do. Used a Harbor Freight hydraulic press. I also put the new bearing in the freezer over night just to shrink it a little. Bearing went in without too much drama.
Trick I learned on that from a buddy - the rotor bearings have a little bent tab that corresponds to a indentation on the rotor to keep it locked in place. On the new bearing, use a straight edge and draw a line with a Sharpie down from the bent tab, makes lining it up on the rotor a piece of cake.
On the stationary gear bearings I've not done one of those personally but a similar principle should apply.
The Pineapple tool works great, it won't let you over-press the bearing in, fits absolutely perfectly, and is very well made and sturdy.
Yes, you should be good to go.
I wouldn't use the oil pressure regulator though. There is a different way to do that instead of crushing the regulator, but thats another topic. The reason is that has been documented issues where oil coolers get blown by the pressure of mods like this. Like Dale said, i would not trust it..
Considering that I've got a circular scratch where the oil pump bolts to, I think I will give a chance to that crushed regulator. A well-known rotary shop did the "crush".
Originally Posted by DaleClark
The Pineapple tool kit I linked does both stationary gear and rotor bearings.
I've done a few rotor bearings and they aren't bad to do. Used a Harbor Freight hydraulic press. I also put the new bearing in the freezer over night just to shrink it a little. Bearing went in without too much drama.
Trick I learned on that from a buddy - the rotor bearings have a little bent tab that corresponds to a indentation on the rotor to keep it locked in place. On the new bearing, use a straight edge and draw a line with a Sharpie down from the bent tab, makes lining it up on the rotor a piece of cake.
On the stationary gear bearings I've not done one of those personally but a similar principle should apply.
The Pineapple tool works great, it won't let you over-press the bearing in, fits absolutely perfectly, and is very well made and sturdy.
Dale
A straight edge and a chalk... I like the idea. However I hope the straight edge will fit into the main bearings... Worst case I'll just take a regular ruler.
I was just about to buy everything again from Atkins (but with OEM water jackets, OEM rear main seal and OEM corner seal plugs), but Pineapple does offer the tools for cheaper, so I'm thinking about it... The tools are gonna be either from Pineapple or Atkins.
What do you guys think of the corner seal plugs? Isn't it shocking? There's no way I'm putting back Atkins corner seal plugs in there.
Atkins makes their own versions of a lot of the OEM parts, some are good some are not so good. I have a feeling those seals would probably do their job fine but they sure look like hell.
I know shipping from the US is a concern, but I would trend towards getting the Pineapple install tool. It is less and it's VERY well engineered. If you don't have an engine stand adapter, theirs is fantastic as well.
Atkins makes their own versions of a lot of the OEM parts, some are good some are not so good. I have a feeling those seals would probably do their job fine but they sure look like hell.
I know shipping from the US is a concern, but I would trend towards getting the Pineapple install tool. It is less and it's VERY well engineered. If you don't have an engine stand adapter, theirs is fantastic as well.
Dale
I think I'll listen to you and I'll buy Pineapple tools instead of Atkins.
By the way, I've been dealing with Atkins for a couple of years now. And I can politely say that I am not satisfied at all with their customer service. Sorry for the quick off topic.
I'll keep you guys updated once the project resumes, now I'm just waiting for Atkins Rotary to reply to my emails.
I put in the N3A1-11-B11 high clearance bearings. I also mic'd my e shaft to make sure the clearance wouldn't be excessive.
I can see that most people are using N3A1-11-B11. I'm also going for it then! My main challlenge will be to press the new one in there without damaging it. I'll have to take my time. I'm also going to use NF01-10-E04 for the main bearings.
What means "mic'd"? Micrometered?
I just ordered Pineapple Racing bearing press tool set. Funny guy through the phone. Atkins answered my email, I should be able to order soon as well.
Now the project should be on standby for a few weeks... It takes a while to ship from USA to Canada these days.
You probably talked to Rob Golden who is the owner of Pineapple, really nice guy.
In the short term I would organize and remove the seals from the rotors and clean EVERYTHING well. I also fog all freshly cleaned parts with WD-40, that keeps flash rust away. Leave the seals out until you get the rotor bearings done.
You probably talked to Rob Golden who is the owner of Pineapple, really nice guy.
In the short term I would organize and remove the seals from the rotors and clean EVERYTHING well. I also fog all freshly cleaned parts with WD-40, that keeps flash rust away. Leave the seals out until you get the rotor bearings done.
Did you find a source for an eccentric shaft?
Dale
Thanks for the WD-40 idea - really nice idea. I'll do it tonight.
I bought another used eccentric shaft a couple of days ago.
But.
I don't like the idea of removing the seals (and potentially breaking something again) to clean the rotors again. I cleaned them before, it is fairly clean already. I'll have to clean where the corner seals/apex seals go but I think that will be about it.
I don't blame you of thinking like that, but you should listen to this one. It is very important to be 100% sure that every part like rotors, seals and oil galeries are clean. You can have bearing fragments in places that you might not think of. At the end it is up to you though.. I am just saying..
I don't like the idea of removing the seals (and potentially breaking something again) to clean the rotors again. I cleaned them before, it is fairly clean already. I'll have to clean where the corner seals/apex seals go but I think that will be about it.
Since you'll be handling the rotors a lot to maneuver them on the press you're going to have to remove the seals, otherwise they may fall out, get damaged, or get lost. Cleaning should be minimal on the rotors hopefully. I would get all the old oil out of the rotor as well, just to be certain there's no trash down inside the rotor.
The sides of the rotors have labels on the slots. You can use those labels to identify the side seals and where they go to make reassembly much easier.
03-30-20, 10:59 AM
.
