jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Seems to be leak free now.

The plastic nut broke, but fortunately I had some household lamp hardware in the garage, and the metal nuts were the right size for the fitting.

Silicone was applied around the base of the sensor where it protrudes from the tank, two nuts put on and tightened.

8 autox runs and 250 miles on the trailer, and no leaks.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

this thread has gotten, despite over 150 deletes, a bit lost in the minutia. of course there's nothing wrong w that...

but let's not lose sight of the bottom line. and as they say, the best advertising is happy customers.

the name of this thread is "THE FIX" if you haven't read post one. do it.

the Auxilary Injection Section has a thread entitled the "500 on Pump-AI Club" here's a recent new post:

"OK guys here is my long over due dyno sheet with tons of info on meth control.

@22 PSI achieved ;
445.7 FT-TQ @ 6098.RPM
539.3 HP @ 6759.RPM

VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikbp7xDqHeg

• AEM EMS
• AEM METH PUMP and nozzles
• All readings on DynaPack.

• We tried different nozzle sizes and the light blue graph is the Super sizes nozzle. It was too radical so we went down.

• Happy to report knock was pretty much zero volts like 0.1v was max. Power FC users can just read it as zero - 3 scale.

forgot to mention this motor has been running these levels for about 2yrs. We also noticed a different in difference meth to water ratios and quality of meth.
50/50 windshield washer was returning lower HP and torque
50/50 industrial meth and distilled usg water returned more torque and better performance under heat soak
60/40 (meth/water) same as above line in resource returned highest torque at 22lbs.

I've been with the 60/40 ratio for months and still testing.

I will be at the NJ motorsport park (thunderbolt) testing on july 25th and at summitpoint on sept 19...will hopefully be back with data logged numbers.

I also have the AEM map if anyone is interested...I will post it up soon"

/// what jumps out of this post is... "Happy to report knock was pretty much zero volts like 0.1v was max. Power FC users can just read it as zero"

500+ hp and knock is ZERO!! on 93 octane! and AI. congratulations Kwerks////

rizzxx7

iTrader: (4)

what size aem meth nozzle did you guys end up with? I'm currently using the biggest size that came with their kit which I believe is 550ml/min

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

500 is fine for water... you want more than 1000 if you plan on making 500+ ponies w meth

rizzxx7

iTrader: (4)

I'm currently using 1 bottle of heet per gallon of water, am I better of using 100% water?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

PM from 13bturbofc today....

" i tuned the car today and we made 411 whp on a stock port motor at 15psi.. then we set the 50/50 meth water to come on at 12psi and we did a 18psi run and made 450whp! and i felt the upper intake manifold and it was seriously cold to the touch!!! haha i didnt know it would do that. thats crazy! anyways, the 2600lb FC with 450whp feels absolutely nuts, it pulls so hard in 2nd and 3rd gear it makes your stomach suck back."

the AI HITS just keep comin'

hc

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Thats awesome i need to get on a dyno sometime too. I know i'm over 500 with mine too. What kind of tires is everyone running to hold the power? I have some bfg drag radials that held 15psio pretty good, but 20 on the street lights them up in 3rd gear at anything above 5k. It's a bit unnerving to have the back end sliding around at tripple digit speeds. The tires don't last long at all either.

Rotaryfreak702

This is a wonderful thread.

wolf_9782

shameless bump for a valuable topic on this forum.

i am also looking into getting a Snow Performance AI kit, its cheap and its gonna save me lots of cash in the long run! my only question however is if it will be good for road racing/auto X style of driving? i dont mind going in straight lines, but i like to diversify my spirited driving.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

water works fine road racing as you just use it as a constant and tune your base fuel map. methanol on a road course needs to be HD as it is fuel. lots of people run water successfully on road courses.

i was planning on posting to this thread re my saturday in Minneapolis dyno tuning sessions w Steve Kan.

both of the motors i built were tuned by Steve Kan and used AI meth.

a good time was had by all.

the first ran a T51r and was purposely limited to 457 Standard as it had only one 500 CC meth nozzle running on pump.

the second ran an R85 turbo and made 500 Standard. it made 200 rwhp at 4300 rpm which is excellent as most 500 hp rigs make it at 4700. the runs were wastegate spring limited to approx 20 psi. two M10 (630 CC times two) nozzles run by a Coolingmist setup.

both happy motors due to the meth AI.

dyno sheets to follow.

Seng T51r meth happy after dyno

Seng and Bruce Lee (Touturborx7 R85) work it on the rollers

the master tuner Steve Kan, hopefully not playing FreeCell... thanks Steve for doing a great job.


AI produces smiles...


hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

here are the sheets:

T51R limited due to 500 cc/min of methanol



R85 w 1260 cc/min of methanol boost limited to around 20 due to wastegate spring. notice it made 200 at 4300 rpm. most 500 hp motors do it around 4700... a street rocket.



hc

ChrisRX8PR

WTF??????

Steve Khan was in town at Modern Auto Performance and I didn't know about it???...oh great, you were in town too....Man! I am truly depressed....

FACK!!!

This blows...I would've loved to have him tune my car now that its ready with all the new stuff I did to it...

is he still in town?...doubt it...

Chris

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i had no idea about the event other than two of my motors were going to be dyno'd. While Steve is top notch you really don't have a problem re tuning... just bite the bullet and drive over to Green Bay Beyond Redline and have Luke Stubbs help you.

i will be dynoing at BR next week. let me know when you are coming and i will try to attend.

Luke is excellent... we made 507 SAE at 20 psi last session and look for a bunch more. same dyno as MAP.

howard

ChrisRX8PR

Yeah I'll see if I can make the trip. Normally and in the past I have done my own tuning without issues when it comes to max power. What I would've liked is to get a good part throttle...transition and general setup from khan. My car is not very common...its a half-bridge Renesis (the first) running in E85 and with a PT71GTQ billet turbo....not many rx-8s in the 500wp region so not many people will be willing to mess with them. I have a microtech LT-10s but it is setup weird when compared to rx-7 installs. The secondaries and primary2's(the renesis has 6 injectors) are controlled solely by the aux part of the idle map while the idle and load maps only control the primaries.... this makes it a little less intuitive but it works great...

I will be at MAP soon in the next week or two...we'll see what I can muster from it.

Thanks

Chris

wolf_9782

thanks for the response howard

ill be placing an order after i get other things settled.

BDC

I'm glad Seng's happy with his setup!

SENZA PARI

Howard, at what psi was the meth set to come on in these two motors?

Not being able to drive the car is taking its toll....:-(

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

new info...

i didn't realise it until talking w Seng (T51) yesterday but he was running a 50/50 mix of water meth rather than straight meth...

nothing wrong w it but it clearly cost him some HP.

he is installing 1260 CC nozzles (2 X M10) and will be running straight meth.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

M104-AMG posted a thread in the AI section and i thought it would be valuable to share his experience w his FJO HD AI setup.




"This (FJO AI) reliability mod really kept engine temps down while on the track, last weekend.

It was 93-F, and 85% humidity, and the car would do two (2) twenty-minute (20-mins) sessions back-to-back, and the most the water-temp would get on the track was 215-F.

After a cool-down lap, she would be running about 210-F, sometimes 200-F, with 100% distilled water.

We tried 35% methanol, and she ran too rich.

The exhaust tip is looking very clean now.

:-) neil"

here's the thread link which includes install pics:
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/fjo-sequential-setup-pics-854651/


way to go Neil

Insomniac21772

Howard, I have a question regarding the effectivness of using a water cooling injection setup in the prevention of detonation. I understand that using water A/I doesnt actually provide cooling to the intake charge rather cooling during the actual combustion process.

Now what that being said, how is this effective in preventing detonation? As I understand detonation occurs during the compression cycle of the rotor (right before spark). Since it has been stated many times in this thread that water injection only atomizes during the actual combustion process, and since detonation occurs before that I am a bit skeptical of how much it helps with detonation.

Now that I'm really thinking abou tit I guess water could raise the ignition temperature of the fuel in the combustion chamber to some degree even before it completely atomizes. People have been using water as an A/I for many years now so I'm not doubting that it helps.. but mybe it helps more with just cleaning the carbon out of the engine or sumthing.

Idk this is something that just crossed my mind, and i dont believe this exact question has been brought up yet, so if you could comment on this that would be great! thanks

BTW this thread is detrimental the the longevity of these motors and SHOULD BE stickyed RIGHT AWAY!

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

there is no question that water surpresses knock as you mention it has been used effectively for many many years.

your question really deals w the HOW it works. water is one of the most capable of all substances in ABSORBING heat. our motors are 2 cycle in that every time the combustion chamber passes the sparkplug we have a power impulse. unlike a 4 cycle engine where you have more cooling.

as the rotor exhausts the last power stroke thru the exhaust port i can assure you remnents of the hot combustiive event are swept into the new intake stroke. water immediately cools the charge.

there's literally tons of scientific papers on this which is beyond the scope of this thread.

howard

BDC

This isn't entirely true although partially correct. I'm not sure about water's ability to do this but I do know that alcohol most certainly will reduce IAT (intake air temperatures). I run a hot-air setup on my Turbo II that's just a 2.5" pipe coming out of the turbo's discharge that goes straight to the throttle body inlet (no intercooler). At just under 25psi of boost, I am injecting about ~1500cc/min of alcohol with a pair of M10gph@100psi nozzles, staggered 10" apart, located upstream. At that boost, it's removing right at 200*F of heat from the charge pipe. The measured air temps just prior to the throttle body are 99-102*F.

That's pre-ignition which is its own category of knock that has several different "kinds" like spark-induced (caused either by crossfire on plug wires, a goofed ECU, or an ECU/distributor that's manually firing the spark plug too early), auto-ignition (spontaneous combustion of the fuel in the charge due to ambient chamber heat), plug-induced (due to too hot of a plug for too hot of a load causing the plug to act like a glow plug) are a few. Detonation is more the creation of a second flame front after TDC when both excessive chamber heat and excessive fuel exist that compels the creation of a second flame front that trails the initial one created during the beginning of the power stroke. I don't think most of us RE guys legitimately hit detonation. I think we hit more of the forms of pre-ignition, instead (the most common being auto-ignition due to too much load and too little fuel octane and then the second being plug-induced). I could be mistaken, though.

Unless it's a pre-turbo setup (and there's evidence that's it much more efficacious than a post-turbo injection point), I'm not sure I disagree with you. I'm not much of a water user but I can't help but think that even if it were still in liquid form as it enters the compression stroke it would do a measured amount of good. Example: it's hotter than heck down here in Texas as it normally is in the summer time. Because I like to keep the electric bill low, I don't run the central A/C in the house at low temps. Knowing I'll be hot sometimes, I keep a water spray bottle nearby. I hit myself with it in the neck and face. Immediately it cools the skin. Specific heat? Latent heat? Something makes it work and I think the same effect happens in the chamber BTDC. I just don't know by what degree but I bet it's substantial if not remarkably high.

I think it decarbonizes too but I've got no proof of it. I'm a staunch alcohol user so the engines I've torn down were all alcoholics.

Absolutely agree with you there. I think AI is the general solution to the plague of engines blowing that's been around since these things were first taken past their factory form. It is no secret. The RE suffers from two problems: a lack of resiliency to knock and a chamber that runs much, much hotter than its piston counterpart at equal displacements. Where the modified piston street car can get away with making loads of power on pump fuels, we cannot all that easily. Our engines produce gobs of heat. We have to run much colder plugs comparatively (I'm beginning to lean towards using 10's/10.5 race plugs all around in a post-300hp setup). We have to run all sorts of heat expulsion stuff in the engine bay. We've got large oil coolers. All of this points towards the problem of heat and then along with that the engine's inability to withstand heavy amounts of knock that's induced by heat. AI however is the solution. The more that folks here in the community press towards it and experiment with it, whether it be water, water/alcohol, or straight alcohol like me, the less frequent we seem to be blowing engines as well as the more we're able to extend the virtual barriers that exist with these modified street setups that run on pump gas.

B

Insomniac21772

Thank you for clearing this up for me.

Wow with a 200 degree drop in intake temps their is really no need for an intercooler, I wonder why more people dont just put the funds they were going to spend on a nice IC into alky injection which seems like it works much better.

BDC

I can think of a couple reasons:

1) The "hot-air" thing isn't a well-experimented thing yet. There's only a handful of us (I can only think of one other person, Stylemon) that's trying this out.
2) The established norm that's been set in many of the other car communities is the front mounted air-to-air intercooler. In my view, a substantial percentage of enthusiasts out there that are modifying their cars tend to stick to the commonly held trends rather than delve more into the engineering aspects of it, let alone spend a lot of money experimenting on something that might not work.

That's my take on it.

B

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

^^ that is true. I have always been interested in the idea of ditching the intercooler also to use chemical intercooling. No pressure drop, faster boost response. The only thing I don't like about meth is always having to purchase it. If your car is drag only meth cost wouldn't be a huge factor. But road racing cars, and street cars that see alot of boost would use quite a bit of meth. With a 1500 cc/min nozzle you're looking at around 4 gallons of meth every 10 mins of full boost. I would probably use 10 gallons a week only taking the car out a couple times. Not sure how much the cost is, but over time it adds up. I bet a preturbo water injection with a post turbo meth injection would work pretty good. The flashing point of water at 20 psi is 228 degrees. Seeing as how it's preturbo it might not yet be under pressure as it enters the turbo so it could flash at the typical 212 degrees F. Any temp above the flashing point would result in a higher cooling effect per volume compared to meth. To get temps even lower one could use a smaller meth nozzle post turbo. Maybe 500cc of water preturbo and 500cc of meth post turbo. Just an idea, and one would have to experiment with the nozzle sizes, but I think it would work quite well, and use less injected volume overall, and 2/3's less meth.