Making The Case For The <Rotary> Powered FD: The Fix
08-12-11, 11:52 AM
#476
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
[QUOTE=Howard Coleman CPR;10742851]my third AI system
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
back in 2003, after doing lots of research, i decided i wanted to help out my pump gas w as much methanol as possible.
looking over the available options in 2003 i decided to go w Julio Don's Alkycontrol system. Julio had zillions of high value threads/posts on the most important AI forum on the net... TurboBuick. the Alcohol Propane and Nitrous section had over 200 PAGES of threads back in 04.
i was not disappointed. i ran two M15 nozzles, around 1300 CCs/Min and made 507 SAE rwhp at 20 psi w the Alkycontrol system.
just to make sure you don't miss the point re what 1300 CCs of meth can do for lowly pump gas...
507 X 1.15 = 583 SAE flywheel hp from 159 cubic inches or 3.66 hp per cubic inch!
other engines of note measure out comparatively:
McLaren MP4 2.55
Porsche 911 Turbo 2.15
Nissan GTR 2.09
Corvette ZR1 1.69
knock at 3.66 hp/cu inch which is an advance tell as to meltdown was under 10 at 7500-8500 rpm!
Note for new readers. Howard doubles the actual displacement. This helps for sizing a turbo or when comparing the Rotary to four-stroke engines.
Its actual displacement is 1300cc (80cu in) for the 13B
and 2000cc (120 cu in) for the 20B.
Barry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
back in 2003, after doing lots of research, i decided i wanted to help out my pump gas w as much methanol as possible.
looking over the available options in 2003 i decided to go w Julio Don's Alkycontrol system. Julio had zillions of high value threads/posts on the most important AI forum on the net... TurboBuick. the Alcohol Propane and Nitrous section had over 200 PAGES of threads back in 04.
i was not disappointed. i ran two M15 nozzles, around 1300 CCs/Min and made 507 SAE rwhp at 20 psi w the Alkycontrol system.
just to make sure you don't miss the point re what 1300 CCs of meth can do for lowly pump gas...
507 X 1.15 = 583 SAE flywheel hp from 159 cubic inches or 3.66 hp per cubic inch!
other engines of note measure out comparatively:
McLaren MP4 2.55
Porsche 911 Turbo 2.15
Nissan GTR 2.09
Corvette ZR1 1.69
knock at 3.66 hp/cu inch which is an advance tell as to meltdown was under 10 at 7500-8500 rpm!
Note for new readers. Howard doubles the actual displacement. This helps for sizing a turbo or when comparing the Rotary to four-stroke engines.
Its actual displacement is 1300cc (80cu in) for the 13B
and 2000cc (120 cu in) for the 20B.
Barry
08-13-11, 10:02 AM
#477
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Barry is correct as usual.
as many know there have been wars fought over whether it is a 2 cycle or 4 cycle and spin offs from the confusion often end up at displacement.
it is very simple.
the engine displaces 80 cubic inches or 1.3 L in the metric world.
end of story.
of course that isn't the end of the story.
there is displacement and Effective Displacement (ED) and that''s not erectile disfunction.
ED is a necessary concept when working w the rotary because it is significantly unlike it's piston counterpart in some aspects. and i am not talking about the rotors.
the most significant aspect of the rotary is the fact that every time the combustion chamber says hello to the sparkplug a power impulse is created.
all other automotive powerplants create power every other Top Dead Center (TDC) event.
in this single aspect the rotary clearly resembles the typical 2 cycle piston motor, not the 4 cycle automotive motor.
it is this every TDC power event that requires us to double the size of the motor when fitting turbos, fuel etc.
to be accurate, when referencing the rotary motors displacement it might be good to use two tags.
displacement 80/1.3 L
effective displacement 160/2.6 L
and make no mistake about it... the rotary motor functions as 160/2.6 w regard to power output, fuel consumption, air flow.
it is a fact, as per Mazda, that the rotary is significantly less efficient than a piston engine. something about the large surface areas cooling the mix as well as combustion chamber shape etc...
that's Mazda's conclusion. if you have a problem w that call Mazda.
let's look at some supportive numbers:
an 80 pound per minute turbo.
80 X 10 = 800 Piston hp
80 X 14.471 = 1157 CFM / 1.92 = 603 rw rotary hp
the rotary makes 75% of what a piston engine makes at equal airflow. this empirical evidence backs up Mazda's statements.
(it is worth noting that this does not necessarily require the rotary to take a back seat to the piston engine as it can flow more air w the proper ports. for example the 13B on methanol can make 1100 rwhp.... it just takes more air/fuel than a piston motor.)
at the 600 hp level using ED as the divisor the rotary is making 3.75 hp/cu inch! for an engine w challenged VE this is amazing and if built right it is capable of staying together longer than most might think.
btw if you use the actual displacement (80 cu in) you end up at 7.5 hp/cubic inch.
dream on.
another area to consider w regard to the fact that we have a power impulse every TDC is that we lose the every other COOLING EVENT that the piston engine possesses.
this is a big deal and another reason why AI is such an important system for longevity.
add this to the need to flow 33% more fuel and air to make the same hp as a piston engine and it is clear that the rotary is cooling challenged.
EGTs at max power piston engine 1320
EGTs at max power rotary engine 1700
of course the ramifications of the above and the FIX are the central theme of this thread.
fortunately, if you do the right things you have a happy ending.
howard
unlike the typical piston engine the rotary has a power impulse every time the combustion chamber reaches top dead center.
from a power impulse versus a piston engine this effectively doubles it's displacement.
while the rotary may not share all aspects of a 2 cycle motor from a power impulse per top dead center aspect it clearly shares the most significant similarity that of not having a cooling non-power TDC cycle.
as many know there have been wars fought over whether it is a 2 cycle or 4 cycle and spin offs from the confusion often end up at displacement.
it is very simple.
the engine displaces 80 cubic inches or 1.3 L in the metric world.
end of story.
of course that isn't the end of the story.
there is displacement and Effective Displacement (ED) and that''s not erectile disfunction.
ED is a necessary concept when working w the rotary because it is significantly unlike it's piston counterpart in some aspects. and i am not talking about the rotors.
the most significant aspect of the rotary is the fact that every time the combustion chamber says hello to the sparkplug a power impulse is created.
all other automotive powerplants create power every other Top Dead Center (TDC) event.
in this single aspect the rotary clearly resembles the typical 2 cycle piston motor, not the 4 cycle automotive motor.
it is this every TDC power event that requires us to double the size of the motor when fitting turbos, fuel etc.
to be accurate, when referencing the rotary motors displacement it might be good to use two tags.
displacement 80/1.3 L
effective displacement 160/2.6 L
and make no mistake about it... the rotary motor functions as 160/2.6 w regard to power output, fuel consumption, air flow.
it is a fact, as per Mazda, that the rotary is significantly less efficient than a piston engine. something about the large surface areas cooling the mix as well as combustion chamber shape etc...
that's Mazda's conclusion. if you have a problem w that call Mazda.
let's look at some supportive numbers:
an 80 pound per minute turbo.
80 X 10 = 800 Piston hp
80 X 14.471 = 1157 CFM / 1.92 = 603 rw rotary hp
the rotary makes 75% of what a piston engine makes at equal airflow. this empirical evidence backs up Mazda's statements.
(it is worth noting that this does not necessarily require the rotary to take a back seat to the piston engine as it can flow more air w the proper ports. for example the 13B on methanol can make 1100 rwhp.... it just takes more air/fuel than a piston motor.)
at the 600 hp level using ED as the divisor the rotary is making 3.75 hp/cu inch! for an engine w challenged VE this is amazing and if built right it is capable of staying together longer than most might think.
btw if you use the actual displacement (80 cu in) you end up at 7.5 hp/cubic inch.
dream on.
another area to consider w regard to the fact that we have a power impulse every TDC is that we lose the every other COOLING EVENT that the piston engine possesses.
this is a big deal and another reason why AI is such an important system for longevity.
add this to the need to flow 33% more fuel and air to make the same hp as a piston engine and it is clear that the rotary is cooling challenged.
EGTs at max power piston engine 1320
EGTs at max power rotary engine 1700
of course the ramifications of the above and the FIX are the central theme of this thread.
fortunately, if you do the right things you have a happy ending.
howard
unlike the typical piston engine the rotary has a power impulse every time the combustion chamber reaches top dead center.
from a power impulse versus a piston engine this effectively doubles it's displacement.
while the rotary may not share all aspects of a 2 cycle motor from a power impulse per top dead center aspect it clearly shares the most significant similarity that of not having a cooling non-power TDC cycle.
08-13-11, 11:57 AM
#479
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Barry is correct as usual.
as many know there have been wars fought over whether it is a 2 cycle or 4 cycle and spin offs from the confusion often end up at displacement.
it is very simple.
the engine displaces 80 cubic inches or 1.3 L in the metric world.
end of story.
of course that isn't the end of the story.
there is displacement and Effective Displacement (ED) and that''s not erectile disfunction.
ED is a necessary concept when working w the rotary because it is significantly unlike it's piston counterpart in some aspects. and i am not talking about the rotors.
the most significant aspect of the rotary is the fact that every time the combustion chamber says hello to the sparkplug a power impulse is created.
all other automotive powerplants create power every other Top Dead Center (TDC) event.
in this single aspect the rotary clearly resembles the typical 2 cycle piston motor, not the 4 cycle automotive motor.
it is this every TDC power event that requires us to double the size of the motor when fitting turbos, fuel etc.
to be accurate, when referencing the rotary motors displacement it might be good to use two tags.
displacement 80/1.3 L
effective displacement 160/2.6 L
and make no mistake about it... the rotary motor functions as 160/2.6 w regard to power output, fuel consumption, air flow.
it is a fact, as per Mazda, that the rotary is significantly less efficient than a piston engine. something about the large surface areas cooling the mix as well as combustion chamber shape etc...
that's Mazda's conclusion. if you have a problem w that call Mazda.
let's look at some supportive numbers:
an 80 pound per minute turbo.
80 X 10 = 800 Piston hp
80 X 14.471 = 1157 CFM / 1.92 = 603 rw rotary hp
the rotary makes 75% of what a piston engine makes at equal airflow. this empirical evidence backs up Mazda's statements.
(it is worth noting that this does not necessarily require the rotary to take a back seat to the piston engine as it can flow more air w the proper ports. for example the 13B on methanol can make 1100 rwhp.... it just takes more air/fuel than a piston motor.)
at the 600 hp level using ED as the divisor the rotary is making 3.75 hp/cu inch! for an engine w challenged VE this is amazing and if built right it is capable of staying together longer than most might think.
btw if you use the actual displacement (80 cu in) you end up at 7.5 hp/cubic inch.
dream on.
another area to consider w regard to the fact that we have a power impulse every TDC is that we lose the every other COOLING EVENT that the piston engine possesses.
this is a big deal and another reason why AI is such an important system for longevity.
add this to the need to flow 33% more fuel and air to make the same hp as a piston engine and it is clear that the rotary is cooling challenged.
EGTs at max power piston engine 1320
EGTs at max power rotary engine 1700
of course the ramifications of the above and the FIX are the central theme of this thread.
fortunately, if you do the right things you have a happy ending.
howard
unlike the typical piston engine the rotary has a power impulse every time the combustion chamber reaches top dead center.
from a power impulse versus a piston engine this effectively doubles it's displacement.
while the rotary may not share all aspects of a 2 cycle motor from a power impulse per top dead center aspect it clearly shares the most significant similarity that of not having a cooling non-power TDC cycle.
as many know there have been wars fought over whether it is a 2 cycle or 4 cycle and spin offs from the confusion often end up at displacement.
it is very simple.
the engine displaces 80 cubic inches or 1.3 L in the metric world.
end of story.
of course that isn't the end of the story.
there is displacement and Effective Displacement (ED) and that''s not erectile disfunction.
ED is a necessary concept when working w the rotary because it is significantly unlike it's piston counterpart in some aspects. and i am not talking about the rotors.
the most significant aspect of the rotary is the fact that every time the combustion chamber says hello to the sparkplug a power impulse is created.
all other automotive powerplants create power every other Top Dead Center (TDC) event.
in this single aspect the rotary clearly resembles the typical 2 cycle piston motor, not the 4 cycle automotive motor.
it is this every TDC power event that requires us to double the size of the motor when fitting turbos, fuel etc.
to be accurate, when referencing the rotary motors displacement it might be good to use two tags.
displacement 80/1.3 L
effective displacement 160/2.6 L
and make no mistake about it... the rotary motor functions as 160/2.6 w regard to power output, fuel consumption, air flow.
it is a fact, as per Mazda, that the rotary is significantly less efficient than a piston engine. something about the large surface areas cooling the mix as well as combustion chamber shape etc...
that's Mazda's conclusion. if you have a problem w that call Mazda.
let's look at some supportive numbers:
an 80 pound per minute turbo.
80 X 10 = 800 Piston hp
80 X 14.471 = 1157 CFM / 1.92 = 603 rw rotary hp
the rotary makes 75% of what a piston engine makes at equal airflow. this empirical evidence backs up Mazda's statements.
(it is worth noting that this does not necessarily require the rotary to take a back seat to the piston engine as it can flow more air w the proper ports. for example the 13B on methanol can make 1100 rwhp.... it just takes more air/fuel than a piston motor.)
at the 600 hp level using ED as the divisor the rotary is making 3.75 hp/cu inch! for an engine w challenged VE this is amazing and if built right it is capable of staying together longer than most might think.
btw if you use the actual displacement (80 cu in) you end up at 7.5 hp/cubic inch.
dream on.
another area to consider w regard to the fact that we have a power impulse every TDC is that we lose the every other COOLING EVENT that the piston engine possesses.
this is a big deal and another reason why AI is such an important system for longevity.
add this to the need to flow 33% more fuel and air to make the same hp as a piston engine and it is clear that the rotary is cooling challenged.
EGTs at max power piston engine 1320
EGTs at max power rotary engine 1700
of course the ramifications of the above and the FIX are the central theme of this thread.
fortunately, if you do the right things you have a happy ending.
howard
unlike the typical piston engine the rotary has a power impulse every time the combustion chamber reaches top dead center.
from a power impulse versus a piston engine this effectively doubles it's displacement.
while the rotary may not share all aspects of a 2 cycle motor from a power impulse per top dead center aspect it clearly shares the most significant similarity that of not having a cooling non-power TDC cycle.
You say your engines put out 3.75 hp/cu inch.
I say mine put out 7.5 hp/cubic inch. (the tease)
The definition of displacement… by Webster – c : the volume displaced by a piston (as in a pump or engine) in a single stroke.
You see if I use your figures for displacement then with 1000 psi in-chamber pressure (at 12 lbs. boost) we would net 1000HP.
If we use the actual displacement of 80 cu.in., then we net a more realistic 500HP.
I am happy with your descriptions including: breathes-like, acts-like, flows-like, but for actual displacement it would cause less confusion if we used the universally accepted scientifically defined amount.
Thanks for being so understanding with my pet peeve. And sorry for the thread-jacking.
Great thread as usual,
Barry
08-13-11, 12:51 PM
#480
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"why not simply make the swap over to E85?"
most of my daily driving is on the primaries so most of my fuel consumed is gas. there are few E85 outlets in Wisconsin so it would make life difficult. Meth at $3 gallon is easy for me to find. it is also superior to ethanol as to cooling. of course both eth and meth are vastly superior in almost all aspects to gasoline.
i do think that E85 for those that can readily obtain it and properly fixture it is a significant uptick fuelwise V gas
most of my daily driving is on the primaries so most of my fuel consumed is gas. there are few E85 outlets in Wisconsin so it would make life difficult. Meth at $3 gallon is easy for me to find. it is also superior to ethanol as to cooling. of course both eth and meth are vastly superior in almost all aspects to gasoline.
i do think that E85 for those that can readily obtain it and properly fixture it is a significant uptick fuelwise V gas
08-13-11, 03:53 PM
#481
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
the hardware arrived today. i am impressed w how small everything is. small is good. here's a comparo. an old style Bosch 1600 injector and the newer EV14 in the 1000 delivery size.
the other 2 smaller new style are also 1000 cc but are "short" /33 mm between O rings. they ought to fit very nicely on my elbow.
i swapped in the secondaries a few minutes ago and hope to go for a drive tomorrow. i will run the car up to Beyond Redline next week to have the meth injectors fixtured.
the other 2 smaller new style are also 1000 cc but are "short" /33 mm between O rings. they ought to fit very nicely on my elbow.
i swapped in the secondaries a few minutes ago and hope to go for a drive tomorrow. i will run the car up to Beyond Redline next week to have the meth injectors fixtured.
10-30-11, 07:51 PM
#484
honestly i've been leaning more towards straight water versus even 50% methanol mixed for the past few years. i feel tuning AI with methanol creates risk, because the methanol has to be tuned with the maps and is inaccurate through a nozzle versus the more accurate injection system.
if you run varying amounts of water into the engine there are no adverse effects(unless you start losing massive amounts while creating overly high boost levels), if you start losing methanol. well, that's it. game over.
sure you don't need as stout of an ignition system with alcohol but water is nearly free and available almost everywhere and it works.
what i do want to know though is if it has been confirmed that pre-turbo water injection has any real benefits over pre-throttle body injection. in the past there have been a few ego heads that made huge claims but i felt it hard to believe anything they said. i have not tested switching locations yet, figure someone has already tried with dyno sheets to prove either way. the argument was that you could effectively squeeze more power from smaller frame turbos with pre-turbo injection, which i still find it hard to believe, as was posted in another thread where someone claimed 428whp from a T04B @20psi with pre-turbo injection. that is almost an unrealistic figure from that small turbo as it stands, almost record holding for the dinky thing.
if you run varying amounts of water into the engine there are no adverse effects(unless you start losing massive amounts while creating overly high boost levels), if you start losing methanol. well, that's it. game over.
sure you don't need as stout of an ignition system with alcohol but water is nearly free and available almost everywhere and it works.
what i do want to know though is if it has been confirmed that pre-turbo water injection has any real benefits over pre-throttle body injection. in the past there have been a few ego heads that made huge claims but i felt it hard to believe anything they said. i have not tested switching locations yet, figure someone has already tried with dyno sheets to prove either way. the argument was that you could effectively squeeze more power from smaller frame turbos with pre-turbo injection, which i still find it hard to believe, as was posted in another thread where someone claimed 428whp from a T04B @20psi with pre-turbo injection. that is almost an unrealistic figure from that small turbo as it stands, almost record holding for the dinky thing.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-30-11 at 07:59 PM.
11-21-11, 03:57 AM
#486
Does anyone have experience with using Megasquirt and this HD AI system? I looking to have the most simple AI and EFI system to make the car easy to work on. It will be an S5 powered FC high 300's whp drift car.
I know megasquirt has a 'water/meth injection' option but not sure if its the same system...
Also correct me if im wrong. If im going for high 300whp numbers with a GT35 will this will be a good setup..
2x 1300cc secondarys
2x 850cc primarys
2x 450cc AI injectors with 100% meth...
I know megasquirt has a 'water/meth injection' option but not sure if its the same system...
Also correct me if im wrong. If im going for high 300whp numbers with a GT35 will this will be a good setup..
2x 1300cc secondarys
2x 850cc primarys
2x 450cc AI injectors with 100% meth...
11-21-11, 04:21 AM
#487
Does anyone have experience with using Megasquirt and this HD AI system? I looking to have the most simple AI and EFI system to make the car easy to work on. It will be an S5 powered FC high 300's whp drift car.
I know megasquirt has a 'water/meth injection' option but not sure if its the same system...
Also correct me if im wrong. If im going for high 300whp numbers with a GT35 will this will be a good setup..
2x 1300cc secondarys
2x 850cc primarys
2x 450cc AI injectors with 100% meth...
I know megasquirt has a 'water/meth injection' option but not sure if its the same system...
Also correct me if im wrong. If im going for high 300whp numbers with a GT35 will this will be a good setup..
2x 1300cc secondarys
2x 850cc primarys
2x 450cc AI injectors with 100% meth...
10-30-13, 12:56 PM
#489
I use the twins , and AI it cools the motor alot vs turning off my AI or when I run out of it. there is a significant difference in temps . so even if you do run the twins I would definitely , no SPECIALLY if you run the twins because of their heat retention i would run AI
01-10-14, 04:07 PM
#490
Drive to Live
Join Date: Mar 2004
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bumping this thread not just for great justice, but for any fellow FD owners who have yet to discover this gem of a thread. running methanol A.I. with an alky control unit has saved me gobs of cash. no rebuild needed while thrashing my car since 2010. no break downs, no engine trouble. just your standard wear and tear of gaskets etc and general maintenance needed for my FD 
01-10-14, 04:23 PM
#491
BNR's, SMIC and a target of 17psi. I've been very careful, methodical and progressive about how I tune. Despite this I've made mistakes. I recall seeing 16psi and 13.9:1 in my logs. It's likely H2O injection that has saved my 20 year old original engine.
I'm typically near (above or below) 11 depending on RPM and boost but it's a good feeling to have the water as a safety net. I can imagine what's possible if you exploit it rather than tune conservatively.
I'm typically near (above or below) 11 depending on RPM and boost but it's a good feeling to have the water as a safety net. I can imagine what's possible if you exploit it rather than tune conservatively.
01-10-14, 07:24 PM
#492
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
update:
since i converted (during 2012) to a more capable ECU i decided to trick things up a bit for 2013. AI would be delivered with two 1000 CC Bosch EV14 fuel injectors. one preturbo and one in the Greddy elbow.
i decided to use a 25% water 75% meth ratio.
i had previously run my AI system for a couple of years w fuel injectors piggy backed off the secondary injectors w my Power FC.
the setup worked well but i partially lost a couple of engines on the dyno due to apparently some sort of chemical reaction between the 3000 CC of meth and the pumpgas. (3000 rather than 2000 as the injectors were being driven at 115 psi). the injectors did work fine as to delivery.
during 2013 after a number of 3rd gear pulls i was getting knock which did not compute.
i finally found the two (new) injectors were plugged! the 25% water did me in. injectors can function pretty well w meth, i am here to tell you they do not work w water.
i had read the Injector Dynamics Tech papers on water so i can't say i wasn't warned. i was just surprised how quickly they tanked.
summer goes quickly in Wisconsin... i went back to simple. i called my old friend Julio Don at Alkycontrol and am back where i started in 2004. one M15 and one M10 nozzle in the elbow. around 1200 ccs... water/meth 50/50. simple... it works.
i did run the Texas Mile on Oct 2013. since it is approx 30 seconds w 20 of them in fifth gear and through the lights around 8400 i switched to E85. Alcohol is magic whether ethanol or methanol.
i do have a Flex Fuel Sensor (FFS) in my car and have maps for both gas and E85. the FFS tells the computer how much (if any) ethanol is in the mix and the ViPec V88 interpolates between the maps.
i will run gas on the street and E85 at the track.
i do run the AI w both fuels.
i am happy that AI has gained acceptance over the years and while "everybody knows you can save 15% on car insurance" it would be good to have the thread sticky'd for new arrivals.
as OPer, i am not going to do it.
and "thank you" to all for your thank yous.
howard
since i converted (during 2012) to a more capable ECU i decided to trick things up a bit for 2013. AI would be delivered with two 1000 CC Bosch EV14 fuel injectors. one preturbo and one in the Greddy elbow.
i decided to use a 25% water 75% meth ratio.
i had previously run my AI system for a couple of years w fuel injectors piggy backed off the secondary injectors w my Power FC.
the setup worked well but i partially lost a couple of engines on the dyno due to apparently some sort of chemical reaction between the 3000 CC of meth and the pumpgas. (3000 rather than 2000 as the injectors were being driven at 115 psi). the injectors did work fine as to delivery.
during 2013 after a number of 3rd gear pulls i was getting knock which did not compute.
i finally found the two (new) injectors were plugged! the 25% water did me in. injectors can function pretty well w meth, i am here to tell you they do not work w water.
i had read the Injector Dynamics Tech papers on water so i can't say i wasn't warned. i was just surprised how quickly they tanked.
summer goes quickly in Wisconsin... i went back to simple. i called my old friend Julio Don at Alkycontrol and am back where i started in 2004. one M15 and one M10 nozzle in the elbow. around 1200 ccs... water/meth 50/50. simple... it works.
i did run the Texas Mile on Oct 2013. since it is approx 30 seconds w 20 of them in fifth gear and through the lights around 8400 i switched to E85. Alcohol is magic whether ethanol or methanol.
i do have a Flex Fuel Sensor (FFS) in my car and have maps for both gas and E85. the FFS tells the computer how much (if any) ethanol is in the mix and the ViPec V88 interpolates between the maps.
i will run gas on the street and E85 at the track.
i do run the AI w both fuels.
i am happy that AI has gained acceptance over the years and while "everybody knows you can save 15% on car insurance" it would be good to have the thread sticky'd for new arrivals.
as OPer, i am not going to do it.
and "thank you" to all for your thank yous.
howard
01-11-14, 08:52 AM
#496
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"Why use AI when running E85? i thought E85 was to replace the need if AI making it simpler."
a fair question and Tem120 has the correct answer.
"AI cools the charged air so its already colder when it gets to the engine."
given i am running the Texas Mile i wanted all the cooling i could get. my guess is i would have been fine w E85 alone but i am finer w both.
our OE intake air temperature sensors work well for the stock application but mask what is really going on as we get in to boost. especially as we raise power levels w a single turbo.
after looking at a log from a 20 psi dyno run and seeing nothing (!!!!!) but 27 C i decided i wanted to actually get a real reading on intake air temps (IAT).
the solution was easy and not particularly expensive.... Type K Thermocouples. we often use them to measure EGTs.
they are accurate to the mS and to a F degree! i already was using two of them for my EGTs.
i located one in the pipe between the turbo and intercooler and another in the stock IAT position.
here's a pic that shows the thermocouple at the turbo/intercooler location.
after a few dyno runs i was actually looking at what was happening temperature-wise.
the logs were done on a dyno w my GT4094r at around the 575 (max) power level w E85 last Oct 13. the first log is 2nd gear thru part of fifth gear to 161 mph. the bottom window ANV11 is the temp coming out of the turbo and the ANV10 plot is at the stock IAT location.
IAT from the turbo topped out at 400 F! boost was set a bit lower (around 22) for second and third for traction. IAT topped out into the motor around 200F. a combo of the intercooler. which is normally good for 130 degrees and the water meth took 200 degrees out of the charge air. 1200 CC of AI at a 50/50 mix of water meth lowered IAT 70 degrees as well as providing in chamber advantages.
general assumptions are for around 300 F out of the turbo but here are the real numbers. do keep in mind this is at around 22-26 psi w a Large turbo... probably around 77 pounds of air.
i believe the temp from running my Borg Warner mid size (S300 63) were around 330 F.
while the IAT is high knock in my motor is close to non-existent thanks to the combo of mixtures.
here's another snapshot... this is at 205 mph in fifth gear at 8600 on the dyno. the IAT spike was caused by a very slight modulation of the throttle. again we are looking at 400 and 185. the throttle modulation just before top speed caused a spike to 230. knock thru all this was 5-10.
i can see increased temps in a road racing app as the throttle is modulated lots...
perhaps the general takeaway from this is that turbos create a lot of heat and a really good intercooler (Pettit CoolCharge is my fav) is very important as is AI. do not lose sight of the fact that AI works much of it's wonder in the combustion chamber as evidenced by the fact that my 80 cubic inch 1.3 liter motor is making 575 rwhp (and that's SAE. it would be 590 STD) with virtually no knock.
as to the speed... sure the dyno doesn't replicate the real thing (aero resistance etc) but i did run 160 plus at Texas in 3/8th of a mile and the motor has exactly the same compression as before the event. i will be back in October this year to try to do the 200.
howard
a fair question and Tem120 has the correct answer.
"AI cools the charged air so its already colder when it gets to the engine."
given i am running the Texas Mile i wanted all the cooling i could get. my guess is i would have been fine w E85 alone but i am finer w both.
our OE intake air temperature sensors work well for the stock application but mask what is really going on as we get in to boost. especially as we raise power levels w a single turbo.
after looking at a log from a 20 psi dyno run and seeing nothing (!!!!!) but 27 C i decided i wanted to actually get a real reading on intake air temps (IAT).
the solution was easy and not particularly expensive.... Type K Thermocouples. we often use them to measure EGTs.
they are accurate to the mS and to a F degree! i already was using two of them for my EGTs.
i located one in the pipe between the turbo and intercooler and another in the stock IAT position.
here's a pic that shows the thermocouple at the turbo/intercooler location.
after a few dyno runs i was actually looking at what was happening temperature-wise.
the logs were done on a dyno w my GT4094r at around the 575 (max) power level w E85 last Oct 13. the first log is 2nd gear thru part of fifth gear to 161 mph. the bottom window ANV11 is the temp coming out of the turbo and the ANV10 plot is at the stock IAT location.
IAT from the turbo topped out at 400 F! boost was set a bit lower (around 22) for second and third for traction. IAT topped out into the motor around 200F. a combo of the intercooler. which is normally good for 130 degrees and the water meth took 200 degrees out of the charge air. 1200 CC of AI at a 50/50 mix of water meth lowered IAT 70 degrees as well as providing in chamber advantages.
general assumptions are for around 300 F out of the turbo but here are the real numbers. do keep in mind this is at around 22-26 psi w a Large turbo... probably around 77 pounds of air.
i believe the temp from running my Borg Warner mid size (S300 63) were around 330 F.
while the IAT is high knock in my motor is close to non-existent thanks to the combo of mixtures.
here's another snapshot... this is at 205 mph in fifth gear at 8600 on the dyno. the IAT spike was caused by a very slight modulation of the throttle. again we are looking at 400 and 185. the throttle modulation just before top speed caused a spike to 230. knock thru all this was 5-10.
i can see increased temps in a road racing app as the throttle is modulated lots...
perhaps the general takeaway from this is that turbos create a lot of heat and a really good intercooler (Pettit CoolCharge is my fav) is very important as is AI. do not lose sight of the fact that AI works much of it's wonder in the combustion chamber as evidenced by the fact that my 80 cubic inch 1.3 liter motor is making 575 rwhp (and that's SAE. it would be 590 STD) with virtually no knock.
as to the speed... sure the dyno doesn't replicate the real thing (aero resistance etc) but i did run 160 plus at Texas in 3/8th of a mile and the motor has exactly the same compression as before the event. i will be back in October this year to try to do the 200.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-21-14 at 09:13 AM.
01-15-14, 11:39 AM
#497
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Hi Howard, those knock numbers are so low are they real "knocks" or just back ground noise? And as I recall, you said you were using your Power FC to control the injectors for your M/W injection. Is that correct?
01-20-14, 09:33 PM
#498
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I hate to ask but can preface this question with this fact - I have read every post on this thread from the first one I also email myself links with individual posts when the information is damn good.
Like most of the older threads on this forum that I have read I worry about the applications of what was once cutting edge (threads from 2008) on the car that I just purchased. Example was the Pettit Racing Coilovers.
So that being said I would like to post this question to help myself and possibly any other newcomer the RX7s.
I read this with the goal of running straight water as a preventative failure measure. I don’t want to mix with meth to make more power. I can’t tell you what my car makes but it is enough.
So with that is there a kit that you would suggest for someone that is not looking for the dyno or drag setup? I drive mine on the street and plan to do a track day or two with it.
I have looked at Richard’s (Aquamist) account and see that he hasn’t been on since August of last year. After reading about all of the different setups it seemed his company’s was one of the go to brands for someone that wanted HD with water feed modulation.
Howard I am glad to see you are still working on improving your setup. I have posted back and forth with JKStill on your suspension thread and we might have found a new torch to carry on the DD/track setup. (I am also carrying your advice over to the setup of the suspension of our 1995 240sx).
Thanks again for all of your advice!
-Stanley
I also email myself links with individual posts when the information is damn good.Like most of the older threads on this forum that I have read I worry about the applications of what was once cutting edge (threads from 2008) on the car that I just purchased. Example was the Pettit Racing Coilovers.
So that being said I would like to post this question to help myself and possibly any other newcomer the RX7s.
I read this with the goal of running straight water as a preventative failure measure. I don’t want to mix with meth to make more power. I can’t tell you what my car makes but it is enough.
So with that is there a kit that you would suggest for someone that is not looking for the dyno or drag setup? I drive mine on the street and plan to do a track day or two with it.
I have looked at Richard’s (Aquamist) account and see that he hasn’t been on since August of last year. After reading about all of the different setups it seemed his company’s was one of the go to brands for someone that wanted HD with water feed modulation.
Howard I am glad to see you are still working on improving your setup. I have posted back and forth with JKStill on your suspension thread and we might have found a new torch to carry on the DD/track setup. (I am also carrying your advice over to the setup of the suspension of our 1995 240sx).
Thanks again for all of your advice!
-Stanley
01-21-14, 09:25 AM
#499
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"knock numbers are so low are they real "knocks" or just back ground noise? And as I recall, you said you were using your Power FC to control the injectors for your M/W injection. Is that correct?"
good question on whether it is knock or not. no knock registered on the Link Amplified Knock Headphones...
i did run my AI thru fuel injectors for a couple of years. they were wired in parallel w the secondaries when i ran my Power FC. i did run an FJO Peak and Hold driver to take the strain off the Power FC. the injectors worked perfectly w 100% meth. as some may remember when i ran a combo of water and meth in early 2013 i encountered plugged AI fuel injectors. my advice is never let water anywhere near fuel injectors.
"goal of running straight water as a preventative failure measure."
congratulations on keeping it simple and water will do it for you. there are a number of offerings on the market that i like. i have used lots of Coolingmist products and recommend them. they have a good website and a wide variety of options that all are simple. David Hill, the owner, used to be an active member on our board and had an FD. if i were considering AI i would give him a call and ask for his advice.
i also recommend Snow's product line.
howard
good question on whether it is knock or not. no knock registered on the Link Amplified Knock Headphones...
i did run my AI thru fuel injectors for a couple of years. they were wired in parallel w the secondaries when i ran my Power FC. i did run an FJO Peak and Hold driver to take the strain off the Power FC. the injectors worked perfectly w 100% meth. as some may remember when i ran a combo of water and meth in early 2013 i encountered plugged AI fuel injectors. my advice is never let water anywhere near fuel injectors.
"goal of running straight water as a preventative failure measure."
congratulations on keeping it simple and water will do it for you. there are a number of offerings on the market that i like. i have used lots of Coolingmist products and recommend them. they have a good website and a wide variety of options that all are simple. David Hill, the owner, used to be an active member on our board and had an FD. if i were considering AI i would give him a call and ask for his advice.
i also recommend Snow's product line.
howard
