The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
02-26-14, 04:12 PM
#1876
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One of my track instructors drove me for a few laps in his Miata. That thing turned in hard and fast. A properly set up Miata is pretty wicked in the corners. They'll have trouble on high-speed tracks without boost, though.
I'm pretty sure a bare-metal FD can be made to pull the same kind of Gs, given its fixed-roof chassis. There's no substitute for turbo doritos, properly tuned.
I'm pretty sure a bare-metal FD can be made to pull the same kind of Gs, given its fixed-roof chassis. There's no substitute for turbo doritos, properly tuned.
The FD pulls more Gs and is much quicker on any track or autocross stock for stock.
The fact that I have to even mention that is ridiculous.
GUYS, lets get off this whole miata thing. The two cars don't belong in the same league in any way shape or form.
02-26-14, 04:12 PM
#1877
Full Member
HAZUMI Sketch released ( Leaked )
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
02-26-14, 05:09 PM
#1878
Again no time to go in depth. Work is kicking my ***
So I'll agree that right at the apex the miata will be the faster car because of the angle thing but it's a lot slower going in and a lot slower finishing. So for maybe 100 feet it's the quicker car on a fairly tight corner and possibly faster on sweeper as well (at the apex) but not going in or coming out and likely slower the whole way through a big corner.
The track tightness isn't really relevant if the high HP car is driven properly it should still CRUSH the Miata because of the entry and exit speed and I think Pete has enough track experience to know when someone is in a fast miata vs putting around and plenty putt around even in the instructor group. When you are running his lap times at VIR in your car even with all the extra power you have you will be driving over the top of Miata's EVERYWHERE on the track and there will never be a time when one is on your back bumper PERIOD!!!!!!!
I'd also say this is true on that tight little S course at VIR that you drove, my car was running 1.16s at 300 HP, an extremely well driven SM car might run a 1.21. Here's an example from the N course with the THSCC of me driving around in the instructor group on bald tires with very little grip left in them. The majority of the cars are fully track prepped or race cars. Several E30 BMWs which are typically faster than SM cars etc.... With this group pretty much all the cars are road blocks. A well setup corvette is faster than my car. Any corvette having any trouble what so ever with an SM car on any track or autocross it's driver error not because the Miata corners faster, again it may be faster at the apex but from entry to exit it's not a remotely close race no matter how tight the corner is, which is why Pete hasn't seen a Miata on his back bumper in over a decade, ITS/SM or otherwise.
Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmNANLJ2yP0
02-26-14, 05:17 PM
#1879
GUYS, lets get off this whole miata thing. The two cars don't belong in the same league in any way shape or form.
The next RX-7 WILL be a Miata.
Mazda will either use the same chassis and make it more upscale heavier and have it slower than the new 2,400lb MX-5 like the RX-8 was to the NC MX-5 that shared a chassis.
OR
They will capitalize on the light weight rotary, fixed roof and more expensive components to make it lighter than 2,400lbs.
I really hope they do the later or it will be better to rotary swap MX-5s like in the days before the FD.
The next RX-7 WILL be a Miata.
Mazda will either use the same chassis and make it more upscale heavier and have it slower than the new 2,400lb MX-5 like the RX-8 was to the NC MX-5 that shared a chassis.
OR
They will capitalize on the light weight rotary, fixed roof and more expensive components to make it lighter than 2,400lbs.
I really hope they do the later or it will be better to rotary swap MX-5s like in the days before the FD.
02-26-14, 05:44 PM
#1880
I give you 9 minutes of a CSP Miata watching Z06 bumper. C Street Prepared is street class (full interior, no internal engine/head work).
Later the Z06 ran 4 seconds faster than the Miata with the husband driving of course, but the video show why great drivers love trolling on people in Miatas at tracks.
02-26-14, 05:47 PM
#1881
HAZUMI Sketch released ( Leaked )
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
I love Mazda's current styling.
I would gladly daily a rotary Mazda2 electric and race a new RX-7 if Mazda makes the right choices.
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
I love Mazda's current styling.
I would gladly daily a rotary Mazda2 electric and race a new RX-7 if Mazda makes the right choices.
02-26-14, 10:12 PM
#1883
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HAZUMI Sketch released ( Leaked )
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
Sketch of possible next-gen Mazda2 leaked | Driving
I can only assume the 7 will have similar styling.
If it's a twin rotor NA I'll be happy they made another RX but won't be a buyer from the dealer but possibly pick up a used one down the road to tool around in if it's a cool car.
02-26-14, 10:44 PM
#1884
http://www.miataturbo.net
Pretty much your source of truth when tracking a Miata na or boosted. Miatas start to eat drive trains at over 250 whp, not turbos.
I loved my NB, but it's no replacement for the FD except in stupid solid reliability.
As for fast Miatas, Emilio over at 949racing and Trackspeed Engineering campaign some pretty badass mx5s on the west coast Fritz.
02-27-14, 07:15 AM
#1885
Senior Member
So I'll agree that right at the apex the miata will be the faster car because of the angle thing but it's a lot slower going in and a lot slower finishing. So for maybe 100 feet it's the quicker car on a fairly tight corner and possibly faster on sweeper as well (at the apex) but not going in or coming out and likely slower the whole way through a big corner.
The track tightness isn't really relevant if the high HP car is driven properly it should still CRUSH the Miata because of the entry and exit speed
and I think Pete has enough track experience to know when someone is in a fast miata vs putting around and plenty putt around even in the instructor group.
When you are running his lap times at VIR in your car even with all the extra power you have you will be driving over the top of Miata's EVERYWHERE on the track and there will never be a time when one is on your back bumper PERIOD!!!!!!!
When you are running his lap times at VIR in your car even with all the extra power you have you will be driving over the top of Miata's EVERYWHERE on the track and there will never be a time when one is on your back bumper PERIOD!!!!!!!
Pete, how fast are the Miatas you run with at Watkins Glen? The fast ones in COM have run 2:13s there. Naturally aspirated, pump gas. One 1st-gen (surely no more than 140-150rwhp) and one 3rd-gen with a 2.5 bottom-end (maybe 175-185rwhp at most).
For relative comparison, the "fast" Corvettes in my club (C5 Z06s with no real power mods, maybe 400rwhp?) run 2:04s there.
I haven't run the 7 there yet. My best time-trial lap there was a 2:15.4 in my 238-255rwhp 2300 lb 240Z, but that was without 3rd gear! Climbing up out of "the toe" was agonizing in 4th
Worth noting that car didn't even have coilovers, just 160F/200R Suspension Techniques springs and Tokico Illuminas. Excuses...Curious, what's your best time at the Glen in your RX-7?
I'd also say this is true on that tight little S course at VIR that you drove, my car was running 1.16s at 300 HP, an extremely well driven SM car might run a 1.21.
I get the impression that when I said fast Miatas should have a faster *minimum* speed near the apex of lower speed corners, that some of you guys chose to hear it as me saying Miatas KILL RX-7s at the track!
But anyway, SM's aren't particularly fast Miatas in my experience. Limited to 205s, spec suspension, very low-powered engines. Purpose of the SM class spec isn't to be fast but to be competitive and cheap!
Any corvette having any trouble what so ever with an SM car on any track or autocross it's driver error not because the Miata corners faster, again it may be faster at the apex
02-27-14, 08:46 AM
#1886
Miatas love turbos and the real track rats use them it's also what the mazdaspeed Miata was
Miata Turbo Forum - Turbo Kitten is watching you test compression.
Pretty much your source of truth when tracking a Miata na or boosted. Miatas start to eat drive trains at over 250 whp, not turbos.
I loved my NB, but it's no replacement for the FD except in stupid solid reliability.
As for fast Miatas, Emilio over at 949racing and Trackspeed Engineering campaign some pretty badass mx5s on the west coast Fritz.
Miata Turbo Forum - Turbo Kitten is watching you test compression.
Pretty much your source of truth when tracking a Miata na or boosted. Miatas start to eat drive trains at over 250 whp, not turbos.
I loved my NB, but it's no replacement for the FD except in stupid solid reliability.
As for fast Miatas, Emilio over at 949racing and Trackspeed Engineering campaign some pretty badass mx5s on the west coast Fritz.
We were at a dyno , and I dont remember which class it was he was in ITA? basically it was about power to weight ratio so he was tunning to match the power to weight of his class . and he said that he could achieve that power more reliably with a supercharger . then with a turbo since alot of other miata in his class were regularly down because of warped manifolds .
as for the drivetrain. the limiting factor is the 5 speed transmission on the 1.8's , but the 6 speed from the special editions take about 350 ? I've been out of the miata game for a couple years now.
The LSD on the early 1.6 miatas craps out much earlier , But the 99's torsen is just like the diff on the RX7 aslong as you dont get wheelhop it will hold . and I believe the 2002? or 2003? lsd's were clutch , dont remember
they are great cars . fun cars . But even boosted I still take my FD .
ALSO , TURN in in the FD is better then the miata . lol
02-27-14, 09:43 AM
#1887
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Miatas love turbos and the real track rats use them it's also what the mazdaspeed Miata was
Miata Turbo Forum - Turbo Kitten is watching you test compression.
Pretty much your source of truth when tracking a Miata na or boosted. Miatas start to eat drive trains at over 250 whp, not turbos.
I loved my NB, but it's no replacement for the FD except in stupid solid reliability.
As for fast Miatas, Emilio over at 949racing and Trackspeed Engineering campaign some pretty badass mx5s on the west coast Fritz.
Miata Turbo Forum - Turbo Kitten is watching you test compression.
Pretty much your source of truth when tracking a Miata na or boosted. Miatas start to eat drive trains at over 250 whp, not turbos.
I loved my NB, but it's no replacement for the FD except in stupid solid reliability.
As for fast Miatas, Emilio over at 949racing and Trackspeed Engineering campaign some pretty badass mx5s on the west coast Fritz.
Top 25 Laguna Seca Lap Times
1:20.546 (Connor De Phillippi/Formula Mazda/Goodyear Slicks/230whp/1350lbs w/driver; Sept '11)
1:27.377 (Robbie Montinola; Reynard Dodge; Michelin Slick; 260hp/~1300lbs; Jun 03)
1:29.001 (Billy Johnson; Turner Motorsport BMW M3 GT; Continental Slick; ~500hp/~2800lbs; Sept 13)
1:30.810 (Mike Hedlund; '09 Porsche GT3 Cup; Yokohama Slicks; 360whp/2810lbs w/driver; Sept. '11; Sheet)
1:33.613 (Bill Brinkop; 99 corvette; Hoosier A6; 394whp/3275lbs w/driver; July 13
1:33.656 (Andy Kern; Lotus 211; Yoko A005/S01; 270whp/1820lbs w/driver; June 13; Video)
1:35.49 (Jack Fried; Lotus 211; Yoko A005/S01; 250whp/1810lbs w/driver; June 13; VIDEO)
1:36.242 (Andrew Kidd; 94 Trackspeed Engineering Miata; C71; 300whp/~2100lbs; Jul 09; Sheet)
1:36.345 (Gordon Jennings; 94 Miata; C71; 400whp/2360lb w/driver; June 11)
1:36.878 (Sean MacKenzie; 06 Evo MR; BFG R1; 370whp/3350lbs w/driver; Jul 09 ; Sheet)
1:37.292 (Nick Buchanan; 94 Miata; C71; 300whp/~2100lbs; Jul 10)
1:38.104 (Brent Bauman; 07 Exige S; Yok Slicks; 240whp/~2100lbs w/driver; Jul 09)
1:38.6xx (Robbie Montinola; Formula Skip Barber; Michelin Slick; 130hp/~1400lbs; Nov)
1:39 (passmenow, 88 IMSA GTO Camaro, GY slicks, 500rwhp/2700lbs w/o driver, 6/13)
1:40.021 (John Cherniack; 99 996spec; R6; ~255whp/2900lbs w/driver; Aug 09; sheet)
1:40.128 (Chris Ronson Jr.; '02 Z06 T1; A6; 350whp/3230lbs w/driver; Jun 10; Sheet)
1:40.606 (Jim Tway; 02 S2k; NT01; ~220whp/~2700lbs w/driver; Jul 10)
1:40.643 (Ryan Rush; '91 Acura NSX; NT01; 266whp/3020lbs w/driver; Aug, 2011)
1:41.30x (William chen; 99 Miata; NT01; 230whp/2400lbs; Apr 10)
1:41.342 (Michael Tsay; 00 S2k; NT01; ~200whp/~2850lbs w/driver; Jul 10)
1:41.450 (Jeff Tyler; BMW 335i 4-door, PSC, 380whp/3600lb, Feb 10; Video)
1:41.47x (Charles Ng; 99 Miata; A6; 180whp/2400lbs w/driver; Mar 09; Video)
1:41.5xx (Emilio Cervantes; 99 Miata Rotrex; A6; 210whp/2250lbs; Mar 09)
1:41.879 (Luc Noel; 69 Mustang Convertible; BFGR1; 600hp/3600lbs; Month?/99)
1:41.915 (Michael Sorbian; 04 M3 6MT; BFG R1; 300whp/3200lbs; Apr 08; Sheet)
Again for a list of what stock cars are doing at Laguna check the list below and notice the miata's 1.36 is no joke.
Laguna Seca lap records - FastestLaps.com
Truer words have never been spoken.
02-27-14, 10:06 AM
#1889
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I never said or meant to imply that it would be faster anywhere else but near the apex of lower-speed corners. But of course deep in the braking zone (basically from the point where the Miata starts braking), speeds will be similar there as well.
I never suggested otherwise. NHMS chicane-chicane is very much a tight "Miata track", and the FAST Miatae in my club are 4 seconds off the pace of the fast Corvettes (1:18 flat vs. just under 1:14).
If you happen to catch a well-prepped and well-driven Miata right at the end of a straightaway and he points you by in the braking zone out of courtesy, he can and should be on your tail up to your apex. There's no reason he shouldn't be.
Pete, how fast are the Miatas you run with at Watkins Glen? The fast ones in COM have run 2:13s there. Naturally aspirated, pump gas. One 1st-gen (surely no more than 140-150rwhp) and one 3rd-gen with a 2.5 bottom-end (maybe 175-185rwhp at most).
For relative comparison, the "fast" Corvettes in my club (C5 Z06s with no real power mods, maybe 400rwhp?) run 2:04s there.
I haven't run the 7 there yet. My best time-trial lap there was a 2:15.4 in my 238-255rwhp 2300 lb 240Z, but that was without 3rd gear! Climbing up out of "the toe" was agonizing in 4th Worth noting that car didn't even have coilovers, just 160F/200R Suspension Techniques springs and Tokico Illuminas. Excuses...
Curious, what's your best time at the Glen in your RX-7?
OK, that makes sense. Again, I never said or suggested that faster NA Miatas should be anything like as fast around even a tight track vs. a 8-9 lb/hp RX-7!
I get the impression that when I said fast Miatas should have a faster *minimum* speed near the apex of lower speed corners, that some of you guys chose to hear it as me saying Miatas KILL RX-7s at the track!
But anyway, SM's aren't particularly fast Miatas in my experience. Limited to 205s, spec suspension, very low-powered engines. Purpose of the SM class spec isn't to be fast but to be competitive and cheap!
Once more, that's all I ever said!
I never suggested otherwise. NHMS chicane-chicane is very much a tight "Miata track", and the FAST Miatae in my club are 4 seconds off the pace of the fast Corvettes (1:18 flat vs. just under 1:14).
If you happen to catch a well-prepped and well-driven Miata right at the end of a straightaway and he points you by in the braking zone out of courtesy, he can and should be on your tail up to your apex. There's no reason he shouldn't be.
Pete, how fast are the Miatas you run with at Watkins Glen? The fast ones in COM have run 2:13s there. Naturally aspirated, pump gas. One 1st-gen (surely no more than 140-150rwhp) and one 3rd-gen with a 2.5 bottom-end (maybe 175-185rwhp at most).
For relative comparison, the "fast" Corvettes in my club (C5 Z06s with no real power mods, maybe 400rwhp?) run 2:04s there.
I haven't run the 7 there yet. My best time-trial lap there was a 2:15.4 in my 238-255rwhp 2300 lb 240Z, but that was without 3rd gear! Climbing up out of "the toe" was agonizing in 4th
Worth noting that car didn't even have coilovers, just 160F/200R Suspension Techniques springs and Tokico Illuminas. Excuses...Curious, what's your best time at the Glen in your RX-7?
OK, that makes sense. Again, I never said or suggested that faster NA Miatas should be anything like as fast around even a tight track vs. a 8-9 lb/hp RX-7!
I get the impression that when I said fast Miatas should have a faster *minimum* speed near the apex of lower speed corners, that some of you guys chose to hear it as me saying Miatas KILL RX-7s at the track!
But anyway, SM's aren't particularly fast Miatas in my experience. Limited to 205s, spec suspension, very low-powered engines. Purpose of the SM class spec isn't to be fast but to be competitive and cheap!
Once more, that's all I ever said!
You said a little more than just at the apex but no worries we agree on the apex/angle thing
In my experience and I'm sure Pete's as well the only fast Miata's we encounter are some variety of SM, ITS or some form of race car miata, the majority of street miatas are usually babied (drive at 7/10nths) even in the instructor group and they are carrying more weight.
I've seen some turboed miata's and supercharged miatas etc... but typically an ITS miata will be the faster car than even those.
However it does appear there are some very fast miatas in CA but it's all relative modify a c5 or c6 and those same miatas again become the slow car.
I guess what I'm trying to say is a miata is a good choice to have some fun in, a corvette is a good choice to go fast in but the FD is a good choice to both go fast and have fun
With that said I'll repeat I'll have more fun going fast in a corvette than I would going slow in a miata and I believe most experienced drivers would feel the same way.
02-27-14, 04:27 PM
#1892
^^^^
True that—especially compared to a lot of modern designs which seem very trendy and less timeless—everything's angry and full of creases, strakes, strange shapes and fussy lines.
I'd compare the FD design with the Lamborghini Miura or the original 911.
True that—especially compared to a lot of modern designs which seem very trendy and less timeless—everything's angry and full of creases, strakes, strange shapes and fussy lines.
I'd compare the FD design with the Lamborghini Miura or the original 911.
02-27-14, 07:22 PM
#1895
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The S2k has the #s so that's likely not an accurate result but it's a tight race for sure.
02-28-14, 08:43 AM
#1898
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I wonder if Mazda thinks another 1st gen is the way to go...
If Toyota brings back something like the Supra and Mazda doesn't have an answer then Toyota will have no real Japanese competition and will be swimming in sales.
If Toyota brings back something like the Supra and Mazda doesn't have an answer then Toyota will have no real Japanese competition and will be swimming in sales.
