Trouble getting the car started after rebuild
04-19-20, 01:57 PM
#303
Mazdatrix says in their DVD "One of the best part about Hylomar is it doesn't dry. If you need to walk away from this process, it's not a problem."
04-20-20, 09:04 AM
#304
Hylomar is great. It's a joint compound developed for fuel resistance in Rolls Royce turbines. It helps o-rings and gaskets seal and by it self can seal precision joints/flanges. It is not meant for sealing things like oil pans or water pumps by itself.
There are several types of hylomar. The original version that everyone used to use was the Permatex Hylomar HPF, but it became unavailable. It was a true non-setting sealant. I think you can still get a similar version from Hylomar called Hylomar M.
Another version is solvent based and it's a pain in the *** to work with because it gets tacky and dries somewhat. The original is where it's at and I still have a couple tubes I found on ebay.
FWIW I followed the advice of Rotary Resurrection on all my builds which is to fully coat the o-rings in Hylomar and install in irons. Then, fully coat the entire mating surfaces of rotor housings in a thin film of ultra black RTV. Obviously assemble before it hardens. Cooling system has been tight as a drum ever since.
There are several types of hylomar. The original version that everyone used to use was the Permatex Hylomar HPF, but it became unavailable. It was a true non-setting sealant. I think you can still get a similar version from Hylomar called Hylomar M.
Another version is solvent based and it's a pain in the *** to work with because it gets tacky and dries somewhat. The original is where it's at and I still have a couple tubes I found on ebay.
FWIW I followed the advice of Rotary Resurrection on all my builds which is to fully coat the o-rings in Hylomar and install in irons. Then, fully coat the entire mating surfaces of rotor housings in a thin film of ultra black RTV. Obviously assemble before it hardens. Cooling system has been tight as a drum ever since.
04-20-20, 03:03 PM
#305
Hylomar is great. It's a joint compound developed for fuel resistance in Rolls Royce turbines. It helps o-rings and gaskets seal and by it self can seal precision joints/flanges. It is not meant for sealing things like oil pans or water pumps by itself.
There are several types of hylomar. The original version that everyone used to use was the Permatex Hylomar HPF, but it became unavailable. It was a true non-setting sealant. I think you can still get a similar version from Hylomar called Hylomar M.
Another version is solvent based and it's a pain in the *** to work with because it gets tacky and dries somewhat. The original is where it's at and I still have a couple tubes I found on ebay.
FWIW I followed the advice of Rotary Resurrection on all my builds which is to fully coat the o-rings in Hylomar and install in irons. Then, fully coat the entire mating surfaces of rotor housings in a thin film of ultra black RTV. Obviously assemble before it hardens. Cooling system has been tight as a drum ever since.
There are several types of hylomar. The original version that everyone used to use was the Permatex Hylomar HPF, but it became unavailable. It was a true non-setting sealant. I think you can still get a similar version from Hylomar called Hylomar M.
Another version is solvent based and it's a pain in the *** to work with because it gets tacky and dries somewhat. The original is where it's at and I still have a couple tubes I found on ebay.
FWIW I followed the advice of Rotary Resurrection on all my builds which is to fully coat the o-rings in Hylomar and install in irons. Then, fully coat the entire mating surfaces of rotor housings in a thin film of ultra black RTV. Obviously assemble before it hardens. Cooling system has been tight as a drum ever since.
Today, I would like to continue the corner seal plugs story. I needed a new corner seal (one of them began to rust). I bought it from Mazda and it came with the plug.
I also received OEM corner seal plugs from Atkins.
Left is Mazda OEM, right is "Atkins OEM". Left is exactly like the 2 plugs that are still brand new from my engine, right is exactly like the 10 plugs that got completely destroyed.
But they are both OEM... Both came in a bag with a blue and white Mazda tag, however Atkins bag is "Ziploc".
Something is strange here. Now that I know that my corner seal plugs will get destroyed again, I'm thinking about reopening the engine all over again just to change them with "local Mazda OEM".
What do you think?
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; 04-20-20 at 03:07 PM.
04-20-20, 09:14 PM
#306
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
I think that Atkins has been called out elsewhere for listing stuff as "OEM" on their website when it's actually just an oem replacement made by a third party.
Go through Ray Crowe for anything that you want to be sure of as OEM.
Go through Ray Crowe for anything that you want to be sure of as OEM.
04-20-20, 09:15 PM
#307
Wow! I just quickly searched on Google "Atkins OEM not OEM", there's a thread about it on here that has been started April 10th...
https://www.rx7club.com/bad-fugly-bu...rices-1143367/
Wow! I don't feel lonely anymore. I paid extra money to get OEM stuff and I got screwed. If you don't mind guys, I'll continue that corner seal plugs subject on that thread. I'll come back with technical stuff for my rebuild.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; 04-20-20 at 09:21 PM.
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fendamonky (04-20-20)
04-20-20, 09:24 PM
#308
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MuRCieLaGo (04-21-20)
04-21-20, 08:27 AM
#309
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Atkins has done some great stuff for the rotary community, making NLA parts and gaskets, and they have a great website for ordering parts. That said, some of their parts are sub standard and they need to be more transparent on OEM and reproduction parts.
That said, the OEM corner seal you have there looks correct, that plug should be sharp and crisp and fit into the corner seal very nicely and not want to fall out or rotate.
On Hylomar, it used to be very commonly available at all parts stores from Permatex. It was a thick, sticky translucent blue goo and it would NEVER dry out or harden. Back in the day I had a sheet of plywood and 2 sawhorses that was my engine building table (back in my broke college days!) and it lived outside when it wasn't in use. The table had some Hylomar on it just from being near the site of activity, I would get that table out after MONTHS of hot Florida weather, sun, rain, you name it and the Hylomar was like I just got it out of the tube - still the same color, stickiness, and consistency.
Over time I stopped using Hylomar when I build an engine - the only thing I use it on is a THIN smear on the dowel pin O-rings to keep them in place during assembly. I have a "vintage" tube for that.
For the water seals, I picked up a trick years ago - Crisco. I have a fat syringe that I bought from Wal-Mart ages ago that's for measuring 2-stroke oil to mix into gas for lawn equipment. I load the Crisco up in the syringe and fill the water seal grooves with it. Then, press the seals into the Crisco. It holds the seals in place wonderfully, it's not petroleum based so it won't break down the rubber, and it's fine if it gets anywhere else in the engine (water passages, etc.). Been doing this on many builds for 20 years with zero problems. It's also not a sticky goo mess and is readily available. The Crisco easily wipes off with a paper towel.
On the RTV on the rotor housing surfaces, I know Kevin Landers would do a THIN THIN THIN skim coat of RTV on the rotor housing surface to fill any tiny pits on a used rotor housing. This is to insure there's isn't a void the water seal is pressing against on the rotor housing. I think some of that is a little overkill but I think it's moreso a case-by-case thing with the condition the rotor housings are in.
Chemical-wise on my engine builds, I use -
- Assembly lube on all engine friction surfaces. This is all the smooth internal surfaces (rotor housing chrome surface, the part of the iron the rotor spins against) and on the bearings and E-shaft.
- Crisco vegetable shortening in the coolant seal grooves. Fill the grooves, wipe up excess, press water seals into grooves.
- Old school Hylomar on rotor housing dowel pin O-rings. You could use Vaseline for this purpose as well.
- Hondabond or Loctite 5900 on the rotor housing legs. I've been using the Loctite product from a recommendation from IRP for oil pans, it does great for sealing oil pans.
- Cheap 20w50 motor oil to lubricate corner seals, apex seals, side seals, etc. during assembly. I also put a dab on the apex seal springs when installing them, some on the dowel pins, the tension bolt washers, and the threads of the tension bolts.
Everyone has different ways of building engines and different philosophies. I've built about 40-50 engines at this point and I try to learn something on each one I do. This combination is what I've settled on after a long time, it makes sense to me, it's reliable, and it works.
Dale
That said, the OEM corner seal you have there looks correct, that plug should be sharp and crisp and fit into the corner seal very nicely and not want to fall out or rotate.
On Hylomar, it used to be very commonly available at all parts stores from Permatex. It was a thick, sticky translucent blue goo and it would NEVER dry out or harden. Back in the day I had a sheet of plywood and 2 sawhorses that was my engine building table (back in my broke college days!) and it lived outside when it wasn't in use. The table had some Hylomar on it just from being near the site of activity, I would get that table out after MONTHS of hot Florida weather, sun, rain, you name it and the Hylomar was like I just got it out of the tube - still the same color, stickiness, and consistency.
Over time I stopped using Hylomar when I build an engine - the only thing I use it on is a THIN smear on the dowel pin O-rings to keep them in place during assembly. I have a "vintage" tube for that.
For the water seals, I picked up a trick years ago - Crisco. I have a fat syringe that I bought from Wal-Mart ages ago that's for measuring 2-stroke oil to mix into gas for lawn equipment. I load the Crisco up in the syringe and fill the water seal grooves with it. Then, press the seals into the Crisco. It holds the seals in place wonderfully, it's not petroleum based so it won't break down the rubber, and it's fine if it gets anywhere else in the engine (water passages, etc.). Been doing this on many builds for 20 years with zero problems. It's also not a sticky goo mess and is readily available. The Crisco easily wipes off with a paper towel.
On the RTV on the rotor housing surfaces, I know Kevin Landers would do a THIN THIN THIN skim coat of RTV on the rotor housing surface to fill any tiny pits on a used rotor housing. This is to insure there's isn't a void the water seal is pressing against on the rotor housing. I think some of that is a little overkill but I think it's moreso a case-by-case thing with the condition the rotor housings are in.
Chemical-wise on my engine builds, I use -
- Assembly lube on all engine friction surfaces. This is all the smooth internal surfaces (rotor housing chrome surface, the part of the iron the rotor spins against) and on the bearings and E-shaft.
- Crisco vegetable shortening in the coolant seal grooves. Fill the grooves, wipe up excess, press water seals into grooves.
- Old school Hylomar on rotor housing dowel pin O-rings. You could use Vaseline for this purpose as well.
- Hondabond or Loctite 5900 on the rotor housing legs. I've been using the Loctite product from a recommendation from IRP for oil pans, it does great for sealing oil pans.
- Cheap 20w50 motor oil to lubricate corner seals, apex seals, side seals, etc. during assembly. I also put a dab on the apex seal springs when installing them, some on the dowel pins, the tension bolt washers, and the threads of the tension bolts.
Everyone has different ways of building engines and different philosophies. I've built about 40-50 engines at this point and I try to learn something on each one I do. This combination is what I've settled on after a long time, it makes sense to me, it's reliable, and it works.
Dale
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04-21-20, 10:10 AM
#311
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
My 1600-word lock and key writeup about broke my hands the other day 
. I've been thinking about it, though!
Dale
. I've been thinking about it, though!Dale
04-21-20, 03:45 PM
#312
I just closed the engine block. I just want to make sure: is there anything I have to install between the rear stationary gear and the flywheel (except the woodruff key that goes on the eccentric shaft)? My car is manual, so there's no counterweight... But anything else?
04-22-20, 09:37 AM
#314
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
[QUOTE=MuRCieLaGo;12406619]
I just closed the engine block. I just want to make sure: is there anything I have to install between the rear stationary gear and the flywheel (except the woodruff key that goes on the eccentric shaft)? My car is manual, so there's no counterweight... But anything else?
[QUOTE]
Make sure the part of the flywheel that rubs against the orange rear main seal is smooth and doesn't have any surface rust or roughness. If so, sand it down with fine grit sandpaper. Coat the surface with clean engine oil and install the flywheel.
The flywheel nut itself gets a skim coat of RTV on the face of the nut that touches the flywheel and blue Loctite on the threads.
Dale
I just closed the engine block. I just want to make sure: is there anything I have to install between the rear stationary gear and the flywheel (except the woodruff key that goes on the eccentric shaft)? My car is manual, so there's no counterweight... But anything else?
[QUOTE]
Make sure the part of the flywheel that rubs against the orange rear main seal is smooth and doesn't have any surface rust or roughness. If so, sand it down with fine grit sandpaper. Coat the surface with clean engine oil and install the flywheel.
The flywheel nut itself gets a skim coat of RTV on the face of the nut that touches the flywheel and blue Loctite on the threads.
Dale
04-22-20, 09:11 PM
#315
Make sure the part of the flywheel that rubs against the orange rear main seal is smooth and doesn't have any surface rust or roughness. If so, sand it down with fine grit sandpaper. Coat the surface with clean engine oil and install the flywheel.
The flywheel nut itself gets a skim coat of RTV on the face of the nut that touches the flywheel and blue Loctite on the threads.
Dale
The flywheel nut itself gets a skim coat of RTV on the face of the nut that touches the flywheel and blue Loctite on the threads.
Dale
I just measured the front end play: 0.06mm, so it's within specs!
I'm now stuck, I need an oil pump and oil pan. I could get them tomorrow.
No question for today!
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; 04-23-20 at 03:50 PM.
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DaleClark (04-23-20)
04-24-20, 04:29 PM
#316
Today, I received:
I want to add something: front cover was dry when I took it off. Very dry, no oil whatsoever in there. I guess it is the reason for my mixed up oil lines... Paper gasket is still brand new.
I couldn't continue because I need a new gasket for the oil pickup tube and pilot bearing/seal. I will have to visit the dealership. Or can I buy all this from the local auto parts store? And to remove the old pilot bearing... I guess I will have to use some bread.
- Oil pump (not in perfect condition, but usable in my opinion)
- Oil pan
- New single turbo harness (what a gift I did to myself!
I want to add something: front cover was dry when I took it off. Very dry, no oil whatsoever in there. I guess it is the reason for my mixed up oil lines... Paper gasket is still brand new.
I couldn't continue because I need a new gasket for the oil pickup tube and pilot bearing/seal. I will have to visit the dealership. Or can I buy all this from the local auto parts store? And to remove the old pilot bearing... I guess I will have to use some bread.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; 04-24-20 at 11:22 PM.
04-25-20, 08:47 AM
#317
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Post up a pic of the new oil pump!
Yeah, if that front cover is dry that's what was going on.
The gasket for the oil pickup tube is going to be a dealer item, same for the pilot bearing/seal. It's a paper gasket and you could in theory make one out of gasket material but I wouldn't risk it, that's a REALLY important gasket.
The pilot bearing is best removed with a slide hammer tool. Mazda has a WONDERFUL tool to do the job but it can be hard to find/expensive. There are aftermarket tool kits that come with a set of attachments for a slide hammer, I would try and find something like that to do the job than going the bread route. The slide hammer literally removes the pilot bearing in 10 seconds, all other techniques take FOREVER and result in a lot of frustration. I would not recommend using a Dremel or something to cut the bearing for removal, it's really easy to gouge the eccentric shaft and possibly cause damage so a new bearing won't fit properly.
Dale
Yeah, if that front cover is dry that's what was going on.
The gasket for the oil pickup tube is going to be a dealer item, same for the pilot bearing/seal. It's a paper gasket and you could in theory make one out of gasket material but I wouldn't risk it, that's a REALLY important gasket.
The pilot bearing is best removed with a slide hammer tool. Mazda has a WONDERFUL tool to do the job but it can be hard to find/expensive. There are aftermarket tool kits that come with a set of attachments for a slide hammer, I would try and find something like that to do the job than going the bread route. The slide hammer literally removes the pilot bearing in 10 seconds, all other techniques take FOREVER and result in a lot of frustration. I would not recommend using a Dremel or something to cut the bearing for removal, it's really easy to gouge the eccentric shaft and possibly cause damage so a new bearing won't fit properly.
Dale
04-25-20, 10:57 AM
#318
Post up a pic of the new oil pump!
Yeah, if that front cover is dry that's what was going on.
The gasket for the oil pickup tube is going to be a dealer item, same for the pilot bearing/seal. It's a paper gasket and you could in theory make one out of gasket material but I wouldn't risk it, that's a REALLY important gasket.
The pilot bearing is best removed with a slide hammer tool. Mazda has a WONDERFUL tool to do the job but it can be hard to find/expensive. There are aftermarket tool kits that come with a set of attachments for a slide hammer, I would try and find something like that to do the job than going the bread route. The slide hammer literally removes the pilot bearing in 10 seconds, all other techniques take FOREVER and result in a lot of frustration. I would not recommend using a Dremel or something to cut the bearing for removal, it's really easy to gouge the eccentric shaft and possibly cause damage so a new bearing won't fit properly.
Dale
Yeah, if that front cover is dry that's what was going on.
The gasket for the oil pickup tube is going to be a dealer item, same for the pilot bearing/seal. It's a paper gasket and you could in theory make one out of gasket material but I wouldn't risk it, that's a REALLY important gasket.
The pilot bearing is best removed with a slide hammer tool. Mazda has a WONDERFUL tool to do the job but it can be hard to find/expensive. There are aftermarket tool kits that come with a set of attachments for a slide hammer, I would try and find something like that to do the job than going the bread route. The slide hammer literally removes the pilot bearing in 10 seconds, all other techniques take FOREVER and result in a lot of frustration. I would not recommend using a Dremel or something to cut the bearing for removal, it's really easy to gouge the eccentric shaft and possibly cause damage so a new bearing won't fit properly.
Dale
I will not use a Dremel for sure to remove that pilot bearing. I will try to find a slide hammer locally but I think it is going to be hard. Last time I used a pick (and it was frustrating).
04-25-20, 12:33 PM
#319
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Yeah that pump looks like it's supposed to! I would make sure it spins nicely and maybe pack some assembly lube into it and turn it a few times.
You may want to see if there are auto parts stores that lend tools out. Autozone does (don't know if they are in Canada) and they have a slider hammer pilot bearing remover that's OK. You can borrow the tool for free (they charge your card and credit when you return).
Or, maybe ask around mechanic shops to see if a mechanic has something like that. Bring them the E-shaft and hand them a $20 bill to remove it.
Dale
You may want to see if there are auto parts stores that lend tools out. Autozone does (don't know if they are in Canada) and they have a slider hammer pilot bearing remover that's OK. You can borrow the tool for free (they charge your card and credit when you return).
Or, maybe ask around mechanic shops to see if a mechanic has something like that. Bring them the E-shaft and hand them a $20 bill to remove it.
Dale
04-25-20, 08:59 PM
#320
Yeah that pump looks like it's supposed to! I would make sure it spins nicely and maybe pack some assembly lube into it and turn it a few times.
You may want to see if there are auto parts stores that lend tools out. Autozone does (don't know if they are in Canada) and they have a slider hammer pilot bearing remover that's OK. You can borrow the tool for free (they charge your card and credit when you return).
Or, maybe ask around mechanic shops to see if a mechanic has something like that. Bring them the E-shaft and hand them a $20 bill to remove it.
Dale
You may want to see if there are auto parts stores that lend tools out. Autozone does (don't know if they are in Canada) and they have a slider hammer pilot bearing remover that's OK. You can borrow the tool for free (they charge your card and credit when you return).
Or, maybe ask around mechanic shops to see if a mechanic has something like that. Bring them the E-shaft and hand them a $20 bill to remove it.
Dale
I would have NEVER asked a local mechanic shop. I would have prefered to wait a week or two to get the tool, worst case scenario.
But I still don't have the pilot bearing/seal/pick up tube gasket. So that project won't continue before tuesday.
I would say I'm probably going to crank the engine again before next weekend!
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DaleClark (04-27-20)
04-27-20, 08:57 AM
#321
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Keep us posted! I'm hoping for a happy outcome to all this!
Dale
Dale
04-28-20, 04:27 PM
#322
Hopefully the end is near!
Today I received all parts. Oil pan is now installed, pilot bearing and seal installed. I am now letting the engine block sit for a few hours because of RTV. I know I could install it right now but I don't want to take any chance at this point.
And also, the worst part is about to happen. Getting that engine connected to the transmission...
I always had some trouble doing so. And this time it is going to be even worst because I'm going to be alone. Ouch.
Today I received all parts. Oil pan is now installed, pilot bearing and seal installed. I am now letting the engine block sit for a few hours because of RTV. I know I could install it right now but I don't want to take any chance at this point.
And also, the worst part is about to happen. Getting that engine connected to the transmission...
I always had some trouble doing so. And this time it is going to be even worst because I'm going to be alone. Ouch.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; 04-29-20 at 09:02 AM.
04-29-20, 09:58 AM
#323
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
I assume the transmission is in the car and you're dropping the engine in. Few tricks here.
First, get a floor jack under the transmission and bring it up as high as it will go. That helps big time for getting it to line up. Make sure you can EASILY slide the clutch alignment tool in and out of the clutch and pilot bearing, if that's not lined up dead on the input shaft won't want to go into place and you'll fight that.
Do you have stock or aftermarket engine mounts? Aftermarket ones you can leave the pucks int the subframe, get the trans lined up and a few bolts in, then run the bolt up in the engine mounts. For stock you can put the mounts in the subframe with the nut on the bottom on LOOSELY (just a few threads) so you can flop the mount around to line it up.
Once the trans and engine start to come together and you've got about a half inch gap you can use a trans to engine bolt at the bottom to bring them fully together. if it's binding and not pulling together stop and re-evaluate.
This job is WAY easier with an assistant or two, but it can be tricky to find help during a quarantine!
Dale
First, get a floor jack under the transmission and bring it up as high as it will go. That helps big time for getting it to line up. Make sure you can EASILY slide the clutch alignment tool in and out of the clutch and pilot bearing, if that's not lined up dead on the input shaft won't want to go into place and you'll fight that.
Do you have stock or aftermarket engine mounts? Aftermarket ones you can leave the pucks int the subframe, get the trans lined up and a few bolts in, then run the bolt up in the engine mounts. For stock you can put the mounts in the subframe with the nut on the bottom on LOOSELY (just a few threads) so you can flop the mount around to line it up.
Once the trans and engine start to come together and you've got about a half inch gap you can use a trans to engine bolt at the bottom to bring them fully together. if it's binding and not pulling together stop and re-evaluate.
This job is WAY easier with an assistant or two, but it can be tricky to find help during a quarantine!
Dale
04-29-20, 10:36 AM
#324
I assume the transmission is in the car and you're dropping the engine in. Few tricks here.
First, get a floor jack under the transmission and bring it up as high as it will go. That helps big time for getting it to line up. Make sure you can EASILY slide the clutch alignment tool in and out of the clutch and pilot bearing, if that's not lined up dead on the input shaft won't want to go into place and you'll fight that.
Do you have stock or aftermarket engine mounts? Aftermarket ones you can leave the pucks int the subframe, get the trans lined up and a few bolts in, then run the bolt up in the engine mounts. For stock you can put the mounts in the subframe with the nut on the bottom on LOOSELY (just a few threads) so you can flop the mount around to line it up.
Once the trans and engine start to come together and you've got about a half inch gap you can use a trans to engine bolt at the bottom to bring them fully together. if it's binding and not pulling together stop and re-evaluate.
This job is WAY easier with an assistant or two, but it can be tricky to find help during a quarantine!
Dale
First, get a floor jack under the transmission and bring it up as high as it will go. That helps big time for getting it to line up. Make sure you can EASILY slide the clutch alignment tool in and out of the clutch and pilot bearing, if that's not lined up dead on the input shaft won't want to go into place and you'll fight that.
Do you have stock or aftermarket engine mounts? Aftermarket ones you can leave the pucks int the subframe, get the trans lined up and a few bolts in, then run the bolt up in the engine mounts. For stock you can put the mounts in the subframe with the nut on the bottom on LOOSELY (just a few threads) so you can flop the mount around to line it up.
Once the trans and engine start to come together and you've got about a half inch gap you can use a trans to engine bolt at the bottom to bring them fully together. if it's binding and not pulling together stop and re-evaluate.
This job is WAY easier with an assistant or two, but it can be tricky to find help during a quarantine!
Dale
I've got aftermarket engine mounts, I'm not too concerned about them, never had a problem.
There's something I do not understand. 1/2'' gap? I thought that the engine and transmission would be completely together before using any bolt?
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MuRCieLaGo (04-29-20)