RedBaronII

iTrader: (4)

Following the valued info here, I got the FJO Low Impedance Injector Controller.
My question is:
Do I have to connect all 4 injectors (550pri and 1600sec) or just the high impedance 1600sec????
Tia

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

You can wire it either way. The fjo detects what type they are.

filli

iTrader: (1)

Good info! Thanks Howard

wolf_9782

bump for great justice, more rotorheads need to know this information!

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

GREAT thread.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"GREAT thread."

ironic coming from the guy who first had AI on his FD. i thought he was a little nutty intil i started to read the engineering.

he's the smart guy...

thanks Ken.

hc

aoc007

iTrader: (5)

So what does injecting the meth change the common 14.7 gasoline stochiometry to?

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

I suppose it could be calculated, but it's not really needed information since you still use gasoline figures for tuning purposes. Lambda 1 is always stoich. And wideband meters are all calculated to show lambda in gasoline terms. So stoich, or lambda 1, will always be displayed as 14.7 on your gauge even if the mixture is not gasoline.

PhoenixDownVII

I read the original post by Coleman but have not read all 19 pages of this thread so I apologize if this is redundant but I think this may be a relevant question:

Is there a suggested list of minimal modifications required to run an FD as basic as possible? For someone looking to simply enjoy it on the road when possible.

Most here seem to have the budget and time to build something they can run on the street and the track. I do not have the same amount of time or money.

I loved the piece-of-mind and ease of my 02 Miata; it nearly "surpassed" the disadvantage in performance, beauty, feedback, etc.

While I certainly wouldn't mind more than the factory 255hp which is quite weak for 2010 standards; I also would love to end up with something I'm not afraid to take out casually... something that wouldn't require monitoring 8-10 extra statistics...

-Dan

arghx

iTrader: (3)

The less you modify your car (beyond the reliability/cooling mods) the less trouble it will give you. Just install a downpipe, and FC cooling fan thermoswitch, and at some point the air separation tank and other stuff that might crack/fail. For track use maybe you can get an upgraded radiator and dual oil coolers (if you don't have an R1/R2). It won't give you any trouble with that provided the vacuum lines and solenoids are ok.

All these people overboosting and detonating have modified their car for power. If you leave it alone you won't have these problems as long as you fix the stuff as it ages and fails (vacuum lines for example). Cooling mods will also help longevity of your coolant seals. All the AI stuff is fine but if you don't really mod your car you don't need it, not if you are starting with a engine that you are maintaining properly.

PhoenixDownVII

But all of the mild mods like downpipe, switches, alum radiator, etc. all help but don't seem to compare in the debate of heat as Howard is originally proposing: Single Turbo + injection. You still have the cast iron bolted to the side of the motor despite all your cooling efforts.

Is this moreso an answer for reliability in a *Competitive* setup (as it seems to be...)?

I ask this as I previously owned a well-maintained FD with most of the mild reliability mods but the motor still decided to cook its own coolant seals by 62k miles.

If I get in an FD again I'd like to know she'll last a long while. The piece-of-mind is such a huge factor to me it nearly ruins all other aspects of a car. As I mentioned above my slothlike stock 02 miata was nearly as enjoyable simply because I didn't have to worry so much.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Pick your poison. You're trading one set of headaches (vacuum lines and sequential crap) for another (worrying about blowing it up), trust me. There's no panacea. Yeah an FD has a cast iron exhaust manifold. So does every other car from the era, including the more reliable turbo piston engines, and including the more reliable single turbo 2nd generation cars. Newer turbo cars have factory stainless exhaust manifolds.

The more you try to modify the engine from it's original design, the more likely it is to fail--with the exception of aforementioned basic reliability mods (chiefly cooling). On paper the single turbo setup is better--that's partly why the 2nd generation turbo cars were single turbo and were more reliable. Power modifications are inherently unreliable and detrimental to engine life. Custom tunes are never as safe as factory tunes designed by guys in labcoats. On a factory tune you have a rich mixture, timing safe for any premium fuel grade, knock control, overboost fuel cut, limp mode for a failed OMP. On a custom tune you have none of that. And this is coming from the guy who has practically written a book on tuning Rx-7's (see my Power FC tuning thread).

Who knows what the original owner did. I've seen multiple FD's go over 100k on the original motor. If you think you are going to get more mileage on your 2nd engine than your first, you are not living in reality. If it doesn't experience a catastrophic failure (overheat or detonation) it will wear out because there are reused housings etc. Then again, who drives a 17 year old car 12k or 15k miles a year for multiple years? So the motor lasts 5-8 years, what else were you expecting? Do you think rebuilt piston engines on modified turbo sports cars last 100k miles?

Stay stock, stay happy--within the bounds of reliability mods. If you want to install AI, fine. It has a lot of benefits. It's "a fix" but it's not "the fix" in the sense that it will make all the hassles of having a modified FD go away. An FD is not a Civic Si. You can go single turbo and be constantly inspecting/wrenching on it all the time, messing with the tune, looking at gauges, etc. Or you can keep it 100% stock power wise and worry about vacuum hoes and solenoids. The difference is, on a single turbo car you can detonate and blow it up, even with AI. AI has its place but it doesn't solve everything. You cannot blow up an unmodified engine from overboost or knock. It does not happen, the factory tune is too safe. That's assuming you put premium gas in it and take care of it like you would be reasonably expected to.

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Can someone verify this? Because i dont see how thats possible yet i did experience this first hand.

Lately i have been experiencing flat spots during high rpm and at first i thought it was ignition breakup. Come to find out i noticed i was probably hitting fuel cut because my boost gauge would sky rocket past 10psi. At one time during a 4th gear pull i have noticed almost 20psi!!! It got there quick and i let off right away. This has happened numerous times.

I have the stock ecu.

Initially i thought it was a faulty boost gauge but my vacuum readings are perfect.

Can you explain how overboost on a stock ecu will not blow up your engine as opposed to overboost on a PFC or something?

Im confused.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I agree with your points. However I judge the assumptions differently.

It's assuming your injectors never have a problem, your fuel pressure never drops due to a filter problem or g-load starvation, and every service station that you buy premium fuel from actually fills their tank with premium fuel. I've experienced the first two for certain. That last one is the reason I'll never say never to detonation even with a stock FD. I know a fuel delivery truck driver who was told by various station managers to fill the premium tank with 87 even though it's illegal. He said it was not specifically one chain either, many of them were doing it.

My car does not yet have AI. I bought a kit but never got around to installing it and sold it for something else. On stock boost levels I happen to believe that basic cooling mods, intake, and downpipe are enough of an improvement in engine temps for what I'm doing. But that said, a well controlled AI system will further control engine temps and that can only make coolant seals last longer.

PhoenixDownVII

This is true, and what I've been resolving in consideration. So many of us want to know and believe our new setup will last 100k+ miles yet few of us have put that many miles on our FD or will keep it long enough to do that.

I think next time around I'll do my best to get either an FD with a fresh motor or with one on its way out so I can oversee everything that gets manipulated in the lifetime of the motor from the beginning.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I don't have your car in front of me so there's not much I can tell you about your situation. If you have mods, my statements don't apply fully and all bets are off. A distinction must be made: Stock ECU with stock engine = safest realistic tune possible that still drives correctly. Stock ECU with a bunch of mods = potentially dangerous.

What i was trying to say was that the stock systems were all engineered together. A STOCK engine maybe with an aftermarket downpipe (JDM cars didn't have a precat), but stock cat, stock catback, proper vacuum routing, etc isn't going to excessively overboost anyway. This is because the factory boost control system was designed to work with the stock exhaust. If by some freak situation something does go wrong and you excessively overboost, at some point you will hit fuel cut. If you do knock due to some bad gas, the factory ECU will retard timing up to 7 degrees to protect the motor according to the service highlights document. Aftermarket knock control systems don't work very well.

Very very few people have a 100% stock car with a PFC, so that's kind of a weird situation. Many of the people with a PFC turn off the fuel cut because they have an aftermarket boost controller. This isn't something I agree with. If they get bad gas they have no knock control to protect them. If the OMP fails they have no limp mode to warn them. If the weather changes they have to pray that the IAT compensation and the fuel maps are ok. Most people turn off the O2 sensor feedback (b/c it sucks on the PFC) so they can't pass emissions as easily and without a bunch of tuning they have worse gas mileage.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Anything is possible, and there is always somebody on the internet who will claim certain things resulted in their engine failure. Maybe I made an overgeneralization. But when you compare a completely stock setup and even a so-called "mildly" modified one, which is most likely to survive such a failure? The one engineered as a complete system with built-in failsafes, or the one that was thrown together in somebody's garage and tuned in two hours?

You have to remember that, in addition to the safe AFR's under boost the factory engineers designed a knock control system to retard timing up to 7 degrees. And I'm sure somebody somewhere has run an FD on 87 octane for extended periods on the stock ECU, and did it without immediately blowing up the engine. The old FC turbo engines were actually designed for 87 octane. Stock = not bulletproof, but more idiotproof than a modified setup. Here is the info on the knock control system:



with a learning capability (first developed for series 5 turbo engines) to differentiate between knock and engine noise:



Ok, so nothing's impossible and maybe I was a bit hyperbolic before. But I stand by my assertion that a stock engine with a stock tune is the safest and best engineered for preventing engine damage due to overboost, bad gas, etc. Now that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and defend the cooling system, or the fragile interior, or the power window switches. But I have to give credit where credit is due.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

^^ how come this wasn't used in the PFC?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

development cost. the PFC hasn't really been updated much since it was developed in the mid to late 90s.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

this thread is probably not going to end...

the AI beat goes on.

Brian Caine (BDC) called me a couple of days ago with an update on his AI journey. Brian and i have informally collaborated over the last 4 years. we both decided on methanol and initially purchased Alkycontrol AI systems primarily due to our knowledge gained from the Turbobuick board's HUGE AI section...

what's HUGE?

currently there are 98 PAGES OF THREADS and 3911 threads starting in 2001.

you want to learn tuning? start reading.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alc.../?daysprune=-1

BDC and i did the reading, bought the system most run on the Buick board and started tuning, along the way i created an AI section for our board.

BDC runs an FC and felt his stock intercooler, which of course sits ontop of the engine, was a major negative. so he ditched it and didn't replace it.

his project was to see if the alcohol, with it's immense cooling properties, could eliminate the need for a big heavy restrictive intercooler.

guess what Brian did a couple of days ago?

he ran 27 psi of boost on pump gas and methanol and his intake air was 123 degrees and the engine is still running strong! (no intercooler)

27 psi on pumpgas and AI!

the turbo is pretty good size... around 75 lbs per minute.

BDC says the car is scary fast.

pumpgas and 27 psi.

AI is the answer... "the fix."

way to go Brian.

howard

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

c

floatyghosthat

iTrader: (5)

Fantastic thread Howard, amazing stuff. You are a true asset to the rotary community.

I've read through all of this and most of your other posts, and I had a quick question in regards to WI...

I am looking at running pure distilled water at 300-400cc/min. I'm not looking for more power, just some lower charge temps and a cleaner engine. If I ever decide to start playing with meth, I will most likely buy a new kit and start fresh.

That being said, is there any major advantage to getting an HD-AI system if it's ONLY going to be used for water?

If it's just water, then there's no need to be that precise tuning for it. If I don't need to tune for it, then there doesn't seem to be much need to log it, right? I don't mind spending the extra money if it helps but if there's no real advantage then I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

If that is the case, is there any particular kit you'd recommend for running straight water? Injector size?

If it matters, my pertinent mods are;

Power FC
Apexi intake
HKS cat-back
Greddy piping
Walbro pump
Stock turbos
stock motor

On the way
Pettit CC3
HKS DP
resonated midpipe
Rotary aviation OMP
Datalogit

Thanks!

-Devan

ismaelruiz

Hi. I just bought a Labonte Alcohol kit for my FD with 2 M10 nozzles. What would be the recommended engine timing and split at 25 psi with 93 octane fuel. I know it depends on setup, but I just want rough value to start tuning.

Ismael

rxse7en

LOVE this thread. Thank you, guys. I'm tuning my FC now and contemplating AI for reliability as I'm only looking at ~300rwhp with my current setup. What do you guys think about water/meth injection at my current level and maybe going larger hybrid in the near future?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

my third AI system
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

back in 2003, after doing lots of research, i decided i wanted to help out my pump gas w as much methanol as possible.

looking over the available options in 2003 i decided to go w Julio Don's Alkycontrol system. Julio had zillions of high value threads/posts on the most important AI forum on the net... TurboBuick. the Alcohol Propane and Nitrous section had over 200 PAGES of threads back in 04.

i was not disappointed. i ran two M15 nozzles, around 1300 CCs/Min and made 507 SAE rwhp at 20 psi w the Alkycontrol system.

just to make sure you don't miss the point re what 1300 CCs of meth can do for lowly pump gas...

507 X 1.15 = 583 SAE flywheel hp from 159 cubic inches or 3.66 hp per cubic inch!

other engines of note measure out comparatively:

McLaren MP4 2.55
Porsche 911 Turbo 2.15
Nissan GTR 2.09
Corvette ZR1 1.69

knock at 3.66 hp/cu inch which is an advance tell as to meltdown was under 10 at 7500-8500 rpm!

the meth worked it's magic.

i tore the motor down after 4 seasons and it was devoid of carbon and at the time of inspection had the highest compression for the 4 years.

BUT

the Alkycontrol is a pump/nozzle deal and, as such, is fine for dyno and drag racing and is not able to bob and weave during transient throttle situations, like in a corner at Road Atlanta.

i discovered FJO in 2009 and they had what i needed. fuel injectors running on an X Y grid w RPM and Load.

i call it HD AI.

and it is awesome. i ran it in 09 and 10. you just dialed in the exact amount of alcohol you wanted in 156 cells!

i did have to mod it a bunch to run 100% meth. i had to install a return line and pressure regulator. once i did that and switched to a Bosch 044 type pump all was super.

until this year.

the FJO module failed. not a surprise as everything else has failed since last Nov.

Kenne Bell Boost A Pump
Datalogit
Power FC

and now the FJO AI unit.

while the other items have all been replaced w new the FJO unit is no longer available.

which brings me to this post.

the executive summary:

since i have the pump, tank (4.5 gal), return line, adj Weldon pressure reg i am going to use what i have and

add two additional injectors to my elbow and drive them thru the Power FC. these 2 injectors will flow methanol.

i am now back to having AI being able to be precisely delivered... in 400 cells.

here are the details:

my objective is 600 rwhp SAE maximum.
max fuel delivery must be at no more than 85% duty cycle
i want enough spare fuel to run to 10.0 to one AFR (not that i plan to, i just want reserve deliverability.)


here's the numbers for those interested...

600 rw rotary hp

600 X 1.92 = 1152 CFM
1152/ 14.471 = 79.6 call it 80 pounds of air per minute
11.3 target AFR means it takes 80/11.3 = 7.08 pounds of gasoline
7.08/ 6.35 = 1.115 gallons gas per minute
1.115 X 116,090 (BTUs in a gallon of gas) = 129,429 BTUs to make 600 rw rotary hp.

primaries 2 X 850 = 1700 X .85 (duty cycle limit) = 1445 CC/Min

1445 = .3817 GPM X 116,090 = 44,311 BTUs from primaries

129,429 - 44311 = 85,118 (BTUs needed from secondaries)

i want 2000 CC/Min of Methanol (from experience this works really well w pump gas at 500 hp, knock under 10)

2000 = .5283 gal
.5283 X 57,250 (BTU in a gallon of meth) = 30,245

85,118 BTUs - 30,245 = 54,872 BTUs needed from two gas secondaries

54,872/ 116,090 = .4726 g of gas

.4726 = 1789 CC/Min


from the above it is clear:

i will run two Bosch EV14 1000 CC/Min conical spray pattern injectors in my secondary ports and two Bosch EV14 1000 CC/Min short body conical spray pattern in my elbow.

the Power FC is fully capable of driving each of the 6 injectors and we will simply tune as if no AI system is present.

i can vary the output if i wish of the meth injectors as my pump can raise the pressure significantly.

this appears to be a simple way to end up w an HD AI system.

i will report back when up and running. the injectors are on the way.

howard