KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

yeah, that car belongs to sgtblue on here, good guy, possibly the cleanest FD I've ever seen after gordon's. I would have no problem eating off of his UIM, but he'd kill me. On the same train of thought I've got another picture from that meet, I'll start a new thread for those pictures tho.
My BOV is hiding underneath the rear turbo intake filter, you can kind of see the rubber hose hiding underneath and you can follow the vacuum hose coming off of the T down to it also.
Back on topic. I was discussing this same thing with another local rotary guy and he runs his meth nozzle before his IAT sensor too. So it looks like that's the way I'm gonna go. I think I'm gonna try and find a way to use the hole from the IAT sensor for the nozzle.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

it probably isn't crucial as to IAT location since you can tune around it. general thinking is that it is better to get it out from under the heat soaking UIM. apparently if you start the engine when it is very warm it takes a while for the sensor to back down to the actual charge air temp passing by it into the engine causing the engine to go lean on startup.

i relocated my IAT in 04 to the front of my IC- to- Elbow aluminum pipe.

location of methanol AI is another matter. actual experiences show the meth needs some distance before the elbow to atomise. my nozzles are at the leading section of my Greddy elbow. my UIM is very cold to the touch after a dyno pull.

hc

BDC

For what it's worth, the IAT sensor I use (GM Style on my Haltech) is located at the throttle body inlet with the two M10 alcohol injectors way further upstream and staggered apart 10". Like Howard said, the thing that "worked" for my setup was giving the alcohol enough time to flash into a gas and pull heat out of the hot-air pipe prior to it hitting the TB/intake manifolds. I still don't understand why fully but the numbers didn't lie to me.

B

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

A TALE OF TWO MOTORS

here's the executive summary...

two motors built by me this year.

one w an R85 and 1260 CC of methanol under boost. 501 standard rwhp at 20 psi

one w a T51r 500 CC of water meth. i stopped the session around 459 when i realised the setup had only 500 CC. i felt that he had ALREADY exceeded what should have been run hp-wise given a lack of enough AI injectant.

i had the opportunity to disassemble both motors.

the motor with 1260 cc (two M10 nozzles) has dead straight apex seals and excellent compression.

the motor w 500 cc of water meth has warped apex seals and weak compression.

both motors were well tuned by Steve Kan and have proper supporting mods.

you may draw your own conclusions.

my conclusion is you don't make over 400 rwhp without at least 1000 CCs of methanol. under 400 hp probably less will do the trick. over 400, if you want straight apex seals you need to load up.

water? i don't know and defer to others.


BTW, nice engine compartment Brian and thanks for your conclusive research re the absolute need to position alcohol upstream a bit.

howard

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

The heat soak problem isn't an issue with the fast reacting sensors that we are refering to. They read the air temp nearly instantly. Just breathing on them changes the temp reading. If he was using the stock sensor i would be more inclined to spray after.
.
Thats interesting about the engines. Pretty much what i expected with meth, you need enough to cool things down and increase the octane rating. Although as power goes up the pressures in the engine are increased anyways, if the engine didn't blow maybe there is some other differences that had an effect on wearing it out faster. Different springs or apex seals, how hard it was driven, mileage. Stuff like that.

///engine didn't blow, just lost some compression due to overheated-warped apex seals. hc///

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

so for my current goals, 2 760cc nozzles with a 150psi pump will be more than enough? I'm shooting for just under 400hp, but I think ahead and I would like to push 450 at the wheels on a single next winter.

BDC

Yep that's plenty, KKM.

B

WaachBack

iTrader: (21)

For meth that is more then enough and for water that would be major overkill.

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

Yes, meth, thanks guys

wolf_9782

im going to start getting my ducks in a row for a water/meth kit. my hp goals are a maximum of 380whp, what would be a good recommendation with the amount of CCs for a 50/50 mix?

ive been following this thread for a long time however im still pretty much new to this concept. howard's latest post in regards to the comparison of 2 engines has led me to ask this question. i plan on running 1 nozzle since i dont believe anything less than 400hp would require 2.

current fuel injection set up is 850cc primary/secondary btw. thanks for any info guys, this is good stuff!

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

what's water meth? or do you mean plain water?

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

You know he means water/meth mix for sure

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"my hp goals are a maximum of 380whp, what would be a good recommendation with the amount of CCs for a 50/50 mix?"

it is so easy to make really big hp w turbos. and it is so easy to get into engine trouble. we see 800 rwhp rotaries, 700, 600 and 500 has become more commonplace.

all from a 2 cycle 159 cubic inch engine with warp prone apex seals. so 380 ought to be a walk in the park.

actually, 380 is 437 flywheel horses or 2.75 hp per cubic inch.

while i have used these figures before i am going to continue to trot them out:

the almighty supercharged intercooled Corvette ZR1 makes 1.68 hp/cubic inch.
the twin turbo'd Merc SL65 AMG makes 1.81 hp per cubic inch.
the stock FD at 255 makes 1.6 hp per cubic inch.

my single point here is there is an important need to RESPECT what is going on in the combustion chamber of a modded 13B. lots and lots of CCP.

it needs to be neutered. AI is the FIX.

a "modestly" modded 380 rwhp FD is making 63% more Combustion Chamber Pressure than a ZR1!

steel apex seals warp under that much CCP and lose compression.

gasoline, regardless of octane, autoignites at 420 degrees F. (VP Q16 is 419 F as per specs on their website)

methanol at 867 F
ethanol at 793 F

autoignition breaks apex seals.

so my point is, all you FD pilots zipping around w 350+ hp FDs... recognise your motor, with somewhat more fragile interior components than a piston engine, is probably up 50% CCP-wise than the ZR1.

spend some time wisely fixturing your AI system.

and, OBTW, there is no such thing as too much alcohol. in your motor.

howard

BDC

With you 100%, Howard.

B

Barry Bordes

Howard, great thread!

What forces do you think are causing the seals to warp?

The only ones I can think of would be the exhaust port and, my favorite, the spark plug bosses.

In both of these cases it is the result of extream heat of combustion.

It would be great if the design would allow for a cooling period between cycles. Then we really could call it a 2600 cc engine. But alas, we must deal with each
of it’s 654 cc chambers belching burning gases out of the exhaust port with each revolution of the eccentric shaft.


Did you catch my “Why Apex Seals Fail”? This is what I consider to be the "root cause" of rotary engine failures. Fix this and we will have a more reliable powerplant.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...errerid=101407

Barry

BDC

While I think there's merit to your suggestion that the lead plug bosses on the rotor housings are warping outwards a bit, I don't think this is causing the seals themselves to warp. I think what happens there w/ the bosses is the entirety of the seal is pushed out a bit and isn't able to seal more on either side of its respective center, therefore producing the tell-tale carbon buildup at and just above the lead plug hole.

I think the seals themselves warp due to chamber temperature as well as metallurgical composition. Factory ones don't seem to do it. It always seems to be the aftermarket ones and it happens to both 2mm and 3mm variants. That's what I've seen, at least.

My thoughts exactly.

That's a terrific read Bear' and I think you're on to something!!!

While I am thinking about it, after having noticed rotor housing after rotor housing with small, lateral cracks at the trailing plug hole, am I the only one here thinking that we as a community (generally speaking) run too hot a plug, especially a trail plug?

B

Finster

iTrader: (1)

is there any positive or negative effects on smog??

If there were positive effects then I'm sure you could lower the setting on the AI so that injection takes place at low boost, levels where the smog test takes place.

YouGotSmoked

can someone please tell me if this is a good kit or point me in the direction of a better one, thanks http://www.alcohol-injection.com/wat...age-2-305.html

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Emission tests are all in vacuum, you don't hit boost.

thewird

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

sure glad we don't have emissions testing here...

Finster

iTrader: (1)

question remains, though.

would the injectant affect tailpipe emissions?

also some kits are programmed to fuel injector duty cycles not boost

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Pump driven systems could be activated anytime you like. Could be programed or switched on before a smog test. Airflow and speed through the intake is much slower so it may try to puddle in the manifold. might not work real well at low air speeds. IDK

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Even if its by duty cycle, emission testing is done at barely and load which means very low duty cycle. If you have something injecting that low it will most likely bog the car as it won't mix properly with the air and/or will just sit in your elbow.

If your asking if it will make emissions worse, no it won't. Mixing methanol in your gas tank is actually used to trick testers into passing.

thewird

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

the AI option opens up more FD turbo choices. if you wish, you can daily drive 550 rwhp on pump gas and AI.

FD owners can be looking for 60 to 80 pounds per minute and still have engine reliability providing AI is used along w proper tuning and other subsystems. ( i haven't blown a motor in 5 years on my 500 rwhp FD.)

i thought it would enhance the value of this thread to include my method of initially zeroing in on turbo options... this is by no means the only, or most accurate, method but it is something you probably haven't seen before and may help point you in the right direction:

exducer inducer trim GT say what?

as i initially approached understanding turbos things became more, not less, confusing... some referenced turbos by inducer size, some by exducer. of course they reverse when you are talking turbine wheel V compressor.

i felt there needed to be a better way of comparing turbos.

as you may know all wheels have a minor diameter size and a major diameter. they are often in inches or millimeters. i wanted something simple to help me with sizing them.

i settled on the following:

take the minor diameter and solve for the area.
take the major diameter and solve for the area.
add together, divide by two.

you now have the average area of the wheel.

do it for the compressor (coldside/intake) , do it for the turbine (hotside/exhaust).

you now have two understandable numbers that help a great deal when you seek to compare turbos. needless to say there is a major correlation between area and airflow.

the cold side area determines the airflow potential, the hotside must deliver the power to actualise the potential.

hot area V cold area is especially valuable w the rotary. the rotary places a premium on large hot V cold wheel relationships. you want something approaching 1 to 1 areawise. (note, for example, A Spec's GT3574 variation on the GT35 theme... hot side 92% of cold side V the GT35R at 81%)

here's my list in square inches:...............cold.......................h ot....................relationship

GT2860RS (Disco Potato).....................3.549................. ..3.105.................... 87%
FC T2 (OEM).........................................3.57 9....................4.288................... 119
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................4.019................ ... 84
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................3.683................ .... 77
GT2876............................................ .....5.224.....................3.108.............. ..... 59
TO4E 57 Trim........................................5.369. ....................5.408 (Stg 5)......... 100
GT3776............................................ .....5.374.....................5.441.............. ...... 101
TO4E 60 Trim.........................................5.476 ....................5.408...................... 98
GT3076R........................................... .....5.511...................4.019................ ....... 73
Turbonetics 60-1....................................5.647........ ...........5.89....................... 104
Turbonetics T61......................................5.79..... ............... 5.89......................101
TO4B 62-1..............................................5.8 7..................... 5.89...................... 100
FD (OEM)............................................. ....5.972.................5.25.................... ..... 88
BW BullsEye S362................................... 6.291................ 5.408...................... 86
RX6 TCW77............................................. .6.356..................4.315..................... .68
Borg Warner S300SX 8375......................6.383..................5 .408.......................85
GT3582R........................................... ........6.383..................5.171.............. ........81
HTA 3582R (Forced Performance)............ 6.383.................5.171....................... 81
A Spec GT3574..........................................6. 383................5.89.........................92
GT3082R........................................... .........6.386.................smaller than GT35R..?
Precision 6262...........................................6.4 48..................5.408.....................84
Precision 6265........................................... 6.448.................5.885 (P)...............91
BW, R85, TEC300...................................... 6.667...................6.93...................... 104
HTA 3586 (Forced Performance).................6.839................ ...5.171....................76
Precision 6765............................................6. 997.................. 5.885 (P).............. 84
Precision 6768............................................6. 997..................6.652 (GTQ)........... 95
TO4Z, A Spec GT500 PT67...........................7.002.............. ....5.885 (P)...............87
Borg Warner S300SX 8875......................... 7.12....................5.408....................7 6
GT3788R........................................... ........... 7.155................. 5.694...................80
GT4088R........................................... ........... 7.167................. 6.423...................90
GT4088............................................ ............ 7.26.................... 6.633..................91
T78............................................... ............... 7.584................... 5.903................. 78
T88 33D............................................... ........ 7.58..................... 7.577................. 100
T66............................................... ............... 7.657.................. 5.894.................77
Borg Warner S300X 9179............................ 7.691................... 5.885 (P)........... 77
Borg Warner S366....................................... 7.88..................... 6.23................... 79
GT4094R........................................... ........... 8.175................... 6.423..................79
GT4294, T51R.............................................. 8.384................... 7.527..................90
T88 34D............................................... ........ 8.449................... 7.577.................. 90
MasterPower "GT42"................................... 8.658................... 6.871................. 79
T70............................................... ................ 8.725.................. 6.648.................. 76
Borg Warner S372-80.................................. 9.456................... 7.173................... 76
Borg Warner S372-83.4............................... 9.456................... 7.593................... 80
Borg Warner S372-84.................................. 9.456................... 10.298................. 109
Borg Warner S475....................................... 9.49...................... 10.292.................108
T72............................................... ................. 9.549.................. 6.648 (Q)............. 69
GT4202............................................ ............. 9.726................... 7.527.................... 77
T51R Spl............................................... ......... 9.92..................... 7.194.................... 73

i also have max flow numbers in pounds per minute ( both gross and net of efficiency) for each turbo that has a compressor map.

to derive rotary hp take the pounds per minute, multiply by 14.471 to get CFM and divide by 1.92 to get approx max rear wheel rotary hp. or take pounds per minute, multiply by 10 and divide by 1.3 to get to the same general vicinity.

for instance... the GT3582R puts a hair better than 60 pounds per minute between 2.3 and 2.9 pressure ratios. (19-28 psi).

so, 60 X 14.471 = 868 CFM/ 1.92 = 452 max rotary rwhp. if you will notice the compressor map at 60 pounds you will note the RPM lines are near vertical which means the compressor is not able to accelerate further... it is very close to stall mode. overdriven.

a turbo acts at this point as a restrictor plate ala NASCAR. no more air. so IF the compressor map is accurate that's about it. you can do the same for any of the turbos.

so take a look at the above list and pick your poison. i like 550 as a max target as above that number the engine becomes a bit in need of some reconstruction. also, if you have ever been in a 500 hp FD you will quickly realise it is about all you can hope to hook up without different transmissions and rear driveline components.

most of the numbers above should be accurate. feel free to offer any corrections. some turbos above can be fixtured w different hotside wheels. also the new deal is the billet compressor wheel which may offer additional flow per diameter due to less hub/more fins. most of this addition happens at very high pressure ratios (boost) and we are all waiting to see what happens when billet meets rotary.

trim relationships also add or detract from low rpm V higher RPM but area numbers should, i hope, be helpful.

one other note... when shopping for turbos you generally will find a hp number. the numbers are for piston engines unless specifically noted rotary. you need to divide the hp numbers by 1.3 to derive rotary hp. for instance 800 piston would be 615 rotary.


howard coleman

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Nice info, thanks Howard.

Re the 1.3 divisor, why is that?

Does the rotary require that much more air/fuel to create the same HP as a piston engine of similar size?

The number is the displacement of the motor, which is probably just a red herring.

'Similar size' is itself something of a misnomer, as the FD motor is considered 2.6L by SCCA, NASA, etc.