patman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for all the clarification, you are obviously very knowledgeable about this stuff!

One thing I do see here is that Mazda has already done staged intake ports and staged runner length, but the only thing required to take that to the same level as VVT is a linear actuation rather than switched, which really should not be a huge engineering challenge.

RE Stratified rotary engines, I have considerable experience here in terms of performance, and I can tell you that they are capable of smooth and optimized operation across the entire speed/load/temp curve. Unfortunately, none of my personal experience nor research that I have done involved emissions, so I have no idea what those effects are. It is worth pointing out that there is no reason you couldn't have the best of both worlds using multiple injectors.

Another thing I would really like to know is what you could do in terms of combustion recess geometry on a rotary. LDR vs MDR is only the tip of the iceberg, what about specifically shaped geometry like a modern diesel piston?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

What the FRS/BRZ lacks (and needs) is a halo car and possibly a name, like Rx-7, Supra, Z, etc. If a 300hp version of the FRS/BRZ was available, the 200hp model would sell significantly more than it does now.

I believe Subaru/Toyota don't want to sully the reliability of the BRZ/FRS by offering a turbo version.

Subaru WRXs and STis engines in my are are hands down the most unreliable engines I have ever seen. I think it is the poor gasoline available coupled with the low knock resistance of the engine design.

Friend1 buys brand new STi and in one auto-x season replaces the engine twice and turbo once under warranty. Ring lands.

Freind2 buys brand new STi and races 2 years auto-x, sells to friend3 who loses the engine after 1 season auto-x. Ring lands.

Friend4 buys used STi, loses engine in 1 season of auto-x. Ring lands.

Friend5 buys used wrx, loses engine in 1 season of auto-x, rebuilds sells to friend6. Ring lands.

Friends6 loses engine in a couple auto-x events and street driving. Ring lands.

Friend7 loses engine on 5th gear pull on freeway. Oil system.


Friend8 owns 5-10 STi swapped 1st and 2nd gens at any point and usually has 1 running. Ring lands usually.

My club is only 30-40 members, turbo Subarus are very popular here but we haven't had a single one last more than 3 seasons of auto-x.

Our last hillclimb event alone 3 of 5 turbo Subarus entered blew their engines! It was a nice cool year too.

/Subaru rant

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

It's a very risky proposition. To be successful, Mazda needs to slam dunk the enthusiast community. Power, handling, and appearance need to check most if not all of our boxes since we're their best ambassadors of the brand and rotary power. Reliability needs to be stellar out of the box, since most in our community will tinker, which will result in enough engine failures by itself. They need to offer a great warranty to overcome the concerns that some will have concerning an engine that's unfamiliar to them, and finally, they'll need to properly train their technical staff prior to product launch, since most if not all of their best rotary technicians have moved on to other things.

A lower risk approach would be to provide a Limited Edition of their newly redesigned MX-5 platform with a rotary engine to celebrate "50 years of the Rotary Engine." They could even call it the RX-5. Then, based on sales of that car, they may offer something down the road.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

That turbo Subaru story is a reminder that turbo rotaries aren't THAT unreliable for the power they make. It's just that they are different, so when something happens you can blame it on that difference. It's tough to blame failures on "piston motors".

Montego

iTrader: (1)

ZoomZoom,

Either you failed to follow my posts or you are still peeved at me for what I said about V8s in Rx-7s. Dude if it is the latter, I already said I was just pulling your leg and I even apologized. Just in case you missed it,

If it’s not the latter, then it would help tremendously if you actually took the time to read and understand someone’s posts before you spouted off. If you had actually taken the time then you would realize that I am all for sport cars in the street and therefore makes any point that you are trying to make for them rather silly.

Here let me break the events down for you:
• I claimed that I wanted a competitive RX-7 with enough HP to rival the same competitors that it did in the early 90’s. Now it is 2014 and those competitors have stepped up their game. Mazda hasn’t. So what does that mean? It means that I value sport cars and in fact I want more of a ‘sport car’ that was offered in 1992. Clear enough?

• ZDAN stated that “I don't frown on it, I just realize that for most people it's an utterly useless waste of money, or worse, totally dangerous. The kind of men who think they need 400-500hp in their street car are likely compensating for something. Maybe their mamas didn't love them enough.”

• That seemed rather hypocritical given that he so thoroughly enjoys his s2000. So for argument’s sake, I took HIS POINT OF VIEW and took it a step further. Think of it from the point of view of a soccer mom or a traffic cop if you may.

• Capt’n knit pick came in (you) completely missing the point, spouting points of view to someone that actually agrees with him. Ya…

Really dude? That’s way too easy to respond right back at you since IMO you do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to being an enthusiast of this car. So I am gonna let you have that one based on that I ruffled your feathers that one time I will say this though; I have owned my FD since 1998 and I have never sold it, gave up on it, nor traded it for something else.

Read bullet points please…

Well no ****…

This isn’t even worth responding .


Are we clear now or do you still have some obscure point that you would like to argue with me about?



Sometimes one has to be difficult to bring the ‘realness’ out of people. I really don’t care for your all your little jabs and explanations on what responsive is and what not. My real intent was to have you fess up on your real driving habits. Now that you stated that you don’t obey all traffic laws and actually drive faster on the street than most people, where do you get off making these claims:

Hypocritical at best. Given that you actually have a little fun with your car on the street, I don’t know why you think that your opinion sets the bar on how much HP a street car should have. Or that ‘only you’ have the ability to asses a situation and deem what is safe behavior. I am here to tell you that you are not the only one with those abilities and with that said, it is my prerogative to want a higher hp RX-7 and drive it as I see in a safe manner without being judged by some guy who is no angel himself.

Good day sir.

ZDan

To me, a 250hp/2600 lb. rwd sports car with 50/50 or better weight distribution would be FAR from "lame", it would absolutely be the coolest car in the U.S. market!

If I had to have a brand new DD car now at less than ~$50k, could have anything below that price, with resale value taken out of the equation (i.e., I couldn't just turn around and sell it for profit), the only cars I'd be considering would be the Miata and the FR-S/BRZ.

To *me*, the BEST sports cars are small and simple, inherently somewhat "cheap". I don't see that as being a bad thing at all!

God save us from the seemingly never-ending trend to luxify sports cars! It turned the absolutely wonderful 240Z into the heavy-as-a-corvette bloated 370Z

To *me*, 3400/3600/3800+ lb. "sports" and "sporty" cars are LAME, and the Miata and FR-S/BRZ are pretty damn cool.

You guys want Corvette/Boss302 Mustang performance, guess what, your needs are already being served!

What's missing is a good minimalist rwd lightweight sports car with good power/weight that doesn't cost a fortune.

I think I know the answer, but have to ask, given these two options, which would you prefer to happen:
1. Mazda introduces your new lightweight 350-400hp RX-7, along with a less-expensive 250hp model
2. There is no new RX-7

t-von

iTrader: (8)

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I want a car that can run with modern hardware on track, even if it accomplishes it a different way. That's just not getting done with 250hp. The Exige is 2000 lbs and 260 hp and I smoke those things.

So why not buy a Miata or BRZ? New Miata will be 200 hp, and under 2600 lbs. You're just about there there.

I'd rather #1 obviously, but why come up with a new model for the 250 hp version? Slap a rotary in a Miata, call it the RX5 Miata, and be done with it.

ZDan

??? My S2000 has about 235hp (and I only *very* rarely use more than 150 of that), a far cry from 400-500hp!

You specifically asked for me to explain why I drive an S2000 instead of a Prius for normal street driving. So I did.

It is possible to drive on the street at 5-10 over the limit without driving like an ***, and without using more than 150hp. I'm almost never in VTEC on the street, and never at all on town/city streets. Absolutely no need. Putting down 400-500hp in town, that's pretty much d-bag behavior...

The point that I was making was that I find it FUN to drive the S2000 on the street, without going anywhere near its limits. Basically, driving NORMALLY, not making banzai acceleration runs, not making abrupt herky-jerky lane changes, not being an ***. The car is fun to drive, even at 1-3/10ths.

Driving 5-10 over the limit isn't a sin as far as I'm concerned, though it is technically illegal. You are more likely to be a nuisance to other drivers *and* to catch the eye of the police if you drive precisely the speed limit rather than somewhat over it.

I make it a point to be courteous and predictable while driving on the street. Clean record for over a decade now...

I want a higher-hp RX-7 as well, because I know I'll be tracking it. But if it were to ONLY be a street car, 250hp would be more than enough for me.

Good day to you as well

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

so a 250/2600 RX-7 is lame but a 250/2600 miata is awesome?

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Exactly For the miata that is an accomplishment. For the successor to the FD 20 years later that is an embarrassment.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

The s2k is the exact car you describe, no wonder you are thrilled with it. Most of us want more which is why the S2k, the BRZ, the miata etc.............will have to evolve in order to sell and by evolve I mean catch up to the other sports cars both figuratively and literally that are on the market.

Do I want to own the boss mustang, NO, but given everything else on the market that's the 1st place I'd begin to look for a fast fun economical sports car. The miata and BRZ wouldn't even begin to fill my performance hunger. Again the S2k is a fun little car but doesn't come close to comparing to a moderately modded FD. The guys with completely gutted, caged, modded out the buttocks S2k race cars run 1.22 laps at summit point. A stock FD will put down a 1.26.

More importantly though there's no way I'm writing a fat check and paying for taxes and ins on car that I don't track (something that's nimble/lightweight to go get groceries in) which is basically the only place I can really enjoy or have a love affair with my car.

I DON'T WANT A MUSTANG, CORVETTE, 997 GT3, 996 GT3 ETC......

I WANT A LIGHT WEIGHT 350 TO 450 FAST, BEAUTIFUL, FUN SPORTS CAR!!!!!!!!

I don't want an s2k and I DAMN SURE don't want one in 2 years when most every sports car worth a sh#t in this country will be 8 to 1 or better power weight ratio.

DAMN IT, keep your effing S2k but that car wasn't satisfying to me back in 2002. CHRIST almighty

Sorry I got a little fired up :p

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

This.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

^

MisterX

Compete with FRSs/BRZs? No, it's time to compete with this:
Toyota Applies To US Patent And Trademark Office To Revive The Supra Name, Could A New Toyota Supra Be Near? | Reviews | Prices | Australian specifications

Say it'll weigh 3500+, that leaves Mazda a nice niche for a 3 rotor 7 to undercut its curb weight severely (as they did with the FD). And, by putting a blower on the 1.8X or 2.4x they'll be able to somewhat match the Supra's power, too, thereby possibly destroying it in power to weight ratio.

Bwarrrrrp

Unlikely. It seems the new engine is rather different. I'm talking completely stock, taking 12-15 psi pump gas without blinking. If the claimed 12:1 compression ratio is being completely truthful, I'll give the engineer at subaru in charge of that piece of brilliance a rim job.

ZDan

On the STREET.

"Evolution" of sports cars usually means piling on a ton of mass. A lot of Porsche purists prefer the old "keep it simple, keep is small, keep it LIGHTWEIGHT" approach of yesteryear to todays "Corvettified" Porsches.

Most Miata guys do not want it to "catch up" with bigger, heavier, more expensive cars, and I don't either. 240Z -> 370Z = evolution I can do without...

$50k is "economical" to you?!

Personally, if I was spending that kinda jack on a track car, it would not have fenders. It would be cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate, and it would destroy any Boss Mustang. Costs a fair amount of coin to make pigs fly...

I *have* to drive a car on the street. To do so in the S2000 is at least somewhat "fun". Driving a modern mustang on the street is just a boring chore. All the charm of a taxicab in street driving. A trackable one would just be a stiff-riding taxicab.

I like to go fast on the racetrack (hence 500+hp FD), but I also like to enjoy (as much as possible anyway) driving on the street. I just don't get the idea I keep seeing repeated that sports car attributes "don't matter" on the street. They do to me!
Aside: Wife and I swapped cars yesterday, she went to work in the S2k, I took her '05 mazda3 (mostly stock except for recent KYB struts/shocks and 17x7.5 wheels with 225/45-17 tires). That 3 is one of the most fun fwd modern (i.e., kinda big/heavy) econoboxes I've ever driven. For what it is, I think it's a very enjoyable car to drive around town. On the "real-world" normal-driving fun-o-meter, it's probably 1/2 to 2/3 of the way between Dad's Prius and my S2000.
Anyway, I asked her how my car was for her commute (no other prompting, just seeing if it did anything funny or if the CEL came on), and her response was: "I forgot how much fun your car is to drive!"

Case in point: it is possible to have varying levels of "fun" even driving in commuting traffic to work in a big city.

For my dedicated STREET car, power beyond 240 or even 200hp doesn't necessarily add to the real-world enjoyability of a car.

You have a better shot of getting such a new RX-7 if you accept smallness and lightness as priorities over horsepower. If they build it to run with Corvettes, it will be well over 3000 lb. If they keep it simple, keep it small, it will stand a chance of being reasonably lightweight.

It would be a hell of a lot easier to add 100hp to a 2600 lb. 250hp RX-7 than it would be to remove 400 lb. from a "Corvettified" Rx-7.

I've kept it so far, haven't I? But obviously I want/need a faster car for the track.

I hope that sports car evolution changes and focuses more on light weight than on more horsepower.

Track car implies modified. It's easier to modify to get way more power than it is to modify to get way less weight.

But *anyway*, for a street/track car, I want the same car you guys want. 2600 lb., 350-400hp.
For a STREET car, 2600 lb. 250hp is fine with me.

IF they aim for 350-400hp and Corvette level Nurburgring/VIR lap times, IMO you can kiss 2600 lb. goodbye. It's going to become a bigger/heavier supercar more like the Corvette.

IF, however, they aim for 250hp and keep it simple let it be an RX-7 and forget about the Corvette, then 2600 lb. is easily attainable. And I can add 100-200hp later. Bliss...

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

My street car IS my track car. 250 hp is boring both places.


Dude. This is a FALSE DILEMMA.

You do NOT need to "accept" largeness and heaviness or complexity for a lousy 350 hp. 350 hp doesn't even "run with Corvettes" anymore. The new Z06 makes over 600 hp. 350 is just in the modern ballpark of "fast".

Let's say it again, together: You do not need to accept largeness, heaviness, or complexity to prioritize a reasonable amount of horsepower.

You actually OWN a "corvettified RX7". It has 500 hp. It weighs the same as my (or a stock) RX7. How come you didn't need to add 400 lbs to it?

HiWire

There has to be a happy rotary-powered medium between a Lotus Exige S and a Nissan 370Z. I hope Mazda finds it.

ZDan

In my experience, a street/track car can't be both a great street car and a great track car.

I have had street/track cars and dedicated street cars, and the dedicated street cars are much better on the street, street/track cars much better on the track but still too "street" compromised to be GREAT track cars.

For sure if you take a 2600 lb. 250hp minimalist car and add 100-150hp you don't necessarily end up adding more than 100-150 lb. (additional weight for another rotor and/or turbo plus bigger brakes plus bigger tires to handle the increased heat from the extra power and higher track speeds).

But if the target from the outset is Corvette performance and lap times around fast tracks, the "optimal" street car configuration is going to have a longer wheelbase and wider track vs. a sports car optimized for minimum size and weight. I don't think it's for no reason that the c7 has a 107" wheelbase and the 458 has a 104" wheelbase. Great for very high-speed track stability, not so great for feeling small/lightweight/sporty. Also, at the higher overall price point, you can be sure they will feel the need to luxify the car somewhat because rich people have to be coddled.

My impression remains that if Corvette performance is the target, you can expect a longer, wider, and heavier car than if they just try to do a minimalist sports car with Cayman-Cayman S performance.

Because it doesn't have to meet circa 2014 manufacturer's or government's standards for what they would require in a 500+hp street car, or customer requirements for a new $50k vehicle. It's not a fully-developed and -engineered vehicle, nor was it developed to appeal to people who can afford a new $50k car.

Personally, I would like to see a new car that splits the difference between my 500+hp 2850-empty 2980-full-tank FD and my old 275-300hp 2300-empty 2400-full-tank 240Z.
That would be the 2600-lb. 350-400hp car we all want!
But I am afraid that a new mega-performing RX-7 would be more likely to fall midway between my FD and the C7 Corvette in terms of size and weight.

I would be more than thrilled to be proven wrong!

In reality, I don't expect that there will be a new RX-7 either way

We shall see...

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Yep lots of 997 GT3 guys have moved to all out 993 race cars but if you asked any of them which car is more fun to drive when setup properly etc.... they'd all say the more powerful heavier GT3. Most any 993 track rat would prefer to own (if they could justify the expense) a 997 or 996 GT3 track car despite the weight because it's more fun to drive and that's what it's all about.

Who does want a heavier sports car, my point is that everyone I know wants a light weight high power car and a 10 to 1 powered car is no longer competing with the 7 and 8 to 1 powered cars in either the fun or performance factor. The boss mustang and ZR1, corvette.....(the corvette is the bargain of the century the price has stayed fairly flat and the performance has gone through the roof and the overall car keeps getting better and better) are way more fun than most cars to track and aren't that expensive but they are HEAVY, these are great cars and likely twice as fun as an S2k to track/drive etc...... The boss cost 50k the S2K cost 44k we know which one you would buy but most everyone else is going to buy the mustang including me and it's not even a contest and Randy Pobst would likely say the same thing. Check this track comparison of the ZL1 and Boss:
Umm YES!!!! Considering I paid 28k for a used S2k back in 2002 75k for badass new sports car is a deal to me. A gallon of milk cost over 4 bucks today. Once again we live in a very VERY good time for car enthusiast but it's missing the one thing I think we all want and that's a LIGHT WEIGHT powerful car. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I understand that you love your S2k for daily driving because you don't want to over power the little tires (no reason for big tires) it's light weight and nimble etc...etc... BUT to me even that car is way underpowered for an interesting commute when you are used to a modded FD that drives better, handles better, is lighter and has another 100 hp.

You already have 30k plus invested in your FD so I'm not buying that one. I'd absolutely have an all out track car if I was retired and didn't have a little girl but as it stands it makes no sense. I think we both realize the time and commitment involved with racing even an SM car and most any track car I'd be interested in is going to cost me 50k to either build or buy or a combination there of. Not to argue this one too much but even a bare bones atom (they cost 40 to 50k) isn't going to keep up with a moderately modded and lightened boss.

The 2013 mustang isn't the same as the 1983 mustang and I believe the 2015 mustang will really be a nice low cost sports car. If either of us could stomach owning a mustang (get over our biases) we would both likely be completely satisfied with a base model GT to run around town in.

Understood, my wife drives a mercury mariner and when she drives one of the FDs or the GT3 she is thrilled to say the least. Sports cars are fun which is why we own them and put up with all the inconveniences of owning one.

Absolutely, I love driving, and anyone who does can enjoy a sports car in most any condition other than stop and go traffic.

To me 100 HP makes a huge difference but I also am not afraid to admit that I go beyond the tires limit every day I drive which is why I don't have fat tires on my DD FD, I want to have fun. The GT3 isn't as fun because you have to be high in the power band (rev limiter to make decent power) or must be going too fast to have any fun not to mention the tires are huge so I must exceed the speed to add that slip or fun factor into the drive.

I don't want such an RX7, I have that RX7, just as you have that S2k and I'm also a frugal bastard so there is no way I'm spending even 35k for a new car that's less than what I have (slightly modded TT fd).

I don't want to mod the drive train in any way shape or form, I want factory power that challenges me as is with room for me to develop as time passes. I agree it would be easier to add 100 HP than loose 400lbs pounds but 400lbs is also unrealistic.

So do you want a track car or a new grocery getter I think you want a track car which is where you've invested thus far and I don't think you'd buy that 35k light weight sports car to shuttle around town any more than I would when you have that very car at pennies on the dollar.

YES, YES AND FAWKING YES!!!!!!!!!! to the weight and most cars have the power it's the weight that's killing them so I couldn't agree more.

No it's much easier to pull weight from an already powerful car (strip/add exhaust/seats/wheels/tires etc....) than add 100 to 200 to an under powered car if the goal is achieving a competitive power to weight because the reliability goes out the window at even 100 HP for most cars. I bet you could easily pull 200lbs from a boss mustang and now you have a 7.66 power to weight car and you would likely not spend that much doing it. Now try adding 100hp to your low powered NA rotary Rx7 or v4 lightweight car. The rx8 trans couldn't handle 50 much less 100 more HP. So you add 100 HP to your RX7 and now it needs a trans, a turbo, an intercooler, rad, oil coolers, brakes etc...etc.... That's not a road I want to go down. Take 200 pounds out of the boss and it needs nothing and it's now more reliable and you've spent 1/10 as much or even less. I'm not interested in buying a car and spending another 25k to build the car I want, once again I have that car.

YEP, but I'll be thrilled with a 2900 or even 3000lb car with 400 HP and lighten it up a bit.

I agree there will be some compromise but I'd rather compromise on weight than power and without getting into the triple digits $$$ a 400 HP car will likely be around 3000 pounds which I'll be more than happy with. It's still a 7.5 power to weight car and I will easily be able to take another 100 or 200 out of it.

I'm not interested in putting a v8 into the next RX7.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Why We Won't Get a Faster FR-S - News - Road & Track

Toyota/BRZ Sales suck. Biggest complaint? Lack of power. The obvious "fix" would be to add power, but as outlined, that' not so easy and cost prohibitive. Better get that number right the first time. Nobody is going to put up with the impracticality of a 2-seater sportscar that's slow anymore. They'll just get an EVO/STi

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Glad to see you've given up trying to sell that 250 HP 2600 pound RX7 cause nobody's buying that POS

The 350 to 400 3000 pound or less RX7 would sell. It must be 7 to 1 or better to be a flagship car and that's what the RX7 is.

For all those that want a 250 HP 10 to 1 car and there are a few if the price is right mazda should just have a broad selection of miatas and make one a hard top etc..... This sh#t isn't rocket science.

There are plenty of road going track cars (any well prepped 996 or 997 GT3) and Pete's car is that car minus AC. If you ever have a chance to drive his car I highly recommend it. Smooth throttle (torque everywhere), clutch not too stiff and easy to use, smooth susp, etc...etc.... Not crazy loud but will certainly get your attention and keep it LOL. Take it to the track and it's usually a top 10 fastest car (most of the faster cars are all out race cars) at any HPDE, including Chin, PCA etc.....at a BMW event it may be the fastest car on the track LOL. It's only 3 seconds off my all out track car FD and it will be faster this year (lost some weight).

Whether it's a GT3, a Z06, Viper or a GTR or in Pete's case a 20 year old FD you can have your cake and eat it to if you spend the $$$ and know what you are doing. For the record his car is more streetable than my GT3 and several seconds faster.

What I want, what you want and what Pete wants is his car in a new reliable NA form or a 400 HP car that weighs 2800lbs

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I have this sick feeling that next Supra will have the same LF-A inspired high revving 470hp V8 based of the Lexus Rc-F. If that happens, a minimalist 250hp Rx7 ain't gonna work. When it comes to sports cars, horsepower is the only thing that's selling these days.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

And none of us will buy it because it's 3500 plus pounds.

No thanks I'll buy a corvette, a mustang etc...etc.... in reality just keep tracking my FD.