Good call FDnewB.

Can anyone extrapolate above 6025, and draw a mathematically (not writing the one above is incorrect) correct graph?

 

Jimlab, have you ever considered a career in public relations?

 

No, because the whole graph is suspect, not just the portion above 6,025 rpm. Torque should be falling off past ~5,000 rpm with stock twins.

 

Jimlab, how come? I don't know/understand why your torque curve would start to drop right where the second turbo has begun to fully boost...id think you're going to get full torque shortly after 5K...no?

 

The stock twins lack the flow to sustain power at higher rpm, therefore torque starts falling off at ~5,500 rpm or so. A single turbo can sustain torque out to ~6,250-6,500 rpm or more, but of course you're trading low end for that increase in power at the high end of the rpm range.

 

But he is running ported twins. So wouldn't that change the torque peak a little?

 

It's not just the twins, but the stock ports that restrict the flow at high rpm. Therefore, on a twin car (stock ported especially), torque always falls off after 5000-5500 rpm.

EVERY car made has a torque peak and then torque drops off as the car approaches the horsepower peak/redline. The horsepower still goes up after the torque peak, due to the increasing rpm. The horsepower peak occurs at the point where rpm vs. the torque fall-off is maximized. After that, the increase in rpms cannot keep up with the torque fall-off and horsepower begins decreasing again.

 

He's running clipped twins which would not change the torque peak. If he has a ported engine, it would move torque peak up a little, but not by 1,000+ rpm. The dyno chart he posted is something you might see from a small single turbo, if we didn't already know that it was worthless just by checking the math.

 

jim and the rest of you haters...why dont u friggen grow up already....and let it go? It obvious that there are holes in pg's story and obvious that he probably doesnt have all the answers. What do you want him to do? I mean whats the benefit you are seeking? To humilate the guy or something. For some reason you enjoy humilating people, Jim. I dont get it. Especially from someone your age.Why dont we let jason test the thing and then we will have a debate if its worth the money or not.

 

To me, the use of the word "haters" represents a lot of what is wrong with our society....

Why are so many people trying to cut this guy a break? He is trying to sell a product he had nothing to do with developing for as much money as he can make. I don't get the impression that he gives a rat's *** about the rotary community, only about making a profit.

You don't bring out a product like this, especially with the demand and hype over the last year, with no factual evidence to support your claims. Even worse, you certainly don't come out with obviously errant info, which you are not smart enough to realize is errant.

It's not our fault that PG Unlimited blew their wad by announcing the product well before they were ready. Some of us are just trying to prevent other forum members from getting tooled by an untested or overly-hyped device. Like I said earlier, I think you could sell sand to about 1/3 of the forum members if they were stranded in the desert.

Think people, it's not illegal yet. Now, I'm perfectly content to let this thread die until we get some info from Jason.

 

rynberg...i dont think the guy deserves a metal for his actions..especially since i have been a customer of dave's for 5 yrs. Do i think pg made some errors,do i think pg might have been alittle sneaky? Yes. but i am not preoccupied with following him around and calling him out. To what end? What would be the purpose? I have my view of this situation. It my view.

You want to talk about things being wrong in society... My problem is with the constant attacking that goes on. This thread is just one example. Some times a person just needs to move on rynberg. A person that doesnt move on and is constantly attacking others has some sort of anger management issue or some other psychology problem.

edit:rynberg, i am not talkig about u in the last paragraph..its pretty obvious who i am talking about.

 

one more thing....what i meant by the term "haters" is that i think some people have a hidden agenda when they debunk the development of this item. It seemed pretty obvious to me from day one. Way before pg was even involved let alone made a poor attempt to beat others at offering this product to the market.

 

To save other people money and disappointment? Obviously I have nothing to gain personally by stating my views on this product or the seller. As I said before, some of us have been around long enough to understand what this modification is supposed to achieve (and how) and why it's mostly hype. We don't have to "wait and see" to form an opinion about it. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that no one else can make statements concerning it without waiting to see results. Did you read what Roger Mandeville said about it in the thread I linked to? He hasn't seen test results yet either, but he already knows the outcome based on knowledge and experience with the rotary engine. If you don't respect my opinion, you should at least respect his.

Steve got blown out of the water in the previous thread for making inaccurate claims, takes a holiday, and then comes back in this thread acting as if it never happened. I want him to own up to the fact that he doesn't really know what he's talking about because he played very little or no part in developing the product and that the dyno numbers he's provided as proof are worthless. He's in no position to be advising anyone about this modification and should just stop posting before he digs himself any deeper. He doesn't really understand it and is merely repeating what he thinks it does or what he heard from someone else. He's a front man, nothing more.

It's also ridiculous to state that his supplier is dictating the sale price and had to be consulted to lower it to $150. It makes a good story and shifts blame from himself, but he apparently isn't aware that price fixing is illegal, or that his actions are so transparent.

It's my experience that people who use the term "hater" usually aren't very intelligent, and you're obviously no exception. My theory is that they don't understand the motive behind criticism of something, or the criticism itself, so the person stating a negative viewpoint must just be a "hater". That's about as ignorant as it gets. Congratulations.

 

Perhaps you like to make a judgement before you have good information but i certainly dont.

..fact is skip and dave did have great results after they tunned for it otherwise they would not have sold them to customers. I am convinced of that based on 5 yrs of experiences with them. You dont become a world renowned shop by ripping people off. I myself probably wont buy the product until there is a decent amoutn of information avail;able that supports the product. I am not talking about a couple of hours on the dyno either. With the information that we currently have it seems as there are heat related problems..so i will have to wiat and see.

Also, thks for the attack on the level of my intellect. How exactly did u reach that conclusion. You dont even know me or know of any of the accomplishments that i have made in my life. You made that assumption based on my use of the word "haters". I think thats pretty ignorant and a great illustration of exactly how screwed up your logic and reasoning is.

It is was and is my contention that certain people condemned the product/concept before there was even a shadow of a guess as to what it does or is. I think there was a hidden agenda at work. I wont call anyone out...not my style.

 

Price fixing? How is this price fixing?

Jim: You never contested Jason's point about the dyno setting being off, causing the torque and hp mismatch on Steve's dyno sheet. I'm not too familiar with this, but how could a mis-setting (I think he said he didn't put the weight in?) cause the hp calculation to change? I'm a little confused.

 

Perhaps I already have all the information I need to make a judgment. Did you ever think of that? No, my judgment is negative, and therefore I'm just a hater. After all, it's not possible that someone with a negative opinion could actually have an accurate negative opinion...

From what I've heard, customers have had it taken off their cars and are trying to sell them. If the results were so great, why isn't there ample evidence by now? Why were people shocked to learn that it was just a couple of fake spark plugs and some retuning after all the hype that's gone on over the last year?

No comment.

Don't care.

People who use the word "haters" typically aren't bright enough to reason out things for themselves and understand that someone could have a negative viewpoint and still be right. It's one of the least thought-intensive responses to a disagreement of opinion that anyone could come up with, and that fits with the level of intelligence evident in posts you've made in the past. You're a step above ZeroBanger, but that's not saying much.

 

whatever u say jim...atleast i dont go around attacking people all day on an internet forum. Whats the deal there? I really want to know this. Were you raped by your father....i am being serious....something happened.

Your comments in regard to my intelligence dont mean squat to me. I have nothing to prove and am very happy were i have taken myself in life. When you argue u insult your foe's intelligence..every time and noone agrees with you. You attempt to put yourself on a high pedelstal, but if you opened up your mind and were truly inteligent you would identify that you are the only person on your side.

The term haters was used a few times on this thread. So i used it. Your definition of a hater is different than mine. Perhaps its b.c of your age. A hater isnt a person with a differing opinion for a valid or logical reason. A hater is a person that has a a predetermined opinion based on their agenda which is usually jealousy.

 

Matty, you know better than this. Please don't make me hand out warnings.

 

oh and i didnt see anyone returning or selling the mod from kdr....can u direct me to that thread please.

 

A manufacturer of a product may specify a recommended retail price for that item, but it is not legal to require that a retailer of the product fix his price at that level. The retailer can set his price at whatever level the market will bear, but cannot sell at less than cost in order to undercut another retailer of the same product. If they are able to buy in much larger quantities than their competitors, however, they can get a lower cost per unit which allows them to still realize a profit and legally undercut competitors at the same time. Most people call this business practice "Wal-Mart".

If Steve actually has an agreement of that type with the manufacturer, then that's price fixing, or a deliberate attempt to keep the price artificially high, which is illegal. Major record labels got away with this for years with CDs and cassettes. I suspect that no such agreement exists, and he was merely trying to pass the blame for poor estimation of how much customers were willing to pay for a pair of fake spark plugs.

There are a lot of ways to affect the outcome of a dyno run. Recently, it's become the fashion to post "actual" numbers, mostly because they're typically higher and therefore usually more impressive. SAE correction, on the other hand, is intended to make results from facility to facility in different states, climates, and elevations comparable, or at least as comparable as possible. If you don't see "SAE Corrected" or "SAE Horsepower" on a dyno sheet, you know that no correction factor was used. Even if you do, it's possible to use a correction factor that "enhances" the resuts. That's only one way to skew the results.

It was obvious that the numbers were incorrect (easily checked with the formula I posted) and too high for his stated modification list and claimed boost levels, which means that something wasn't right. Jason pointed out that it was probably the calibration. My point wasn't necessarily to prove that Steve may have been involved with skewing the numbers, but that he didn't even know that they were skewed or inaccurate.

 

Wow, another anti-det. thread huh? I'm really not sure why...none of you should even THINK of driving/tuning on your daily cars with this product until some real long term testing has been done. This means someone putting it in their cars and datalogging results for many many miles. I think Jason has the right attitude and is doing a great thing by being the guinea pig for this product but I wouldn't expect staggering results. This entire product release has had problems from the beginning and since it was handled in such a sloppy manner, I wouldn't buy this thing unless I was sure that the benefits outweighed the risks. I think the skepticism comes from the fact that this product and everything relating to it (price, hype, secrets, documentation) has been a bit weird/fishy.

 

Right, but my question was how could an incorrect dyno input change the hp calculation? I'm not questioning the quantity of the numbers or correction factors or anything like that, but the mismatch between torque and hp. Dynos measure torque and rpm, and then calculate hp, correct? In other words, how could a messed up input or an incorrect correction factor change the formula 'hp = torque*rpm/5252'?

 

Good question, and for once I don't have an answer.

 

Jim, don't ensue for a second that you have any insight as to the contractual obligations of my company regarding this product. Who said this product was being sold as a profit for pg-unlimited.com? Fact is, you don't have any clue as to the nature of my obligations and unless I or a representative of pg-unlimited.com have informed you, your opinions are un-bias, inaccurate, and are of the opinion.

Regarding the dyno, you are trying to debunk my numbers based on mathematic calculations used to determine the “Norm” for the 3rd gen RX-7. Has any testing been performed on these cars with the trailing disabled? Who ever said that the list of mods done to my car was a complete list? There are modifications on my vehicle that are proprietary to my company. I never claimed that anyone would acquire the exact same results I have experienced, not once.

I too appreciate the brutality of this forum, in keeping people honest but your constructive criticisms have transformed into what I feel is an all out defamation of my personal character that you know nothing about.

I concede that my logistical handling of this product sucks ***, I thought we all agreed upon this several pages back so why don’t we wait for some other testers to demonstrate this product and stop drawing conclusions on guesses and personal opinions of how this product may or may not work.

Thanks,

Steven

 

thats the reason i started this thread. . . i had no idea it would turn into some sort of bash-fest by forum members. this was NOT my intention. . . my only intention was to get SOLID information about the product. . . as well as, put out information that HAS been documented by the seller(s).

i think there are a few posts on this thread that need to be deleted. they add NO useable info to the thread topic. id go on about my feelings about such posts. . . but then mine would be deleted as well.

paul