Richard L

Methanol Conc.
Wt. % (Vol.%)---Freezing Point,F(C)---Flash Point, (TCC) F(C)
0(0)--------------- 32(0)--------------------- No Flash
10(13)----------- 20(-7)-------------------- 130(54)
20(24)----------- 0(-18)-------------------- 110(43)
30(35)---------- -15(-26)------------------- 95(35)
40(46)---------- -40(-40)------------------- 85(29)
50(56)---------- -65(-54)------------------- 75(24)
60(66)---------- -95(-71)------------------- 70(21)
70(75)---------- -215(<-73)---------------- 60(16)
80(83)---------- -225(<-73)---------------- 55(13)
90(92)---------- -230(<-73)---------------- 55(13)
100(100)------- -145(<-73)---------------- 55(13)

Doc-1

iTrader: (2)

We have several hundred post here with dozens of links. It might be time for someone to do an overview of where we are on this. May I suggest we cover basic options and applications with expected results. This will help everyone whom maybe considering doing this. I expect this mod will be common in the near future with the FD and almost all Turbo cars as well

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Doc-1 you raise a good point. i have already deleted over 150 posts in this thread attempting to keep it on message.

i do agree that the thread should focus, now, on branded systems, their general character and outcomes from boardmembers.

the Auxiliary Injection Section on this board provides an important additional venue for those doing pioneer work.

AI, in 2009, is way beyond Home Depot parts and an Engineering Degree. find the system that fits, bolt it in and leave your shop manual in the drawer.

i am expecting a series of posts by AI vendors detailing their systems and board members sharing results.

and Spring.

howard coleman

RedBaron7

iTrader: (2)

Any further news on the kits from FJO???

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i received an email from Alamo which apparantly was sent to all who expressed an interest. it details a couple of things FJO is doing prior to shipping out. since it has been delayed a few weeks i am not in a position to give you a date nor do i wish to speculate at this point. the email does go into specifics and anyone wishing the info can contact Alamo.

hc

DJF(NJ)

iTrader: (6)

I definitely want to do water injection after reading this! I'm only in the 300whp range with stock motor and turbos, but anything to run cleaner, cooler and last longer is worthwhile IMO. Thanks for the write-up!

Captain_Panic

iTrader: (15)

+1 I am at 300rwhp also and this is #3 on my list.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I will be installing a kit in my nearly-stock car this spring with the following goals:
- maximum driveability (use the latest technology that provides tangible benefit)
- water injection, pre-turbo
- simplest installation/tuning, compatible with stock ECU or aftermarket
- injection supporting up to 400hp
- install with all stock accessories in place
- reasonable price
- lower engine temps

I believe there are many like me with similar goals and the current array of options remains bewildering. The challenge is to determine what kind of system meets those goals, then people can follow how others have done it. I'm not sure if my install will be the best one to mimic, or that the kit I choose will be the best kit. By the sound of my discussion so far, there is no wrong kit, only good and gooder.

Dave

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

with the proliferation of single turbos and AI more and more FD pilots are turning up the boost.

of course you have to have all the ducks in a row and if you do the rotary is easily capable of cranking out 500 rear wheel hp... reliably.

given the Combustion Chamber Pressure (CCP) envolved when you are making 2-5 hp per cubic inch there are a few things that can spell instant motor doom.

i would like to draw your attention to one of the most lethal and probable.

whether you run the stock computer or a Power FC both the fuel map and ignition map reference off RPM and Load.

Load is the key. Load is determined by manifold vacuum or boost by the MAP sensor. (MAP being Manifold Absolute Pressure).

as most know, the MAP sensor bolts to the firewall near the brake reservoir. it connects to the engine using a small hose. the MAP sensor(whether stock of the often used GM 3 BAR) has a really nice lip on it to ensure that, w the addition of a tie wrap, the hose will not be blown off the unit.

////edit: after writing the above and not seeing a stock MAP sensor i actually am not sure that the stock sensor has a good lip or not... the GM unit has a really good lip. someone please let us know re the stock sensor lip////////

the other end of the MAP hose is where motors are blown.

we generally connect the MAP sensor hose to the engine using one of the 3 tubes at the rear face of the UIM. that's the problem... they are tubes w no retaining lips.

consider what happens when you have upped the boost, your right foot is on the floor and the hose blows off the UIM tube...

the computer senses no boost while the turbo is still making, say 18 psi. the computer immediately moves fuel and timing to a vastly different spot on the map.

instead of 15 degrees advance the engine receives 30 degrees. instead of 75-85% injector duty cycle the engine receives 20 or 30% duty cycle.


we are at redline and all of a sudden we have double the ignition advance and a quarter of the fuel.

all because of one hose being blown off!

as you know, there are around 9 tubes that we either use or cap off on the UIM, none have retaining lips. most, if they fail, will not cause engine failure.

in the 21st century enviornment w the ability to run 27 psi on pump gas and AI methanol reliably all of us need to rethink our pressure connections. i have a 3 inch lab grade pressure gauge and an adj regulator and it is easy to pressure up the connections to 30 psi to check integrity. i was really surprised as i headed towards 30 psi to see so many tie wrapped connections fail.

i welcome anyone's comments as to how they have uprated the connections. the simplist, though not necessarily the best, would be to make sure there is no grease on the tube (wipe it w alcohol) and use multiple tie wraps.

please do spend a moment and recheck your MAP hose at the UIM.

//// the fuel pressure regulator line is another that will cause immediate motor failure. it is generally attached to another of the tubes on the UIM. if it detaches at 25 psi fuel pressure drops from 65 to 40 psi... causing a lost engine.////

howard coleman

TimeMachine

iTrader: (10)

^^^Obviously taking the above-mentioned advice (ditto all your advice!) is beneficial for everyone, but many of us do not intend to run 20+ psi. Where would you consider a threshold pressure for failure w/o precautions: 20 psi? 25?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

sure... i am aware of a spread of tunes on the FD and respect them all. w regard to the MAP and FPR line i would certainly at minimum carefully tie wrap at the UIM both no matter the boost because if the hose blows off at 12 psi and the fuel and ignition map heads to zero boost your motor will be in trouble.

hc

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I did not run into lines blowing off until I got over 20psi. at 18psi everything behaved like it was 14-15psi. and as was mentioned in the other thread, use 3.5mm or 5/32" high quality vacuum hose as well as high quality vacuum caps from McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCt...54344087987953 ) .

Avoid plastic tees and consider using Krazy Glue on your vacuum caps (which will never need to be removed) and on vacuum hose that won't be too difficult to cut off and replace (like the MAP sensor).

Barry Bordes

Howard, you should add to your list of engine killers the line that going to the waste gate diaphragm lower side.

Most people use AN lines there but if it fails you will find out what boost your turbo will really make!

Barry

BDC

That's what I do, Barry. I converted to -4AN on my major vacuum lines -- boost solenoid IN and OUT to wastegate as well as blow-off valve. Now that I'm taking the car down for a short bit, I plan on converting the MAP and FPR source off the upper intake manifold to a -3AN by removing the nipple and drilling/tapping it to 1/8"NPT. Shouldn't ever have to worry about it blowing off.

B

TimeMachine

iTrader: (10)

Howard, Richard L,

I am VERY interested to hear your take on the information being espoused in this article that denounces HD-AI as ineffective, about half way down:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#mix

///RSR mainly makes water AI systems for motorcycles and as such offers products in the 100-400 CC/Min delivery range. they have designed their own pump that maxxes out around 350 CC/Min. this would work for someone running in the 300-375 hp range. i have no problem w their product. there are a few items in the generally informative and well written piece with which i disagree. the treatment of solenoid/fuel injector type AI delivery misses how it works. Solenoid systems are not port timed to coincide w a particular combustion event. they are designed to be able to add a very very specific amount of injectant on command. it is irrelevant how many Ms it might take to cycle.

most misunderstand what is really going on within the intake runner. if you think of it like a blender you will be right on the mark. the intake port opens, the turbo is cramming air into the port and then the intake closes. the mixture heading towards the port at near the speed of sound rams into the closed port and bounces back towards the throtle body. this dynamic provides a profound mixing of whatever is in the runner. AI injects into the runner or turbo... therefore you have it all mixed by the back and forth movements... before it gets into the rotor chamber. so RSR is unnecessarily worrying about just how much time it takes to open and close the solenoid. it makes no difference.

howard///

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

AI isn't for everyone, only enthusiasts willing to go the extra mile to make sure their car lasts and performs. i recommend to anyone serious about wanting their car to perform and add a safety buffer but there is downsides which you also have to take into account, as with anything that may seem simple there is always cost and even something that appears externally to be a water sprinkler for your intake can run up to and beyond $1k. you also have to maintain it, with AI if the injectant becomes off calbration then your tuning will be off so anyone who doesn't run the expensive cut off type of units like the one listed in the original post then the car's tuning needs to be checked or the driver monitoring the AFRs manually.

with it comes maintenance, you have to clean the jets periodically so for non do it yourselfers you have to have the install shop do this, it has to be done far more often than your fuel injection system needs to be cleaned unless you have some sort of filtration system in place for the injection system, even then simple filters need to be ordered and changed.

add on some systems do not have level sensors for the AI fluid level, you have to keep an eye on this most importantly because just like running your car hard when almost out of gas, the same can cost you when you do it when low on AI fuel.

for me personally i think AI is long overdue and the benefits outweigh the negatives but there is a price still to pay with it in complexifying the car more and possibly installing a system with no failsafes that can actually add another failure point to the car.

a little devil's advocate work, 'cause someone had to do it. the original post made it sound too good to be true and it possibly can be if you are not vigilant about it.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

re availability...

an FJO customer had a pump leak a couple of weeks ago. the pump had been in service more than a year and was 100% meth. FJO was just about to ship, and sent the pump to Shurflo for diagnosis.

last week Shurflo provided an answer.. they said the pump failed because it was 100% meth. it is my understanding that Shurflo has consistantly stated that their pumps are not 100% meth compatible.

i do know that Alkycontrol uses a Shurflo pump but they mod it. pretty much no failures on 100% meth. i ran their pump and system for a year w no issues.

i currently run a Bosch "909" pump in my system and while Bosch states that their pump is not compatible w meth many people have done it. i drain it in the winter.

i may call Weldon this coming week and see if they could come up w just the pump we want... we could still run the FJO system without the FJO pump.

i will report in next week on FJO shipping status and other pump alternatives.

my condolences to all on this... hang in there just a bit longer.

howard

arghx

iTrader: (3)

i don't think there are a ton of people who are just dying to specifically run 100% methanol

Richard L

I am not 100% certain which specific paragraph you were referring to. If it is about what type of alcohol to use of AI injection, I can help with some construction comments.

Methanol, ethanol and isopropyl are pure alcohols. Denatured alcohol is a mix of the three, ethanol being the dominant ingredient.

I would stay away from denatured alcohol because of other nasty chemicals are added as an denaturant - Acetone, Methyl Isobutyl Ketone are amongst them. Because of the unknown additives, it might not be chemically compatible with the pump or any wetted rubber materials along the delivery line.

Isopropyl is not recommended due to this article below (long, but good read):
http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf

So methanol and ethanol is the only alcohol I recommend. Methanol has a higher latent heat of evaporation property than ethanol. Octane value is about the same. They are both corresive to certain metal.

Care must be taken when you use methanol, it is hazard to health so venting the tank breather ourside the car is recommened.

Recently, methanol is the main ingredient to produce home-made bio-diesel. So shop around it can be very cheap. VP racing has three grades, M1, M3 and M5. Use M1 only, 99.99% pure. Source it from an industrial supplier rather race shops, it is much cheaper. Only buy them in selaed containiers for purity.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

thought you all might be interested in a thread posted in the AI section...


Cooling Mist WooHoo!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did the Cooling Mist just to prevent detonation and increased reliabilty, not to increase boost or HP.
I track my car in the heat of Texas and run open waste gate (about 10lbs.) at the track, since that's all I need.
Chris from Rotary Performance check my maps at the Dyno.
He did a base run without Cooling Mist and 4 with it on.
The results were:
1st.- Base run 281 rwhp, all settings were good for open waste gate
2nd.- run with Cooling Mist, it dropped to 273 rwhp
3rd.- run with Cooling Mist, it went up 289 rwhp
4th. and 5th. repeated 289

Explantion for the drop and then increase from Chris was, what ever was inside the engine (carbon deposits) got steam cleaned out for the 3rd. run.

Those were, 5 runs back to back, 1.25 gallons of distilled water and 0.25 of alcohol on a 78* day.
If any heat soak was there, it was not a factor for the increased HP.
I'm very happy, thank you Cooling Mist.
8 more rwhp out of 10lbs. boost + an inexpensive and easy set up + water + reliability = PRICELESS!!!!

Having lost Cooling Mist voice in this forum = SUCKS!!!


Forgot driving around, when the temps got to mid 30's, I got to hit boost and the Cooling Mist came on and the AIT dropped to mid 20's + engine temps went down a few degrees.
This Water Injection is the amazing.

RedBaronII

BDC

Keep 'em coming!!

wolf_9782

spoke with BDC over the past week while here on his tuning trip in regards to AI, yep definitely goin with the aquamist!

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

looking to cool the beast?

looking for simple AI?

here it is:

http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmai...dardtrunkmount

hc

Richard L

Here is another one, they are very competitive - come with a very nice nozzle andf a very clever tank bulkhead adaptor.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/

tscurt

I just got around to reading this. A lot of good work!