i said this in my thread about my project and I will say it again here.

I ran my car with no trailing plugs firing and guess what..IT RUNS LIKE CRAP. it runs rough...loses power...and overall felt like junk.

water injection is the way to do it right.

the old cliche says there is no sense in taking from peter to pay paul...if you have to increase boost to make up for the power lost from running no trailing then you end up with more heat which causes stress on the motor and also o ring failure.

water injection cools your intake temps 20 degrees instantly...and it also decreases detonation. you might as well pay the money to do it right...decrease temps...decrease chances of detonation and at the same time your car wont run like ***** because you are running only your leading plugs.

I know...I ran my car for two days and broke in the motor on only the leading plugs due to a faulty ignition wiring harness. guess what...everyone at the shop I was at laughed about this product and said the same thing I am saying...run water injection.

scam


jason

 

there was one word in there, jason, that got to me. . . i agree with one word in that post sooooooooooo much. thats why this product was kept secret. . . yet allowed hype to be built. thats why this product was marketed with the "hey, help this guy out" slogan. thats why this product was only available at ONE shop. thats why this product had to have a nondisclosure agreement signed before sale. 1+1=2 guys. . .

paul

 

I'm also in the process of gathering some video of the car on the dyno, showing the product in use, with the A/F I've claimed, along with a shot of the screen with the dyno numbers as they are being provided. This in conjunction with Jason's findings along with others will hopefully shed a positive spin onto something that has received such an initial negative vibe from everyone.

Thanks,

Steven

 

I DONT CARE if you get THAT information!!! the information i care about seeing is called a DAMAGE REPORT. . . or a POTENTIAL DAMAGE REPORT. if jason finds that the mod has potential to cause premature o-ring failure then it simply isnt worth it and needs to be turned into a REAL bolt. . . then you can use it when you store your motor or something. . . thats all the worth i see in it. the mod doesnt make sense from a safety standpoint. . .

paul

 

A shot in the dark...

Artguy, *IF* we (for the sake of argument) say your car was running like crap due to any other reason, and assume based on others' experience who ran the plugs that the car can run just fine w/ the plugs installed, wouldn't you agree that there are definetly potential positives to using BOTH water injection AND the plugs?

Water injection would decrease your temps, both the water injection and the plugs decrease your chances of detonation, and the plugs let you run even leaner, getting more bang outta your fuel...

It may even be that w/ the higher temps you'd see using the plugs, + water injection, you may see normal temps, yet running leaner AFRs, and still seeing a benefit. Is this not possible, or am I way off the mark?

 

skip (kdrotary) told myself and david garfinkle that the cars they tuned with the device AND water injection had all taken them out. . . cause it didnt work with it or something. i dont see how that happened. . . well, unless its cause the kit was setup for one amount of fuel and now its running way less.

regardless of that, running turbos over their efficiency levels only produces what???? heat. and thats not good.

paul

 

Paul, thanks for the info.

And I'm w/ you on running turbos above their efficiency level...but I don't think that has to necessarily be the case...you can just get away w/ higher boost on lower gas. Or if you got a big single that very well can handle higher boost, you can make those bigger numbers w/o running c16 or somethin. At least that's what I'm thinking...

 

And once again...

torque * rpm / 5,252 = horsepower

254.3 lb-ft. * 6250 rpm / 5,252 = 302.6 hp @ 6,250 rpm

302.6 hp @ 6,250 rpm > 273.5 hp @ 6,750 rpm

So why is horsepower at the torque peak higher than at the horsepower peak?

Second, no one makes 300+ RWHP on a Mustang dyno at only 8-10 psi on stock twins. In fact, even 270 RWHP is hard to swallow. How much boost were you running again?

 

The twins are non-seq and ported. The dyno graph is what it is Jim, I guess it will take someone with more reputation such as Jason to help prove or dis-prove my figures. I could argue back and forth until I'm blue in the face and it wouldn't make a difference for some people. If you didn't live 3000 miles away I'd take you for a ride tomorrow to help ease your mind......

Thanks for your help.

Steven

 

about two years ago, my wiring harness for the coils failed (due to old age and heat cycling) causing me to have no trailing ignition as well. My experiences have been similar to artguy, the car started like ****, ran like ****, and also a noticeable loss in power.

Also, if you had no trailing ignition, wouldn't this cause your motor to have more unburnt fuel, causing more carb build up, etc??

save your money off this one people, there is no substitution ever for fine engine tuning

 

Was this on a stock ECU or aftermarket? If it was a stand-alone engine management, (PowerFC), yes it will run like **** until you tune it. I don't mean tune for power but it requires additional tuning for startup, idle, and part throttle acceleration. All this is stated on the website......

Thanks for your input,

Steven

 

the best anti detonation device is a V8 just fooling. I love the rotary but lets face it getting this little engine to make a reliable 400 plus hp is just asking too damn much.

 

Why would the stock system not run like **** if it was missing trailing plugs firing? I assume you are saying stock can deal with it, since you mention tuning needed with non-stock ECUs.

 

I just dont see why people are not happy with 350 hp on the street and maybe some weight reduction, the traction and you should run consistent 12s and I think thats faster than you need to run on the street.

 

Gee, that explains the discrepancy with the dyno numbers then.

 

bwahahahaha

It's got nothing to do with "reputation", it's simple math. The dyno numbers you have there are MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. If you can't understand why, then there is little hope for you. I also find it extremely hard to believe that the twins would have a torque peak at 6250 rpm, even on a streetported motor. I have NEVER seen a peak that high on ANY non-single turbo motor.

BTW, getting back to tuning -- I know someone that is pretty knowledgable with the PFC -- they did a lot of experimentation and could not get the car to run well at all -- are you going to provide the "secret spice" to tuning or is that in our hands?

 

Maybe thats because hardly no one on this forum has ever seen a dyno with the leading plugs doing all the work.

 

people are saying that the rx7 store has distribution rights on this product...is this true? does this make testing impartial?

jim you crack me up....that was a total kick in the ***** and pg opened up his legs and let you kick him. again!

I love this forum...so many characters...so many people with knowledge and projects going on...it is hard to pull the wool over on peoples eyes nowadays huh?


honestly, i appreciate the skeptics nowadays. Ive bought a lot of crap for this car in the past or taken it toward the hype and have been bitten because of it. so thanks to those with legit experience whom are shedding light on the situation...both good and bad...facts are facts.

1fook...agreed. the car runs like *** on two plugs.

tuning wont help you make that 2 plug car run like a 4 plug machine. nor will it take away the heat and stress caused by running more boost.

the best PROVEN way is great tuning and water injection.



btw...the maroon who insinuated my car was running like **** for some other reason wasnt there when we troubleshot the entire ignition system and narrowed it down to one wire...which we fixed...and purrrrrrr....smooth 4 plug beauty.

if you want to support the store here and the forums...and you want to get less detonation just get the aquamist kit.

j




J


j

 

I've been reading the haters posts and thought I would chime in with an engineering viewpoint, Steven, please read this and comment based on your experience [no hate intended].

The anti-det device appears to have merit for knock suppression, as explained on their web site. Reasonable to expect a loss in power as some fuel/air will be unburned during power stroke as compared to twin spark config; curious if this loss is more significant at low,mid, or high rpm? suspect high rpm, please comment.

Since our motors have poor thermal efficiency-TE (large surface areas exposed to combustion which is why we run high oil and coolant temps), running rich can further reduce TE and therefore power; the leaner mixtures should bring back some of the power lost due to no trailing. Same applies to us with WI, need to lean out the motor to gain back the power loss from reduced TE. (with WI, can tune much leaner as the water provides the cooling that excess fuel provided under richer AFRs without WI ... water cools much better than fuel )

So its reasonable to expect one could tune leaner. Suspect that removing trailing plugs alone will richen up the AFR readings a bit due to misfire and/or poorer combustion efficiency, have you seen this and what AFRs are suggested with anti-det vs boost levels up to 20 psi on stock and street ported motors?

Assume that with the anti-det we need to advance leading quite a bit (I think of leading-L and split-S timing resulting in a "total" timing relationship where the twin plug setup can tolerate more L advance with more S, without trailing it should be like having large S so I would expect that much more L advance can be tolerated), what does L map look like across the rpm range from idle to cruise to wot so we can better evaluate the device in practice; stock vs ported vs boost up to 20 psi boost?

Curious to know the suggested timing because our motors are limited to a practical max advance given the combustion chamber shape made by the dished portion of the rotor. If you run too much advance the flame front might quench on the non-dished portion of the rotor and get misfire (need the dished portion of the rotor to be under the spark plug during ignition to limit quench of the flame front).

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this offline. Flamesuit, ON.

 

looks like boost creep ???

 

i dont see whats so friggen hard for some people to understand....unplugging the trailing isnt the mod alone..as stated above and several times in the past month.

 

I think the funniest part is that it says on his web site that he had to get approval from his supplier to drop the price by $300... riiiight. Blame it on the supplier.

http://www.pg-unlimited.com/

Translation: My dick got knocked in the dirt because I tried to sell what basically amounts to a pair of non-functional spark plugs for $450 with a bunch of bogus hype. Will you still like me and buy some if I drop the price to $150?

This guy is, without a doubt, the most bumbling and inept "salesman" I've ever seen...

 

As of now I havent worked out distribution of this product or even selling it. He asked if I would test this and post the results.
I think for anyone to be convinced the plugs/theory work there has to be some long term testing on this. More than just me slapping them on my car for a weekend and telling everyone my car runs fine.

Jason

 

I'd be more curious to see if there is any power difference using them. Since it is already known that there are some adjustments for the PFC to use this, what effects will it have on rechipped/stock ECU as far as power (since you can't tune them)?

I'd love to see some dyno's showing this type of comparison data.

I do find it interesting that the price has dropped from $450 to $150...

 

The best part is that $150 is still too expensive... it just sounds more reasonable compared to $450 .