The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
02-17-14, 11:16 AM
#1701
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this is true. FUN is ephemeral though, the stock FD is really fun, nothing in the universe is like it, however adding a big single and doubling the HP, usually makes it LESS fun. the FD in the FD is because you get the second turbo kick, not because its fast.
i also agree the faster you go, the scarier it gets, my friend has a 340hp miata, and that thing is a little past crazy.
although the most exciting car i've ever driven was an Rx3, mild 13B, its like a danish cookie tin with 200hp, the cookie tin has better brakes, its EXCITING.
we ran the WERC endurance race this weekend, 2 hours. our little integra (and another honda)was up against the factory Mazda team, which were racing the DIESEL 6's.
somehow the 2015 Mazda is in the SAME CLASS with a 20 year old honda. we qualified on the pole, they won because we had to stop for gas, and they didn't.
so Mazda makes sedans (they look great as race cars), and they do have competition, but its not Rx7 vs vette, its family sedan vs 20 year old econobox....
i also agree the faster you go, the scarier it gets, my friend has a 340hp miata, and that thing is a little past crazy.
although the most exciting car i've ever driven was an Rx3, mild 13B, its like a danish cookie tin with 200hp, the cookie tin has better brakes, its EXCITING.
somehow the 2015 Mazda is in the SAME CLASS with a 20 year old honda. we qualified on the pole, they won because we had to stop for gas, and they didn't.
so Mazda makes sedans (they look great as race cars), and they do have competition, but its not Rx7 vs vette, its family sedan vs 20 year old econobox....
02-17-14, 11:46 AM
#1702
Thank you for answering. So I will answer you now. The answer is no not really. Responsiveness? Please but I'm driving like a normal human being? WTF do I need a car to be responsive about? Nothing that's what. Because the fact is no one needs any sport car attributes for street cars. No one.
In fact handling and especially braking are fantastic safety features that sports cars excell. I am not trying to prove you wrong here for the sake of proving what you are saying is wrong but here is my experience on the matter.
When I first started tracking my cars I realized a few things that translated back to driving on the road. The guys who track their cars will understand what I am saying.
Do a driving school or track day in the rain. You are going to build an intimate relationship with how the car will handle at the limits in the rain. You will also sharpen your skills at getting the car back when it gets out of sorts.
Dry or rain its the same experience but what you will realize is the cars with the bigger brakes and light weight chassis with performance suspension allows you shorter stopping distances, better accident avoidance and better control at higher speeds during emergency maneuvering.
These attributes are indeed valuable on your daily commute.
Even if you track a Prius you are probably better at avoiding and reacting to mishaps on your daily drive. Skills learned on the track improve your reaction ability and proper handling to avoid incidents on the street no matter the car. It's just an S2000 and its sports car attributes makes it more likely to be able to handle such incidents given the skills to do so.
02-17-14, 12:25 PM
#1703
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I know you are trying to make a point here but you need to be more careful about your absolute's lol.
In fact handling and especially braking are fantastic safety features that sports cars excell. I am not trying to prove you wrong here for the sake of proving what you are saying is wrong but here is my experience on the matter.
When I first started tracking my cars I realized a few things that translated back to driving on the road. The guys who track their cars will understand what I am saying.
Do a driving school or track day in the rain. You are going to build an intimate relationship with how the car will handle at the limits in the rain. You will also sharpen your skills at getting the car back when it gets out of sorts.
Dry or rain its the same experience but what you will realize is the cars with the bigger brakes and light weight chassis with performance suspension allows you shorter stopping distances, better accident avoidance and better control at higher speeds during emergency maneuvering.
These attributes are indeed valuable on your daily commute.
Even if you track a Prius you are probably better at avoiding and reacting to mishaps on your daily drive. Skills learned on the track improve your reaction ability and proper handling to avoid incidents on the street no matter the car. It's just an S2000 and its sports car attributes makes it more likely to be able to handle such incidents given the skills to do so.
In fact handling and especially braking are fantastic safety features that sports cars excell. I am not trying to prove you wrong here for the sake of proving what you are saying is wrong but here is my experience on the matter.
When I first started tracking my cars I realized a few things that translated back to driving on the road. The guys who track their cars will understand what I am saying.
Do a driving school or track day in the rain. You are going to build an intimate relationship with how the car will handle at the limits in the rain. You will also sharpen your skills at getting the car back when it gets out of sorts.
Dry or rain its the same experience but what you will realize is the cars with the bigger brakes and light weight chassis with performance suspension allows you shorter stopping distances, better accident avoidance and better control at higher speeds during emergency maneuvering.
These attributes are indeed valuable on your daily commute.
Even if you track a Prius you are probably better at avoiding and reacting to mishaps on your daily drive. Skills learned on the track improve your reaction ability and proper handling to avoid incidents on the street no matter the car. It's just an S2000 and its sports car attributes makes it more likely to be able to handle such incidents given the skills to do so.
If dan had 300 vs 240 in his S2k he'd enjoy it more if the vette guy has 500 vs 400 he enjoys it more. Do either need it HELL NO but POWER is FUN and I think most guys who drive sports car drive for fun not to avoid all those soccer moms in their suburbans.
There is no reason to belittle anyone who wants to drive a more powerful car, live in a bigger house etc....etc... different strokes for different folks
PS and just like Dan can feel all the little handling nuances at low speeds the big power guy feels all the power nuances at all speeds.
PSS To me after a driving a 300 rwhp 2700 pound FD the 220 rwhp S2K with less feel and handling isn't going to register the same grin , which is why I sold the S2k and bought another FD
02-17-14, 12:36 PM
#1704
Full Member
While this is a valid point in general, I'd give Mazda the benefit of the doubt: let's see what they can do with a completely new engine design before throwing the towel.
Andrea.
02-17-14, 01:11 PM
#1705
this is true. FUN is ephemeral though, the stock FD is really fun, nothing in the universe is like it, however adding a big single and doubling the HP, usually makes it LESS fun. the FD in the FD is because you get the second turbo kick, not because its fast.
i also agree the faster you go, the scarier it gets, my friend has a 340hp miata, and that thing is a little past crazy.
i also agree the faster you go, the scarier it gets, my friend has a 340hp miata, and that thing is a little past crazy.
I think the whole single turbo comment maybe USED to be true when the only kits were T78's, but modern quick spooling single turbos are fantastic. I still have twin turbos, but they're making about 375@the wheels in street trim and I wouldn't want to go back to less—but it's not the single turbo kick that does it for me. It's the power, and I do like that turbocharged cars feel like they build power to redline vs. the linear feel of a push rod V8 for instance.
I think there's a certain truth to the notion that the faster your car is (both from a power AND handling perspective), the harder it is to find room to safely enjoy it on the street (enjoying meaning getting near it's limits). I used to have a '76 Volkswagen Scirocco, and had loads of fun on the windy back roads in Great Falls... those same roads aren't as much fun now, because they're too twisty and bumpy for my RX7, but I'm also not a teenager and I'm more aware of the potential for people or other cars to be where they shouldn't be. The RX7 is more fun other places though. I mostly save it for the track, and would no matter what I'm driving now.
I'll tell you, of all the things I've done to my car in the name of speed on track, the only thing that really has made it less fun on the street is the super-stiff springs I need to run fat Hoosiers. It tends to make the car skittish on the road and on less than perfect pavement. Certainly not the power. That's GREAT. I'll eventually go single turbo for more.
02-17-14, 01:19 PM
#1706
Senior Member
This is true, particularly on the track. Still, on the street, tbh my 240hp S2k is more fun to drive than my 500+hp FD... Somewhat related to the LS swap, including unnecessarily heavy clutch (I would have gone with OEM LS2 clutch), a "tune" that has a hard time with very small throttle inputs (murder in town on the street), and the T56 trans (positive feel, but very CHUNK-CHUNK vs. the s2k's snick-snick). But also due to the FD's slow steering rack. Would REALLY love to put an AP1 rack in it... On the track, the super-FD is a LOT more entertaining and, urm, *interesting*!
Speaking for myself, on the *street*, even unpopulated backroads, I pretty much never use all of the power available even in the S2000. It just seems kinda pointless since I know I'm going to give myself a much bigger safety net, so I won't be threshold braking and cornering right on the limit, I'll be at most at ~75% maximum grip. And honestly, at that level, I'm far enough away from the interesting and FUN behavior you get right at the limit that it doesn't give me any greater thrill to blast down the straightaways. The overall intensity that I get at the track just isn't there. It's more of a relaxing/leisure activity than real max-performance driving.
That's fine, except that MOST people who buy 400/500/638 hp Corvettes are not even remotely qualified to drive them at the limits and won't take them to the track anyway. For most, it's an ego thing. These are the dudes who'll GUN it for 100 ft on the street and then back off, and will YANK the wheel doing a simple lane-change, thinking that they're really appreciating their megaperforming car. 
See above comments. Most "big power guys" don't have any concept. Admittedly most Miata buyers don't have any concept either, but at least they don't feel like they have to have 400/500hp or be able to point to performance stats to enjoy a sports car.
I swapped cars with a friend at New Hampshire Motor Speedway earlier this year. he had a well-prepped stock-engine S2000 track car with splitter and wing, and of course I had my white FD street car on street tires (still had the Tein SS coilovers at the time, not exactly optimal suspension...).
We both got out of the other's car with HUGE ****-eating grins. Mine had practically infinite power everywhere on the tight track, his was fricking GLUED to the track everywhere.
His car was faster, btw, by about 0.5 seconds in the TT. STUPID easy to drive and HUGELY fun, but in a totally different way from the 500hp FD. Probably carried 5-10mph faster cornering speeds, foot flat on the floor between corners, vs. tip-toeing around in the FD on street tires with no rear downforce and tipping into the gas pedal with extreme care on corner exit, as if there's an egg between foot and throttle, and then spinning the rear wheels anyway. wheee!
Anyway, for me, stock vs. stock or mod vs. mod, the S2000 does not have "less feel" or inferior handling vs. than the FD. IMO, it made a very good successor to the FD. Similar performance at a lower relative price point. To me, that's progress!
But yeah, if/when mine becomes a track car, i'll be looking to supercharge it or somethin....
if the vette guy has 500 vs 400 he enjoys it more. Do either need it HELL NO but POWER is FUN and I think most guys who drive sports car drive for fun not to avoid all those soccer moms in their suburbans.
There is no reason to belittle anyone who wants to drive a more powerful car, live in a bigger house etc....etc... different strokes for different folks
PS and just like Dan can feel all the little handling nuances at low speeds the big power guy feels all the power nuances at all speeds.
PSS To me after a driving a 300 rwhp 2700 pound FD the 220 rwhp S2K with less feel and handling isn't going to register the same grin , which is why I sold the S2k and bought another FD
We both got out of the other's car with HUGE ****-eating grins. Mine had practically infinite power everywhere on the tight track, his was fricking GLUED to the track everywhere.
His car was faster, btw, by about 0.5 seconds in the TT. STUPID easy to drive and HUGELY fun, but in a totally different way from the 500hp FD. Probably carried 5-10mph faster cornering speeds, foot flat on the floor between corners, vs. tip-toeing around in the FD on street tires with no rear downforce and tipping into the gas pedal with extreme care on corner exit, as if there's an egg between foot and throttle, and then spinning the rear wheels anyway. wheee!
Anyway, for me, stock vs. stock or mod vs. mod, the S2000 does not have "less feel" or inferior handling vs. than the FD. IMO, it made a very good successor to the FD. Similar performance at a lower relative price point. To me, that's progress!
But yeah, if/when mine becomes a track car, i'll be looking to supercharge it or somethin....
Last edited by ZDan; 02-17-14 at 01:26 PM.
02-17-14, 01:41 PM
#1708
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I think the whole single turbo comment maybe USED to be true when the only kits were T78's, but modern quick spooling single turbos are fantastic. I still have twin turbos, but they're making about 375@the wheels in street trim and I wouldn't want to go back to less—but it's not the single turbo kick that does it for me. It's the power, and I do like that turbocharged cars feel like they build power to redline vs. the linear feel of a push rod V8 for instance.
I think there's a certain truth to the notion that the faster your car is (both from a power AND handling perspective), the harder it is to find room to safely enjoy it on the street (enjoying meaning getting near it's limits). I used to have a '76 Volkswagen Scirocco, and had loads of fun on the windy back roads in Great Falls... those same roads aren't as much fun now, because they're too twisty and bumpy for my RX7, but I'm also not a teenager and I'm more aware of the potential for people or other cars to be where they shouldn't be. The RX7 is more fun other places though. I mostly save it for the track, and would no matter what I'm driving now.
I'll tell you, of all the things I've done to my car in the name of speed on track, the only thing that really has made it less fun on the street is the super-stiff springs I need to run fat Hoosiers. It tends to make the car skittish on the road and on less than perfect pavement. Certainly not the power. That's GREAT. I'll eventually go single turbo for more.
I think there's a certain truth to the notion that the faster your car is (both from a power AND handling perspective), the harder it is to find room to safely enjoy it on the street (enjoying meaning getting near it's limits). I used to have a '76 Volkswagen Scirocco, and had loads of fun on the windy back roads in Great Falls... those same roads aren't as much fun now, because they're too twisty and bumpy for my RX7, but I'm also not a teenager and I'm more aware of the potential for people or other cars to be where they shouldn't be. The RX7 is more fun other places though. I mostly save it for the track, and would no matter what I'm driving now.
I'll tell you, of all the things I've done to my car in the name of speed on track, the only thing that really has made it less fun on the street is the super-stiff springs I need to run fat Hoosiers. It tends to make the car skittish on the road and on less than perfect pavement. Certainly not the power. That's GREAT. I'll eventually go single turbo for more.
02-17-14, 01:45 PM
#1709
I suggest: IMPORTANT, shove this thread up Mazda's ***, pull out a wankel and don't forget to wipe because nobody wants another mess like the RX8
Clearly nothing better to drivel about on a rotary car club forum than discussing the next rotary powered car or cars in general over most other topics; I know weird
Clearly nothing better to drivel about on a rotary car club forum than discussing the next rotary powered car or cars in general over most other topics; I know weird
02-17-14, 01:50 PM
#1710
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we had a fun example of this. my friend had an FD that was pretty fully built, by 1999 standards, all the bolt ons, full suspension, we stuffed 295's on the back, it was a base, but we pulled out some interior parts, and the ac and ps. it wasn't the fastest thing in a straight line, but it was very easy to drive in the hills or at the track, overall it was a nice quick car (actually it still is)
so the next car that got added to the stable was a bug eye sprite. for anyone under the age of 70, its a teeny British sports car, they were something like 1400lbs, and i think it had 65hp stock, so its a huge snore right?
in a straight line i think you could outrun the sprite on foot, 65hp just isn't very much.
however, since the car is TEENY, and LIGHT, you can take a full racing line in a normal sized lane.
so if there was an A to B stretch with turns, the FD driver had to work a hard to keep up
so the next car that got added to the stable was a bug eye sprite. for anyone under the age of 70, its a teeny British sports car, they were something like 1400lbs, and i think it had 65hp stock, so its a huge snore right?
in a straight line i think you could outrun the sprite on foot, 65hp just isn't very much.
however, since the car is TEENY, and LIGHT, you can take a full racing line in a normal sized lane.
so if there was an A to B stretch with turns, the FD driver had to work a hard to keep up
02-17-14, 02:10 PM
#1711
we had a fun example of this. my friend had an FD that was pretty fully built, by 1999 standards, all the bolt ons, full suspension, we stuffed 295's on the back, it was a base, but we pulled out some interior parts, and the ac and ps. it wasn't the fastest thing in a straight line, but it was very easy to drive in the hills or at the track, overall it was a nice quick car (actually it still is)
so the next car that got added to the stable was a bug eye sprite. for anyone under the age of 70, its a teeny British sports car, they were something like 1400lbs, and i think it had 65hp stock, so its a huge snore right?
in a straight line i think you could outrun the sprite on foot, 65hp just isn't very much.
however, since the car is TEENY, and LIGHT, you can take a full racing line in a normal sized lane.
so if there was an A to B stretch with turns, the FD driver had to work a hard to keep up
so the next car that got added to the stable was a bug eye sprite. for anyone under the age of 70, its a teeny British sports car, they were something like 1400lbs, and i think it had 65hp stock, so its a huge snore right?
in a straight line i think you could outrun the sprite on foot, 65hp just isn't very much.
however, since the car is TEENY, and LIGHT, you can take a full racing line in a normal sized lane.
so if there was an A to B stretch with turns, the FD driver had to work a hard to keep up
might of be underexagerating BTW
02-18-14, 10:07 AM
#1713
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I think the whole single turbo comment maybe USED to be true when the only kits were T78's, but modern quick spooling single turbos are fantastic. I still have twin turbos, but they're making about 375@the wheels in street trim and I wouldn't want to go back to less—but it's not the single turbo kick that does it for me. It's the power, and I do like that turbocharged cars feel like they build power to redline vs. the linear feel of a push rod V8 for instance.
I think there's a certain truth to the notion that the faster your car is (both from a power AND handling perspective), the harder it is to find room to safely enjoy it on the street (enjoying meaning getting near it's limits). I used to have a '76 Volkswagen Scirocco, and had loads of fun on the windy back roads in Great Falls... those same roads aren't as much fun now, because they're too twisty and bumpy for my RX7, but I'm also not a teenager and I'm more aware of the potential for people or other cars to be where they shouldn't be. The RX7 is more fun other places though. I mostly save it for the track, and would no matter what I'm driving now.
I'll tell you, of all the things I've done to my car in the name of speed on track, the only thing that really has made it less fun on the street is the super-stiff springs I need to run fat Hoosiers. It tends to make the car skittish on the road and on less than perfect pavement. Certainly not the power. That's GREAT. I'll eventually go single turbo for more.
I think there's a certain truth to the notion that the faster your car is (both from a power AND handling perspective), the harder it is to find room to safely enjoy it on the street (enjoying meaning getting near it's limits). I used to have a '76 Volkswagen Scirocco, and had loads of fun on the windy back roads in Great Falls... those same roads aren't as much fun now, because they're too twisty and bumpy for my RX7, but I'm also not a teenager and I'm more aware of the potential for people or other cars to be where they shouldn't be. The RX7 is more fun other places though. I mostly save it for the track, and would no matter what I'm driving now.
I'll tell you, of all the things I've done to my car in the name of speed on track, the only thing that really has made it less fun on the street is the super-stiff springs I need to run fat Hoosiers. It tends to make the car skittish on the road and on less than perfect pavement. Certainly not the power. That's GREAT. I'll eventually go single turbo for more.
And YES you reach a point of grip and speed where having fun on the street isn't worth the risk/reward. Which is why I prefer the 300 HP FD with regular size decent rubber because I go well beyond the traction level on a regular basis.
280
300zx
S2k
FD
GT3 (996 and 997 rs)
The FD is the best sports car of the group
02-18-14, 10:25 AM
#1714
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the FD easily does 125 in a 25mph zone....
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush... (once that gets old you can turn the steering wheel, instrument of terror)
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush... (once that gets old you can turn the steering wheel, instrument of terror)
02-18-14, 10:36 AM
#1715
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the FD easily does 125 in a 25mph zone....
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush...
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush...
I use to autocross with a heavily modded 930 turbo car and it was quick in a straight line for sure but nobody could make that car go fast anywhere else LOL
02-18-14, 10:42 AM
#1716
the FD easily does 125 in a 25mph zone....
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush... (once that gets old you can turn the steering wheel, instrument of terror)
actually though if you want an exciting car buy a 930 turbo, the FD is actually faster, but the Porsche is more exciting.
the power band is like an on/off switch, and the gearing is so bad, that it turns off between shifts, but its exciting.
under 4500rpm, you can outrun it, between 4501 and redline, it pulls like crazy, shift, rpm drops to 4000ish, and you wait, (and wait) and then it is rocket-ship again.
a good STOCK FD would be long gone, but the Porsche driver is having a huge adrenaline rush... (once that gets old you can turn the steering wheel, instrument of terror)
I get more smiles per hour out of driving my FD then I can afford .
I know the FD is no state of the art supercar . But when i drive the FD I dont feel it lacks anything . I dont feel the car needs state of the art magnetic suspension , Or some E diff , or a padals on the steering wheel .. it feels perfect to me. enough power to make me $h!T my pants if I wanted to . and its just fun to drive everywhere around a corner around a street at 35 mph even my ugly *** paintjob draws attention .. well maybe its because of said ugly *** paintjob
I'd like to see a prius do that! LOL
but point is its just a fun car all around. and I think everyone wants the successor to be better .. not worse. after driving my 300 hp FD . I drove in a stock FD . and it felt .. dull compared to mine . I mean it was still the same car still felt the transition still Felt fun . But when isat in mine again i felt at home .
I feel we all want the same thing we dont want to buy a car that when we drive it we think . OH this is FUN! , but my fd is still better!
02-18-14, 10:49 AM
#1717
I highlighted the keyword of that sentence: prior. In that they needed all of the (then) modern anti pollution technologies to clean up an engine that, at its core, was about 40 years old back then (many of the Renesis' critical dimensions date back to the original 10A engine of 1967).
While this is a valid point in general, I'd give Mazda the benefit of the doubt: let's see what they can do with a completely new engine design before throwing the towel.
Andrea.
While this is a valid point in general, I'd give Mazda the benefit of the doubt: let's see what they can do with a completely new engine design before throwing the towel.
Andrea.
02-18-14, 11:02 AM
#1718
and is that really a bad thing ? I mean its what I had said initially to pass emission car probably has to have about 8 cats from downpipe back . swap it out and tune , and maybe you get 50 more HP haha cars only need to pass emissions once a year just need a tune , and exhaust for said event.
02-18-14, 11:17 AM
#1719
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Yep, even a t04e is a nice smooth turbo but the bb stuff today is almost as quick as the 99 twins.
And YES you reach a point of grip and speed where having fun on the street isn't worth the risk/reward. Which is why I prefer the 300 HP FD with regular size decent rubber because I go well beyond the traction level on a regular basis.
280
300zx
S2k
FD
GT3 (996 and 997 rs)
The FD is the best sports car of the group
And YES you reach a point of grip and speed where having fun on the street isn't worth the risk/reward. Which is why I prefer the 300 HP FD with regular size decent rubber because I go well beyond the traction level on a regular basis.
280
300zx
S2k
FD
GT3 (996 and 997 rs)
The FD is the best sports car of the group
02-18-14, 11:28 AM
#1720
Rotary Enthusiast
The Lotus Evora S is not bad either, but I'd prefer an Exige if they could make it street legal here. Both are pricey, though, and their Toyota engines aren't as sexy as the rotary.
Last edited by HiWire; 02-18-14 at 11:31 AM.
02-18-14, 12:19 PM
#1722
Full Member
In fact, up to some time ago, whenever someone from Mazda talked about the future rotary, the main roadblock was emissions. Now, in the last few instances (last year's Tokyo motor show and these months' articles about the rumored 600cc 250hp engine), it became a profitability matter.
If this shift is accurate, my guess is that emissions are now under control and they are starting to think about selling the product, now that they know they can get it to work. An additional proof is the Mazda 2 RE hybrid: they wouldn't have spent money to develop it if they knew the generator would not be able to pass existing emission standards.
By the way, does anyone know of a detailed comparison of worldwide gasoline emission standards? I found one for diesel engines, and it seems that US, Euro and Japan standards for diesel emissions are converging. And I also happened to hear that japan is planning to harmonize its emission standards with the Euro standards.
If this is happening for gasoline regulations too, then the idea of not selling the car in some markets to circumvent the regulations becomes moot.
Andrea.
02-18-14, 03:04 PM
#1723
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In fact, up to some time ago, whenever someone from Mazda talked about the future rotary, the main roadblock was emissions. Now, in the last few instances (last year's Tokyo motor show and these months' articles about the rumored 600cc 250hp engine), it became a profitability matter.
By the way, does anyone know of a detailed comparison of worldwide gasoline emission standards? I found one for diesel engines, and it seems that US, Euro and Japan standards for diesel emissions are converging. And I also happened to hear that japan is planning to harmonize its emission standards with the Euro standards.
If this is happening for gasoline regulations too, then the idea of not selling the car in some markets to circumvent the regulations becomes moot.
Andrea.[/QUOTE]
this came up last night, and short answer is no. long answer is that the US gas mileage targets get really strict very shortly, so a Mazda Vette killer, might not be doable on that basis...
in california, it gets stupid (when is it not?) as we've legislated that 20% of the cars on the road need to be electric, i think by this year. so since its stupid, there is an electric car credit, and since Tesla has most of them, its been selling them.
If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We'd All Save Some Money - Forbes
"Tesla didn’t generate a profit by selling sexy cars, but rather by selling sleazy emissions “credits,” mandated by the state of California’s electric vehicle requirements. The competition, like Honda, doesn’t have a mass market plug-in to meet the mandate and therefore must buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The bill for last quarter was $68 million. Absent this shakedown of potential car buyers, Tesla would have lost $57 million, or $11,400 per car. As the company sold 5,000 cars in the quarter, though, $13,600 per car was paid by other manufacturers, who are going to pass at least some of that cost on to buyers of their products. Folks in the new car market are likely paying a bit more than simply the direct tax subsidy."
don't feel bad for us, we did this on purpose.
02-19-14, 06:56 AM
#1725
Full Member
I'd love to be proven wrong though
this came up last night, and short answer is no. long answer is that the US gas mileage targets get really strict very shortly, so a Mazda Vette killer, might not be doable on that basis...
in california, it gets stupid (when is it not?) as we've legislated that 20% of the cars on the road need to be electric, i think by this year. so since its stupid, there is an electric car credit, and since Tesla has most of them, its been selling them.
If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We'd All Save Some Money - Forbes
"Tesla didn’t generate a profit by selling sexy cars, but rather by selling sleazy emissions “credits,” mandated by the state of California’s electric vehicle requirements. The competition, like Honda, doesn’t have a mass market plug-in to meet the mandate and therefore must buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The bill for last quarter was $68 million. Absent this shakedown of potential car buyers, Tesla would have lost $57 million, or $11,400 per car. As the company sold 5,000 cars in the quarter, though, $13,600 per car was paid by other manufacturers, who are going to pass at least some of that cost on to buyers of their products. Folks in the new car market are likely paying a bit more than simply the direct tax subsidy."
don't feel bad for us, we did this on purpose.
in california, it gets stupid (when is it not?) as we've legislated that 20% of the cars on the road need to be electric, i think by this year. so since its stupid, there is an electric car credit, and since Tesla has most of them, its been selling them.
If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We'd All Save Some Money - Forbes
"Tesla didn’t generate a profit by selling sexy cars, but rather by selling sleazy emissions “credits,” mandated by the state of California’s electric vehicle requirements. The competition, like Honda, doesn’t have a mass market plug-in to meet the mandate and therefore must buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The bill for last quarter was $68 million. Absent this shakedown of potential car buyers, Tesla would have lost $57 million, or $11,400 per car. As the company sold 5,000 cars in the quarter, though, $13,600 per car was paid by other manufacturers, who are going to pass at least some of that cost on to buyers of their products. Folks in the new car market are likely paying a bit more than simply the direct tax subsidy."
don't feel bad for us, we did this on purpose.
). I know about the CAFE roadmap, but that refers to the weighted average fuel economy for a given manufacturer as far as I know. A limited run 3 rotor 370hp rotary shouldn't affect the average that much, and a less lmited 250hp 2 rotor wouldn't affect it that much more than, say, a BRZ does for Subaru.However, that's not what I was asking about. I was interested in emission limits, as in "no more than x grams of NOx and y of HC per km or mile". That's the tricky part to meet IMHO.
Andrea.