Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

I've heard some people using water filters to filter their own water. Probably easier then bringing gallon jugs home all the time

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

Well I'm not planning on shooting quite as high as you or Howard at the moment. I ordered the FJO kit the same day they sent that email, and I'm thinking about going with the wideband and boost controller too so I can tie them all together. For now I'll just be running one injector and not tuning too high, probably stay around 20psi, maybe 25, at least for now. If I choose to go 30psi I'd get a second injector and put some more into this setup. The main reason I was thinking about using the reservoir was to save room, try to keep everything in the engine bay, keep the hoses as short as possible (and not exposed to the road as much as possible), stuff like that. And I wasn't planning on injecting a whole lot at first anyway, so I didn't think too much into the size of the tank just yet. Maybe I'll look for something to put in place of the spare tire. The main reason I got the FJO system though was to run it the same as the fuel injectors, instead of MAP and the rest...that and being able to tie into the wideband and boost controller, if I get those. I already have the FJO injector driver and it's been good to me so far.

And on Home Depot...I've been there so many times for stuff for the car, it almost seems to me like more of a car place than for the home haha. Actually I don't think I've EVER been there or Lowe's for anything but the car, HAHA.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I guess that's more reason to use a water/meth mix then. If I'm gonna be paying for it, I might as well get a mix rather than just water.

NV02

iTrader: (3)

This thread has put the final piece of the puzzle together for me. Thanks to everyone for such great information. I have a question in regards to the cleaning potential of a water/meth mix. Given that I want to go with a W/I setup and occasionally add some meth to give the insides a good scrubbing, what would be a good percentage? Kind of like filling up with hi-test and giving it an Italian tune up. Thanks,

Dave...

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

From reading Howard's threads, I get the impression that water will clean the engine also. Water will cool the combustion chamber more than meth, but meth will cool the intake care (MUCH more than water) and you can tune up more efficiently with meth than water. Basically using meth to supplement the fuel, and you can adjust timing and cut back a little on fuel.

I've never heard the term "Italian tune-up" though, haha.

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

I use the washer tank for my water injection. There are two nice areas on the tank to plumb to and like you I am always trying to reduce the space I use in the car. The tank holds 1/2 gallon which is the same size that came with the AEM kit.

The level sensor fit right on the back side and the water pickup was mounted at the very bottom. I left the stock washer pump in place and just put a cap on its nipple.

Dan

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I can appreciate that the washer tank is not big enough for many users, and for serious meth mix AI it's simply too cheesy.

But for plain water injection I cannot see any problem with the washer tank. It's located well, fits in the stock engine bay, is cheap, and it works. You can always plug the hole and install a separate reservoir if the washer tank isn't convenient enough.

Dave

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

Cool thanks! I'll check that out when I get back.

I guess I need to decide just which way I'm going to go with this first.


Sorry for hijacking, but I hope others find this information useful too.

BDC

I don't think anybody knows but from my own experience, from being a heavy alcohol user, it has a massive de-carboning effect everywhere: on the rotors, the runners of the manifolds, everywhere. Last time I tore my motor down a couple yrs ago, there was zero carbon anywhere.

B

rizzxx7

iTrader: (4)

I just spent more money because of this thread, will it ever end? bought the aem kit last week and maybe I'll get a chance to hook it up this sunday

wolf_9782

look on the bright side tho, you'll be saving money on engine rebuilds

rizzxx7

iTrader: (4)

yeah, and more power!!!

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

I wasn't going to say anything Brian, but normally you admit this kind of thing at AA, not on the RX-7 forum LOL.

Seriously though, this is the kind of stuff I love to hear. Howard had said it before too, but it never gets old hearing all the benefits. Makes you wonder why Mazda didn't put it on the cars from the factory...oh, probably cutting cost haha.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Or have you ever heard of a car which came with a separate tank for methanol from the factory :P

thewird

Richard L

From what I have learnt from this forum, any form of heat reduction is good for the rotary. It doesn't have to be a "all sing, all dancing" system to achieve that. Unless of course you are pushing for more power.

Richard L

In 1992, 5000 production Ford Escort Cosworths came with a soft water tank for water injection usage. Previous to this car, 2500 production Ford Sierras also came with a water tank.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

this thread is entitled: "The FIX"

given:

stock FD 255 flywheel hp/159 cubic inches = 1.60 hp per cubic inch.

moderate range tune FD 375 RWHP = 2.71 hp per cubic inch

Blue Devil Supercharged Intercooled $115,000 Corvette = 1.69 hp per cubic inch

a 375 hp FD makes 59% more hp per cubic inch than the "Blue Devil!"

it is all about Combustion Chamber Pressure (CCP) and this is why out turbo'd rotaries fail... because they are in much higher state of tune than we realise.

everything has to be just right.

"everything" needs to include an AI system.

O K, so if you have read this thread you have heard it before.

THIS JUST IN:

from 1942.

The Airforce did a study on using water to increase hp in a number of the WW2 aircraft. the report is highly technical but i did a bit of translating and the numbers are breathtaking.

WW2 started out with octane levels below 100 and ended w 117 octane Avgas.

the study starts w the concept of using approx 106 octane and combining it w water and raising the boost. the problem was that the 100 octane produced so much power when combined w water and increased boost that they were unable to measure it so the study was done w 80 octane!

here are some of the numbers. i will decipher a bit at the end.

WATER(cc)__ AFR____BOOST ___TEMP BETWEEN VALVES___TIMING AT PEAK CCP______ CCP

0..................13.8.........9.77.............. ........332....................................20. .......................360
1803............13.8........15.47................. ....318....................................20..... ...................640
3606............14.3........20.38................. ....272....................................20..... ...................870
5409............14.3........24.4.................. .....240....................................23.... ...................1030

0..................13.8........25.7............... ........439....................................20. ......................1080

the first 5 lines are all 80 octane as the test instruments couldn't measure the increases w 100 octane and water.

the numbers are for a maxed out run to knock and then backed off 7%. static compression of the test motor 7 to 1.

the first run is max on 80 octane w no water. max achieved boost was just under 10 psi. interior cylinder head temperature, a great proxy for interior engine heat was 332F. power achieved relates directly to the 360 CCP figure.

introduce water and the boost can be raised... to 15.47 psi (remember this is on 80 octane gas). note: while power skyrocketed 36% interior engine heat declined! as additional water is added boost can be raised to 24 psi on 80 octane. note interior temperature down to 240 degrees and power up to 1030!

the last line is no water and 106 octane gasoline. note boost can be raised to where it was on max water and power is similar but note interior engine heat is 439 vs 240! (AI superior to racegas)

to directly quote the first conclusions of the study:

1. Water injection allowed a fuel to be operated above its normal maximum permissable performance level.

2. Water injection allowed a fuel to be operated at a higher indicated mean effective pressure (CCP).

the combination of higher octane AND water/alcohol is profound w regard to horsepower and engine longevity.

the ubiquitous Pratt & Whitney R-2800 started out around 2000 hp when it was debuted in 1939. that was on less than 100 octane w no water/alcohol. a combination of 117 octane Avgas and water alcohol allowed the engine to run at 150 inches of mercury boost level (up from 49) and make 3800 hp... while inlet air temperatures dropped from 350 F to 100. (thanks to the 50% alcohol). Pratt & Whitney ran the R2800 for 100 hours straight at full boost in tests.

they were pretty smart in 1940.

and how smart are you in 2009 with your 2.7 hp per cubic inch FD?

howard coleman

thanks RiceRacing for finding/hosting the valuable paper; http://www.riceracing.com.au/resourc...rinjection.pdf

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Some FC's came with the subzero starting option, which was a small tank on the firewall for pure coolant.

RenoCYM

What would running on only 2-stroke oil do for emissions and the cats? Would I not leave a trail of blue smoke like a Mercury Marine? Would I pass the sniffer emission test?

HDP

iTrader: (2)

From the bottom of page 8 to mid-page 11...

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i find it weird that nowhere in the Frank Walker article during the march of the Pratt & Whitney 2800 from 2000 hp to 3800 hp is it disclosed that the engine started w much less than 100 octane in 1939 and ended with 117 octane in 1945.

this is a huge factor as was the role of alcohol. alcohol is portrayed in the story as being added as an antifreeze inhibitor. while true, the 50% alcohol no doubt had a significant role in making hp and reliability.

'not to diminish frank Walker's accomplishments but the story, while very interesting, is incomplete factually.

howard

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Not to take anything away from alcohol, it does have significant cooling abilities to the air temps, but those planes would be flying so high that keeping the air temps down probably wasn't too much of an issue. I was also reading some articles on WI in the WW planes and the meth used for antifreeze was reduced and even eliminated on lower altitude missions. Other WI systems were used only for take off in certain aircrafts. It is really quite impressive the crude technology they had at the time and how well they made it work. I found a website that had a table/graph that listed and compared the effects of water, methanol, 50/50, and straight gasoline at different AFR's (actually FAR) and boost levels. If i can find it again i'll post it up.

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Okay I found the Graphs. They are from a study NACA (previous name for NASA) did on water injection awhile ago.

x axis = Fuel/Air ratio (I took the liberty of converting it to AIR/FUEL in red. EXAMPLE:.08 =12.5:1)
y axis = Break Mean Effective Pressure (basically torque or power output)

Each colored line represents a different mixture tested:

Green = 70/30 Methanol/Water
Blue = Water only
Red = No Aux injection used

They injected 60% as much of the Aux Injection as they did fuel. The engine is fed pre-compressed air from a controlled source. The coolant temp is fixed, the compression ratio is 7:1, The different mixtures were injected just prior to the inlet valve. The first graph is with a controlled 250* F inlet temperature similar to a non intercooled engine, the second graph has an inlet temperature of 150* F which would be more like an intercooled engine.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Hey Howard, I was wondering where your picking up your TPS signal with the FJO.

thewird

////answered via PM but just for the records.... use the VTA1 full range. 3G on the ECU, a B/G wire at the TPS.////

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

2009 update...

2009 promises to be an exciting AI year for many of us. i have a number of projects most of which are new stuff to me...

FJO METH

looking for 630 rwhp and no knock. it appears i finally have what i want together for 09. i built a killer engine w advanced ports and carry over my FJO HD AI system running a Bosch pump w a return line. 1400 CC/Min of meth. i fired my motor last week and hope to be on the dyno within 10 days.

COOLINGMIST

i am excited about utilizing a couple of Coolingmist systems.

one is 100% water (500 CCs) and the other is 1260 CCs of 100% meth looking for big hp.

the water system uses the new round gauge/controller and the trunkmount tank with the 250 psi pump. i built a fresh motor for the car w 22 degrees of additional port timing. the turbo is a GT35R w an ATP hotside. the owner autocrosses and runs Road America so we are looking for 400ish hp and a broad area under the curve.


the meth system (VC2 Stage 2) uses the 3.5 X3.5 display panel w two M10 nozzles and the 250 psi pump. i had a long talk w David at Coolingmist and am comfortable the pump will work fine w meth. the car runs the R85 turbo. i built a max port engine for it. ports are similar to my engine.
BTW, the car is gorgeous what w a fresh black paint job and Burnout body panels.

we will all be on the Beyond Redline Dyno in a few weeks so stay tuned as we explore what you can do w water and crank up the meth.

thanks to Jason at the RX7Store for all the help this year.

howard

BenjiRX-7

iTrader: (3)

Hi howard,

I read this here: http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50764
and i want to know your opinion about it

"Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless. It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all. It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust. It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails. The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter."

Thank you