rotorbrain

i was just thinking about the new release of this anti-det. device thingy/plug.

lets put aside all the lies/rumor/b.s. that we as knowledgable people have had to deal with for the past several months regarding the development and mystery of this "glorious" product. i was talking to a good friend of mine (who happens to be very knowledgable with rx-7s and most anything automotive) about how this might work. he said, "when 1st gens were the racers choice (meaning, what was available as far as rx7s go), running ONLY leading sparkplugs was ideal because of the use of carburetors and the difference in the generations altogether." he had heard that by taking the trailing plugs away from a 3rd gen you would lose "25% peak horsepower". this lead him to believe that there was some kind of a design change in the engine as well as a change in the use of the trailing plugs. yes, they do help with emissions, but they mustve developed some sort of use for the trailing plugs due to the oddly shaped combustion chamber. . . the way the rotor moves. . . and that leads to the way the flame front moves. its obvious that there is SOME reason we have two plugs per rotor on all of our generations in the states.

our conversation developed into me telling him what this product does. i told him that it allows more boost to be introduced, lower octane levels on fuels to be ingested, and lower afrs. i also told him that there MAY be consequences for this product. . . which are. . . HEAT!!!! THE MAIN KILLER OF ROTARY ENGINES. . . most everyone knows this. its not detonation. . . why??? cause the tuners have FIGURED OUT how to get around that. heat is why most turbo rotary owners know about turbo efficiency levels, radiator upgrades, radiator hose upgrades, coolant temp gauges, fan mods, new fans, evans npg, radiator ducting, etc. . . just to name a few. this raised my question of WORTH of this product. why on earth would anybody want to perform a mod that would SIGNIFICANTLY RAISE temperature levels inside their rotary engine? the obvious answer that they have given us is that you can run more boost with this mod. well, to any average joe schmoe that means more horsepower!!!! WOOHOO!!!!! evidently, this is wrong. the cars with this product are having to run more boost to reach the horsepower that they were prior to having the mod (if they were tuned correctly at that time).

so what IS the advantage to running this mod? so far i know that i can run lower octane (big whoop), higher boost levels, and lower AFR's. . . and the GRAND PRIZE for doing so is. . . the greater chance of squashing rotorfaces and overheating the engine. . . it sounds to me like this devices name needs to be changed from the "anti-detonation device" to the "glorified engine replacement" mod.

so. . . to the makers. . . WHAT IS THE GAIN? there is too much hoopla about a product that has no proof of worth to the "betterment" of the rotary community. i dont see why i would care to install something on my car that is gonna FORCE me to run my car harder to reach the level of performance it was at PRIOR to the mod?

again, WHAT. . . IS. . . THE. . . GAIN?

paul

p.s. does anybody else feel cheated?

DjRannyKan

Well the device its self will not generate more heat it is the lower afr's. I havent figured out if i like the product yet. . Where i live they have em. laws so if this would make me fail i would not buy this product.

rynberg

You bring up many good points. After all, how many people suffer blown apex seals vs bad coolant seals? Water injection costs less than the anti-det "device" and lowers combustion temps and reduces the chances of detonation. Hmm.....

Not only that, but consider drivability and fuel mileage decreases. Also, who's tuning the PFC to work with the device.....

rotorbrain

it IS the device. . . the reason: in order to run this device you HAVE to run lower afrs. . . if you didnt. . . it would just flood out the engine. . . not enough spark. this brings me to another point. the reason that they talk about running lower octane fuels is (my own personal reasoning) because of the faster burn of 87 and such. maybe the different type of ignition timing is the reason or the fact that there is only one spark plug doing the work that normally takes two is part of it. maybe by running lower octane fuels they can effectively burn more fuel with this device.

paul

DjRannyKan

ahh.. i must have missunderstud the device then. it makes more sence now, thats for telling me that about not enought spark and disregard me last post. (spelling is horrable.)

c00lduke

I Agree as far that heat will be a problem but i often feel that many of us over enginered our cooling systems to a point that extra might not be as bad as everyone says. How many modified FDs(probably only people that would use teh plugs) see engine temps that are normal or even hot. I know that i dont. I feel that this product combined with a dual oil coolers, upgraded radiator, proper ducting, and a waterinjection system would make for a very cool running reliable beast. These are more hopes then anything but i'm still wishing for the best. PLus now that they lowered the price to 150 it is still a little more then 2 spark plugs would cost but alot less then the original price or a installed water injection system.

~Luke

rynberg

Luke,

I can't say everything that I may know (oh no, now I sound like Batman ). I strongly suggest you simply unplug your trailing coils -- IT DOES THE EXACT SAME THING. Unplug them as a test for a week and check your drivability, low-end power, and gas mileage. You may find that you don't want to spend $150.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

Just unplugging stuff is not going to work. If you are running a Power FC there are other changes that need to be made.

Jason

rynberg

Yes, unplugging the trailing coils will do the EXACT same thing as installing those plugs. And I'm well aware that changes need to be made in the PFC...but that info isn't being provided. There's a reason KD Rotary charges what they do to install this "device", folks, it's called tuning.

Rhode_Dog

i remember reading a while back that the users of this device were seeing much higher Torque nubers, much sooner in the powerband? Or did i read wrong?

artguy

steve kan told me the same thing today on the phone in regards to unplugging the trailing coils...he also said we might as well just to run a realllly wide split.

there is no substitute for great tuning...as we all know.

personally, I just went with water injection. Tuning is Friday. I would be smart, I feel, to go with proven methods when I have spent so much money.

as far as avoiding costs for water injection....i think we have all learned that ya get what you pay for and that you cant skimp on doing things right when it comes to this vehicle.

Kevin T. Wyum

Just an FYI, the speed of the "flame front" is essentially identical in all automotive fuels. Octane is a measure of resistance to preignition, nothing else. What you might be thinking of is the distillation curve, how evenly the fuel evaporates. Race gas tends to have a very smooth curve missing some of the lighter elements, meaning even portions of the fuel tend to evaporate over the total range of evaporation instead of peaky spurts found in cheaper gas.

On a side note I must say how well my lawn mower and snow blower run on VP C16. I had a half full 55gal drum when I last had the car out that I've been burning up in my yard equipment : )


Kevin T. Wyum

cpa7man

iTrader: (2)

It would be great if Steve Kan or someone who has nothing to gain financially from this product would do a technical write up and test of the product. I agree with Paul, all the hype and for what?

moehler

iTrader: (12)

It seams that detonation is no longer the enemy that it once was when people were first learning how to tune and mod these cars. If someone wants a xxx hp rx7 (within reason), there are time proven mods that can get you there. With the proper tuning there should be little fear of detonation. In terms of my engine failing, I fear coolant seals failing, or just wearing down the apex seals over time much more than detonation.

My point is that this "device" (aka ripoff. I know... don't go there ) will hopefully offer the possibility of more horspower (leaner afr's) and cheaper gas costs at the same level of reliability as the time proven mods we all use. However, as rotorbrain pointed out, it already seams that there may be significant disadvantages (heat, and loss of power from only one plug per housing) that outweigh the "positives" (that have yet to be proved )

rynberg

Steve's too busy working on cars and tuning to test it, you know, actually doing USEFUL things for the FD community....

cpa7man

iTrader: (2)

Your very right there. I like the emphasis on USEFUL!

Ingraham

Well I've read all the post on this "device" and I have decided I'm gonna buy it.



Water Injection that is

Jason

iTrader: (5)

I should have these plugs tomorrow and will be testing them this weekend. I will post my findings with pictures and dyno graphs.

Jason

Kento

Are you talking about pump fuels? I was under the impression that the tetraethyl lead in leaded race fuels slowed the flame front propagation, which required adjustments in ignition timing to compensate. On this same note, don't some of the oxygenates in unleaded racing fuels help to speed up the burn rate by virtue of their added oxygen atoms to the combustion chamber mix?

Railgun

Not to be picky, but it measures it's ignition point [read:temp], not preignition.

c00lduke

I wouldnt want to use it without proper tuning. I dont see any adavntanges to using this or many other upgradeds without proper tuning. I would think a quick over all tune would be able to give a good impression to see if you just want to continue in that path. And if it is a path that is enjoyed then purchase the $150 plugs. The biggest thing about this I am hoping for is that it will raise the bar on what is streetable on RX-7s. IF you have to run 116 octane at all times that could present an issue filling out, not even mentioning a road trip to a majpr event. But you know more then me or many other people do on this board about these plugs but are limited to what you can say do to the NDA and i think that is crap. I'm really hoping that someday everyone can find out these secrects that are still being kept and i can only asume they are bad due to the fact that since the product has been released, any other info that is being held back has to be bad news for the company.

~Luke

zkeller

iTrader: (47)

Who sells water injection setups?

zkeller

iTrader: (47)

The lower Octane should increase the torque numbers also, and keep the engine cleaner.

c00lduke

I'm just wondering how lower octnace incrases torque? I've not heard this and was just wondering if you had more info.

SPOautos

Its possible that the egt's are just higher due to all the fuel not burning properly and it burning in the dp. Similar to what would happen is you retarded the crap out of your timing and didnt burn all the fuel.

STEPHEN